3.09 ring & pinion
11-05-2005, 12:07 PM
#46
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by Malibu310
I also would be interested in the new ratio... will it work on my 87S4 Automatic???
Hammer
11-05-2005, 07:57 PM
#49
Rennlist Member
so, after a real low new first gear (and i should say our 1st are pretty low anyway, especially with regards to grip on a street car) the difference of 2nd through 5th is what?????? 
going back to the 80mph comparison. hmmmm,, what gear are you in with the "3.09 " box??? get this, both cars have the same ratios gears to choose from at almost any speed up to 120mph, as long as its past 30mph!!!! (ie all that is effectively done is that you get this " .5" 1st gear and all the other gears are pretty close! So, if thats the most fun, you are clearly fooling yourself as both a stock S4 and a 3.09 S4 would have the same ratios to choose from at 80mph!
again, ive posted the ratios many times effectively after the first gear change from 2.2 to a 3.09. what happens????? welll, you get this 12:1 or so 1st gear and then the 2nd gear just just what a 1st gear is on a stock 928 2.2. and the down side (and its a big downside) when you get to the new 4th gear (which is the same as the old 3rd) you approach 118mph. at that point, you shift ..................hm, the 2.2 box has a 68% drop for 5th where the old 4th has the 73% drop. Big torque difference to the wheels at that speed moving faster.
the moral of the story is , if you can take advantage of the launch of the new 1st gear with a 3.09, great. just make sure your top speed accelerating will never have to get you caught above 118mph. (ie , the redline of the old 3rd and the new 3.09 4th)
However, i find it hard to imagine that any 928 on the street is running mickey thompson slicks in the rear!
How about this, someone with a stock s4 or an equal hp modified 928 hp, runs a Quarter mile and compares their times to a stock 928 gear box.
Again, if you dont change the gear spacing, youre talking about rounding errors. all second order stuff!
Let me show my work again:
stock S4 with 3.09
12.5 (50% better than stock s4 1st gear, but to half the speed)
8.3 (4% taller than S4 1st gear )
5.9 (exactly the same as stock s4 2nd gear)
4.5 (close to the same as stock S4 3rd gear. 2% diff.)
3.09 ( acutally 4% taller than a stock s4 4th gear)
Stock S4 with no change
8.9
5.9
4.24
3.2 4th gear that will get you to close to 155mph depending on tire size at redline
MK
going back to the 80mph comparison. hmmmm,, what gear are you in with the "3.09 " box??? get this, both cars have the same ratios gears to choose from at almost any speed up to 120mph, as long as its past 30mph!!!! (ie all that is effectively done is that you get this " .5" 1st gear and all the other gears are pretty close! So, if thats the most fun, you are clearly fooling yourself as both a stock S4 and a 3.09 S4 would have the same ratios to choose from at 80mph!
again, ive posted the ratios many times effectively after the first gear change from 2.2 to a 3.09. what happens????? welll, you get this 12:1 or so 1st gear and then the 2nd gear just just what a 1st gear is on a stock 928 2.2. and the down side (and its a big downside) when you get to the new 4th gear (which is the same as the old 3rd) you approach 118mph. at that point, you shift ..................hm, the 2.2 box has a 68% drop for 5th where the old 4th has the 73% drop. Big torque difference to the wheels at that speed moving faster.
the moral of the story is , if you can take advantage of the launch of the new 1st gear with a 3.09, great. just make sure your top speed accelerating will never have to get you caught above 118mph. (ie , the redline of the old 3rd and the new 3.09 4th)
However, i find it hard to imagine that any 928 on the street is running mickey thompson slicks in the rear!
How about this, someone with a stock s4 or an equal hp modified 928 hp, runs a Quarter mile and compares their times to a stock 928 gear box.
Again, if you dont change the gear spacing, youre talking about rounding errors. all second order stuff!
Let me show my work again:
stock S4 with 3.09
12.5 (50% better than stock s4 1st gear, but to half the speed)
8.3 (4% taller than S4 1st gear )
5.9 (exactly the same as stock s4 2nd gear)
4.5 (close to the same as stock S4 3rd gear. 2% diff.)
3.09 ( acutally 4% taller than a stock s4 4th gear)
Stock S4 with no change
8.9
5.9
4.24
3.2 4th gear that will get you to close to 155mph depending on tire size at redline
MK
Originally Posted by Scott M.
I gave a little demonstration of a rolling 2nd gear burn out in the Frenzy parking lot Saturday. For the smash mouth type of driving I do, 3.09's are the ****s!
