Performance/Economy: Megasquirt, Cryogenics, Water Injection, lean burn O2,Firestorm?
11-23-2005, 07:47 PM
#91
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Misinformation filter applied to quoted text leaving the stuff that is real.
Here's why:
[I] Firestorm plugs claim 24:1 and up to 40:1 AFR. Not my claims, check the firestorm plug discussion. http://www.robertstanley.biz/firestorm.htm
[II]. For all intents and purposes the point being wideband technology may require modification to read up to 40:1 to work with firestorm.
3. Water injection increasing power
Try it yourself and them give some comments. Suggest leaning out the car which increasing timing just below the point of detonation with water injection adding compression via conversion to steam, keeping the engine clean and removing carbon deposits. The engine temps ensuring too oil doesn't evaporate or thin and burn as part of combustion.
Suitable discussion at http://www.waterinjection.info/phpBB2/ from those with hands on experience.
4. NB sensors can be used as tuning device
Try it on any of the 1995+ narrowband sensors and then provide real comments.
Cutting out carpet/jacking up your: yep go for it. Cut up your carpet. Come back to us and let us know how successful you. I somehow predict not much real gains.
sjsj
Originally Posted by klatinn
Hi all,
I read this thread, had some good laughs, and have until now resisted from posting, but what the heck. Let's insert some .... here
2. Widebands reading only to 30 AFR.
Some controllers limit their readout to 20 or 30 AFR.
3. Water injection increasing power
Not in an unmodified engine.
Regards,
Klaus
I read this thread, had some good laughs, and have until now resisted from posting, but what the heck. Let's insert some .... here
2. Widebands reading only to 30 AFR.
Some controllers limit their readout to 20 or 30 AFR.
3. Water injection increasing power
Not in an unmodified engine.
Regards,
Klaus
[I] Firestorm plugs claim 24:1 and up to 40:1 AFR. Not my claims, check the firestorm plug discussion. http://www.robertstanley.biz/firestorm.htm
[II]. For all intents and purposes the point being wideband technology may require modification to read up to 40:1 to work with firestorm.
3. Water injection increasing power
Try it yourself and them give some comments. Suggest leaning out the car which increasing timing just below the point of detonation with water injection adding compression via conversion to steam, keeping the engine clean and removing carbon deposits. The engine temps ensuring too oil doesn't evaporate or thin and burn as part of combustion.
Suitable discussion at http://www.waterinjection.info/phpBB2/ from those with hands on experience.
4. NB sensors can be used as tuning device
Try it on any of the 1995+ narrowband sensors and then provide real comments.
Cutting out carpet/jacking up your: yep go for it. Cut up your carpet. Come back to us and let us know how successful you. I somehow predict not much real gains.
sjsj
11-23-2005, 07:53 PM
#92
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Originally Posted by klatinn
A fuel saving tip I found on another forum should be here also. The poster noted that his fuel gauge shows a much fuller tank when going downhill. He (correctly) concluded the engine uses less fuel when going downhill. His suggested solution, keeping with the spirit of this here thread of new approaches, was to jack up the rear suspension so the engine is "fooled" into thinking it goes downhill and therefore requires less fuel.
Regards,
Klaus
11-23-2005, 08:24 PM
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Originally Posted by sjsj
Try it on any of the 1995+ narrowband sensors and then provide real comments.
sjsj
sjsj
11-23-2005, 08:40 PM
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Originally Posted by klatinn
I am an engineer working in designing O2 sensor controller systems. At some point in my career I was involved in DESIGNING O2 sensors. It's my job to understand these things. The year of the sensor does not matter. The physics and chemistry does.
You may find the following inexpensive narrowband o2 sensor display could helps in substantiating such claims. It provides output of 11.8 to 20.6 AFR range for petrol. It's dot/display transfer function viewable here http://www.techedge.com.au/vehicle/w.../FMD_curve.gif . Not too expensive to provide proof of idea either:
[US/Can]
http://www.jaycarelectronics.com/pro...Max=&SUBCATID=
$39.95
http://www.jaycar.com.au/productView...Max=&SUBCATID=
$62.95 [AUS/NZ]
Detailed discussion of how it works and how accurate it is against say a wideband at various different exhaust gas tempertures included. Highly recommended being the inexpensive EA ford o2 sensor available in Australia.
