3.09 ring & pinion
11-14-2005, 12:54 PM
#256
928 Collector
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Remember mark, EVERY GEAR is pushing a smaller lever ALL THE TIME. By "smaller lever" I mean, a lever with less output length, ie a more efficient lever requiring less torque to move the output end.
11-14-2005, 01:02 PM
#257
928 Collector
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
It matters not mark but not necessarily. At the point a bullet LOSES its accelerating external force (explosion), it CONTINUES to accelerate until it hits its (what's it called again?) terminal velocity. At this point it will stop ACCELERATING and start DECELERATING.
A car continues accelerating but the RATE is lower.
EXAMPLE:
In space an object will continue infinitely accelerating until it hits something, with NO DRIVING FORCE.
A car continues accelerating but the RATE is lower.
EXAMPLE:
In space an object will continue infinitely accelerating until it hits something, with NO DRIVING FORCE.
Originally Posted by mark kibort
Ill give you a chance to think again. it stops ! if not, do you have some perpetual motion device to sell here!
actually in all serious, as soon as you put the clutch in , all acceleratoin stops. sure you still have momentum and kinetic engergy that has built up, but no acceleration until the engine meets the gears again. you recapture some of it with a speed shift but not near all of it!
MK
actually in all serious, as soon as you put the clutch in , all acceleratoin stops. sure you still have momentum and kinetic engergy that has built up, but no acceleration until the engine meets the gears again. you recapture some of it with a speed shift but not near all of it!
MK
11-14-2005, 01:06 PM
#258
Captain Obvious
Super User
Super User
Originally Posted by mark kibort
Ill give you a chance to think again. it stops ! if not, do you have some perpetual motion device to sell here!
actually in all serious, as soon as you put the clutch in , all acceleratoin stops. sure you still have momentum and kinetic engergy that has built up, but no acceleration until the engine meets the gears again. you recapture some of it with a speed shift but not near all of it!
MK
actually in all serious, as soon as you put the clutch in , all acceleratoin stops. sure you still have momentum and kinetic engergy that has built up, but no acceleration until the engine meets the gears again. you recapture some of it with a speed shift but not near all of it!
MK
Are you trying to tell me that for example, I take the car to red line in first gear and push in the clutch, the car will immediately stop accelerating? Wouldn’t the momentum keep the vehicle accelerate but at a much lower rate? It might feel as acceleration has stopped but in reality it doesn’t.
11-14-2005, 01:42 PM
#260
Originally Posted by BrianG
I've messed around with the spectrum of GM stock torque converters in a previous project. I found that the higher stall-speed units made general drivability an issue. It made it feel like you were slipping the clutch (as if attempting a fast launch with a standard-tranny car) at every roll off of a stop. For racing applications it's a good idea but for general street driving it's really irritating!!
11-14-2005, 01:47 PM
#261
Originally Posted by Imo000
Thank you so kindly for that second chance. Are you trying to tell me that for example, I take the car to red line in first gear and push in the clutch, the car will immediately stop accelerating? Wouldn’t the momentum keep the vehicle accelerate but at a much lower rate? It might feel as acceleration has stopped but in reality it doesn’t.
Are you trying to tell me that for example, I take the car to red line in first gear and push in the clutch, the car will immediately stop accelerating? Wouldn’t the momentum keep the vehicle accelerate but at a much lower rate? It might feel as acceleration has stopped but in reality it doesn’t.Even at the muzzle of a firearm for a very brief instant(a matter of miliseconds, depending on velocity and windspeed/direction) a projectile will continue to accelerate until air resistance overcomes the accelerative forces of the propellant and begins to slow the projectile.
Last edited by m21sniper; 11-14-2005 at 02:07 PM.
11-14-2005, 02:24 PM
#262
Rennlist Member
Heinrich, you should know better!!
Great analogy, but you got it ALL wrong. actually, a bullet has no acceleration after it leaves the muzzel. why, because there is no more accelerative forces applied after it leaves the gun. This is very similar to our discussion.
sorry MSniper, its not the way it works.
if this was true, heinrich, a bullet shot in space would eventually go light speed and beyond! terminal velocity is usually for falling objects when they reach a parity of aerodynamic resistance and gravity.
The physics police are coming to get you now! I tink the physics term you are looking for is a body in motion stays in motion until acted upon by another force. (not "stays accelerating"!)
MK
Great analogy, but you got it ALL wrong. actually, a bullet has no acceleration after it leaves the muzzel. why, because there is no more accelerative forces applied after it leaves the gun. This is very similar to our discussion.
sorry MSniper, its not the way it works.
if this was true, heinrich, a bullet shot in space would eventually go light speed and beyond! terminal velocity is usually for falling objects when they reach a parity of aerodynamic resistance and gravity.
The physics police are coming to get you now! I tink the physics term you are looking for is a body in motion stays in motion until acted upon by another force. (not "stays accelerating"!)
MK
Originally Posted by heinrich
It matters not mark but not necessarily. At the point a bullet LOSES its accelerating external force (explosion), it CONTINUES to accelerate until it hits its (what's it called again?) terminal velocity. At this point it will stop ACCELERATING and start DECELERATING.
A car continues accelerating but the RATE is lower.
EXAMPLE:
In space an object will continue infinitely accelerating until it hits something, with NO DRIVING FORCE.
A car continues accelerating but the RATE is lower.
EXAMPLE:
In space an object will continue infinitely accelerating until it hits something, with NO DRIVING FORCE.
11-14-2005, 02:27 PM
#263
Nordschleife Master
Wow. This is just too much.