The most fun is on the interstate doing about 80 mph and some ricer fart machine gets a wild hair up his buttocks... just a small squize of the stupid pedal and toodles.
Kibort may this and Kibort may that, but he's never had the joy of driving 3.09's. To each hiis own. I like 'em but I am limited to ~145 top end. Enough for a lifetime ban on driving in most states.
The most fun is on the interstate doing about 80 mph and some ricer fart machine gets a wild hair up his buttocks... just a small squize of the stupid pedal and
toodles.Kibort may this and Kibort may that, but he's never had the joy of driving 3.09's. To each hiis own. I like 'em but I am limited to ~145 top end. Enough for a lifetime ban on driving in most states.
11-05-2005, 08:00 PM
#50
Rennlist Member
as was said before , any stock s4 has a 8.9:1 first gear than actually can do the burn out better vs the 3.09 in 2nd. (8.9 first vs 8.3 second on the 3.09)
Im not sure you guys are getting it. Its all pretty simple math. dont get caught up with the gear ratio designators like Sniper did (and is). its all about what ratio you have to select.
Mk
Im not sure you guys are getting it. Its all pretty simple math. dont get caught up with the gear ratio designators like Sniper did (and is). its all about what ratio you have to select.
Mk
Originally Posted by FlyingDog
Did that little chiropractic adjustment help your patient?
Were you on I-81 in VA today? I saw a black NSX with PA plates going north.
Were you on I-81 in VA today? I saw a black NSX with PA plates going north.
11-05-2005, 08:10 PM
#53
Rennlist Member
Gosh no! as it is and ive described before, both mark and joe run the 2.72s and can almost hit redling with 500rwhp at 170mph in their 5th gears. after going over this with most everyone earlier, a 3.09 on a GTS box basically buys you a 2.2 gear set to 155mph, giving ratio comparison below.
11.6 for the new 1st
and then its 8.9vs 7.7 for the 2nd vs 1st s4
5.9 vs the 5.53 for the 3rd vs 2nd S4
4.24 vs the 4.17 for the 4th vs 4rd s4
and then the ole 3.2 vs the 3.09 .
as you can see ESPECIALLY IN A RACE application, with no standing starts, a GTS with 3.09 is only good if you want close to S4 ratios over the useable speed range.
All this depends on the hp available. for Road america and 320 rear wheel hp, the 2.2 is kink as far as the best application. at laguna is pretty close, thunderhill and Sears point are ideal for the GTS box.
MK
QUOTE=Stan.Shaw@Excell.Net]Hey Dave C.,
But wouldn't the transmission on a bored & stroked GT2 race car just break the trasnmission more often?
I wonder if the rev limiter would be an issue at Road America in 5th.
Are Mark. A, Joe F. or Don H. running 3.09s? or do they want to?[/QUOTE]
11.6 for the new 1st
and then its 8.9vs 7.7 for the 2nd vs 1st s4
5.9 vs the 5.53 for the 3rd vs 2nd S4
4.24 vs the 4.17 for the 4th vs 4rd s4
and then the ole 3.2 vs the 3.09 .
as you can see ESPECIALLY IN A RACE application, with no standing starts, a GTS with 3.09 is only good if you want close to S4 ratios over the useable speed range.
All this depends on the hp available. for Road america and 320 rear wheel hp, the 2.2 is kink as far as the best application. at laguna is pretty close, thunderhill and Sears point are ideal for the GTS box.
MK
QUOTE=Stan.Shaw@Excell.Net]Hey Dave C.,
But wouldn't the transmission on a bored & stroked GT2 race car just break the trasnmission more often?
I wonder if the rev limiter would be an issue at Road America in 5th.
Are Mark. A, Joe F. or Don H. running 3.09s? or do they want to?[/QUOTE]
11-05-2005, 08:15 PM
#54
Rennlist Member
Yes, this is right on. if you want an engine transmission combo that just jumps to 27mph, 3.09 is the deal. but, from my experience and with others with decent hp cars, its pretty hard to take advantage of 12:1 1st gears, unless you have drag slicks (and have them warmed up too!)
MK
MK
Originally Posted by jyoon
imho only a car running drag slicks will benefit from this.
11-05-2005, 08:24 PM
#55
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Lifetime Rennlist
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All this depends on the hp available. for Road america and 320 rear wheel hp, the 2.2 is kink as far as the best application.