* Further reading perhaps? *
Well worth getting is Silicon Chips's "Performance Electronics For Cars" , reviewed at http://autospeed.drive.com.au/cms/A_2457/article.html including details on how the O2 sensor works. It explains the basics of car electronics then gives and explains a stack of electronic circuits kits to modify the car operations to bring up to your needs and the 21st century. Jaycar stock the kits mentioned in the book and the book iitself. This is worth it's weight in gold IMHO, but what makes it extra nice is its pretty inexpensive. See below:
[US/Canada]
http://www.jaycarelectronics.com/pro...Max=&SUBCATID=
$15US
[AUS/NZ]
http://www.jaycar.com.au/productView...Max=&SUBCATID=
$20AUS
NOTE: not affiliated with Jaycar or any other products suggested here. Just sharing for inexpensive solutions for experimentation and self-education.
sjsj
11-23-2005, 08:58 PM
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Hi,
All your links are CLAIMS of working, nothing substantiated.
The books you mentioned are hobbyists books. I doubt VERY much that much of the stuff in it has been actually researched.
Do you REALLY think OEMs would go to more expensive wideband sensors if the same can be had from a cheap narrowband?
In vehicle production any penny counts in todays market.
But your links show again that there's more snake-oil sold in the automotive aftermarket than in any other industry.
As to the O2 sensor curve posted:
What most people don't understand (and I include the people who design the NB based "meters") is that the sensor curve is NOT a property of the sensor itself. It is just an O2 detector. The combustion process itself produces a large jump in leftover O2 content of many orders of magnitude at the stoichiometric point. That's reflected in the "jump" in the curve of the O2 sensor. Because of that, it's also pointless to try to modify the curve of a NBO2 sensor to have it run at a different AFR. With a wideband it's of course possible to SIMULATE a narrowband with a switchpoint at any desired AFR.
BTW: the only "narrowband" sensor that can be used to measure AFR in a "limited" range is the Bosch LSM11 sensor. But ONLY if combined with a very sophisticated and expensive temperature compensation controller.
You are of course free to believe anything you want. But then your claims fall into the category "religion", not science.
OK, that's my last post on this subject. Not worth my time.
All your links are CLAIMS of working, nothing substantiated.
The books you mentioned are hobbyists books. I doubt VERY much that much of the stuff in it has been actually researched.
Do you REALLY think OEMs would go to more expensive wideband sensors if the same can be had from a cheap narrowband?
In vehicle production any penny counts in todays market.
But your links show again that there's more snake-oil sold in the automotive aftermarket than in any other industry.
As to the O2 sensor curve posted:
What most people don't understand (and I include the people who design the NB based "meters") is that the sensor curve is NOT a property of the sensor itself. It is just an O2 detector. The combustion process itself produces a large jump in leftover O2 content of many orders of magnitude at the stoichiometric point. That's reflected in the "jump" in the curve of the O2 sensor. Because of that, it's also pointless to try to modify the curve of a NBO2 sensor to have it run at a different AFR. With a wideband it's of course possible to SIMULATE a narrowband with a switchpoint at any desired AFR.
BTW: the only "narrowband" sensor that can be used to measure AFR in a "limited" range is the Bosch LSM11 sensor. But ONLY if combined with a very sophisticated and expensive temperature compensation controller.
You are of course free to believe anything you want. But then your claims fall into the category "religion", not science.
OK, that's my last post on this subject. Not worth my time.
11-23-2005, 09:28 PM
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Originally Posted by klatinn
Hi,
All your links are CLAIMS of working, nothing substantiated.
The books you mentioned are hobbyists books.
....
You are of course free to believe anything you want. But then your claims fall into the category "religion", not science.
OK, that's my last post on this subject. Not worth my time.
All your links are CLAIMS of working, nothing substantiated.
The books you mentioned are hobbyists books.
....
You are of course free to believe anything you want. But then your claims fall into the category "religion", not science.
OK, that's my last post on this subject. Not worth my time.
That's right, people on this forum are free to believe and find out for themselves without being presented misinformation under the guise of 'I'm an engineer, you should trust me'. Of course those people involved in creating the documents linked above, listed below:
- http://www.techedge.com.au
- http://www.siliconchip.com.au
- http://www.jaycar.com.au
are all religious organisations wishing you to subscribe to their doctrines on electronic engineering, with one electronic engineer who is the messiah.
Snake-oil? Don't think so. Real, tested, proven and marketed precision electronic engineering done at the most inexpensive price-point. Yes. Yes and in case you didn't get it the first two times, YES!
sjsj