But at 305rwhp 2:63 is better
11-05-2005, 08:25 PM
#56
Rennlist Member
Because some of us out there dont want to see someone fool themselves and spend money on something may not do what they are trying to do base on mis-information.
why do some rennlisters post information on things they dont know about?
you make a statement that is partially wrong. right that no hp is made, and thats really the issue. how much hp can you put to the wheels over the operational range, and what is the gear set to do this. gear closeness and optimising the top speed expected to be at redlne in the final gear.
again, after 1st gear being much lower and questions about grip and whether you can take advantage of the new 1st gear, all other gears accelerate the mass of your car at the same rate, BECAUSE all the gears after 1st are matched with stock stock ratios with in a 1% or so.
If you stop and think about it for a second, you can see that this is correct. the real argument or discussion should be, can you get the grip to take advantage of a 12:1 1st gear. Know what, Audi did this, with their speedGT 550hp RS6! with 4x4 and 305s on all 4 corners, this was a deadly weapon on the standing starts. Mark anderson and others however, could barely control the hp to the wheels with 1sts in the 8-10:1 range.
Have you ever driven a 4x4 out of the hole in low??? man , its a rush. (for the first 25mph!)
mk
why do some rennlisters post information on things they dont know about?
you make a statement that is partially wrong. right that no hp is made, and thats really the issue. how much hp can you put to the wheels over the operational range, and what is the gear set to do this. gear closeness and optimising the top speed expected to be at redlne in the final gear.
again, after 1st gear being much lower and questions about grip and whether you can take advantage of the new 1st gear, all other gears accelerate the mass of your car at the same rate, BECAUSE all the gears after 1st are matched with stock stock ratios with in a 1% or so.
If you stop and think about it for a second, you can see that this is correct. the real argument or discussion should be, can you get the grip to take advantage of a 12:1 1st gear. Know what, Audi did this, with their speedGT 550hp RS6! with 4x4 and 305s on all 4 corners, this was a deadly weapon on the standing starts. Mark anderson and others however, could barely control the hp to the wheels with 1sts in the 8-10:1 range.
Have you ever driven a 4x4 out of the hole in low??? man , its a rush. (for the first 25mph!)
mk
Originally Posted by 6.0-928S
Why do Rennlisters, who are not interested in a particular modification, criticize those who do? If you don't want it, don't buy it! I don't give a damn if somebody wanted to put some steer horns on his 928 hood because he wanted the Texas Longhorns to win the BCS! That's stupid IMO. But it's none of my business so I wouldn't say a word unless asked. But for some reason everytime I see a 'lister say he wants to do a certain mod to his car, the critics come out of the woodwork.
A 3.09 gearset would cut a car's acceleration times from a standing start to redline. All things being equal, if a 928 with a 2.20 raced a 3.09 car in a QUARTER MILE race the 3.09 would win by A LOT! Yeah I know, that's because the gearset moved the engine power band in each gear to useable areas not because it increased engine power, but who cares if the goal is to win the race!
I think a little more tolerance of other's preferences is in order.
A 3.09 gearset would cut a car's acceleration times from a standing start to redline. All things being equal, if a 928 with a 2.20 raced a 3.09 car in a QUARTER MILE race the 3.09 would win by A LOT! Yeah I know, that's because the gearset moved the engine power band in each gear to useable areas not because it increased engine power, but who cares if the goal is to win the race!
I think a little more tolerance of other's preferences is in order.
11-05-2005, 08:27 PM
#57
Rennlist Member
your with me on the other stuff too, but we just cant get the thoughts conveyed on this list correctly. this is more of the same.
In person, or on a white board, this is a 10min discussion. on this list, its 30-300pages!
MK
I think I am with him on this one (this one)...
In person, or on a white board, this is a 10min discussion. on this list, its 30-300pages!
MK
Originally Posted by heinrich
I think I am with him on this one (this one)...
11-05-2005, 08:29 PM
#58
Rennlist Member
you may be right there. however, i dont know what the final ratios are, but if you have to change out of 4 to 5th down one of the 3 155mph straights, its not the right box. only you and JP would know that.
MK
MK
Originally Posted by John Veninger
But at 305rwhp 2:63 is better
11-05-2005, 09:05 PM
#60
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Everybody who has the 3.09 seems to enjoy it. I wonder why that is?
I like to enjoy my car on the street. I think most guys do. Track time for most of us is minimal. Money spent on a 3.09 set can be enjoyed every day on the street. When you pump money into your race car how much time are you on the track enjoying it? There are other perks in life besides the ones YOU approve of.
Some things can't be measured with a calculator!
Hammer
I like to enjoy my car on the street. I think most guys do. Track time for most of us is minimal. Money spent on a 3.09 set can be enjoyed every day on the street. When you pump money into your race car how much time are you on the track enjoying it? There are other perks in life besides the ones YOU approve of.
Some things can't be measured with a calculator!
Hammer