There is no such "momentum of acceleration" as you guys are describing. If you push in the clutch, the car will begin to slow down immediately. It does not continue to accelerate or hold speed, it slows down. This is because the accelerating force has been removed and rolling friction and wind resistance are working against the motion of the vehicle.
F = ma. or a = F/m. No force means no acceleration and the effect is immediate.
This is true for all moving objects be they cars, bullets or space ships.
There is no such "momentum of acceleration" as you guys are describing. If you push in the clutch, the car will begin to slow down immediately. It does not continue to accelerate or hold speed, it slows down. This is because the accelerating force has been removed and rolling friction and wind resistance are working against the motion of the vehicle.
F = ma. or a = F/m. No force means no acceleration and the effect is immediate.
This is true for all moving objects be they cars, bullets or space ships.
11-14-2005, 02:28 PM
#264
Rennlist Member
well i guess it depends on the type of fire arm!
but, a non powered bullet, (meaning no rocket charge) will stop accelerating after it leaves the gun.
what you say below is incorrect. is this how you percieve the science to be, or do you know. be honest!
when you put the clutch in , all acceleration stops. if it doesnt, im REALLY wrong about all of the things in this discussion!
Mk
but, a non powered bullet, (meaning no rocket charge) will stop accelerating after it leaves the gun.
what you say below is incorrect. is this how you percieve the science to be, or do you know. be honest!
when you put the clutch in , all acceleration stops. if it doesnt, im REALLY wrong about all of the things in this discussion!
Mk
Originally Posted by m21sniper
A simple glance at the speedo as you shift would confirm that yes, you are still accelerating- albeit at a lower rate- when you shift gears, if only for a few seconds(at which point wind resistance or grade will cause deceleration).
Even at the muzzle of a firearm for a very brief instant(a matter of miliseconds, depending on velocity and windspeed/direction) a projectile will continue to accelerate until air resistance overcomes the accelerative forces of the propellant and begins to slow the projectile.
Even at the muzzle of a firearm for a very brief instant(a matter of miliseconds, depending on velocity and windspeed/direction) a projectile will continue to accelerate until air resistance overcomes the accelerative forces of the propellant and begins to slow the projectile.
11-14-2005, 02:29 PM
#265
Rennlist Member
Thank you !!!
fianally, a voice of reason!!!
MK
fianally, a voice of reason!!!
MK
Originally Posted by GlenL
Wow. This is just too much.
There is no such "momentum of acceleration" as you guys are describing. If you push in the clutch, the car will begin to slow down immediately. It does not continue to accelerate or hold speed, it slows down. This is because the accelerating force has been removed and rolling friction and wind resistance are working against the motion of the vehicle.
F = ma. or a = F/m. No force means no acceleration and the effect is immediate.
This is true for all moving objects be they cars, bullets or space ships.
There is no such "momentum of acceleration" as you guys are describing. If you push in the clutch, the car will begin to slow down immediately. It does not continue to accelerate or hold speed, it slows down. This is because the accelerating force has been removed and rolling friction and wind resistance are working against the motion of the vehicle.
F = ma. or a = F/m. No force means no acceleration and the effect is immediate.
This is true for all moving objects be they cars, bullets or space ships.
11-14-2005, 02:30 PM
#266
Captain Obvious
Super User
Super User
Originally Posted by GlenL
Wow. This is just too much.
There is no such "momentum of acceleration" as you guys are describing. If you push in the clutch, the car will begin to slow down immediately. It does not continue to accelerate or hold speed, it slows down. This is because the accelerating force has been removed and rolling friction and wind resistance are working against the motion of the vehicle.
F = ma. or a = F/m. No force means no acceleration and the effect is immediate.
This is true for all moving objects be they cars, bullets or space ships.
There is no such "momentum of acceleration" as you guys are describing. If you push in the clutch, the car will begin to slow down immediately. It does not continue to accelerate or hold speed, it slows down. This is because the accelerating force has been removed and rolling friction and wind resistance are working against the motion of the vehicle.
F = ma. or a = F/m. No force means no acceleration and the effect is immediate.
This is true for all moving objects be they cars, bullets or space ships.
Ok, in that case “I’ll reject reality and substitute my own”!
11-14-2005, 02:31 PM
#267
Rennlist Member
Thats exactly what i have been telling you.(and trying to tell MSniper!)
as soon as the clutch is put in , no more acceleration.
you see why im having such a hard time with this group? they are all forgetting the basics!!!
Mk
as soon as the clutch is put in , no more acceleration.
you see why im having such a hard time with this group? they are all forgetting the basics!!!
Mk
Originally Posted by Imo000
Thank you so kindly for that second chance. Are you trying to tell me that for example, I take the car to red line in first gear and push in the clutch, the car will immediately stop accelerating? Wouldn’t the momentum keep the vehicle accelerate but at a much lower rate? It might feel as acceleration has stopped but in reality it doesn’t.
Are you trying to tell me that for example, I take the car to red line in first gear and push in the clutch, the car will immediately stop accelerating? Wouldn’t the momentum keep the vehicle accelerate but at a much lower rate? It might feel as acceleration has stopped but in reality it doesn’t.
11-14-2005, 02:36 PM
#268
Captain Obvious
Super User
Super User
Originally Posted by mark kibort
Thats exactly what i have been telling you.(and trying to tell MSniper!)
as soon as the clutch is put in , no more acceleration.
you see why im having such a hard time with this group? they are all forgetting the basics!!!
Mk
as soon as the clutch is put in , no more acceleration.
you see why im having such a hard time with this group? they are all forgetting the basics!!!
Mk
Yup, after thinking about this, you guys are right. I kept picturing how I a vehicle would be approaching another one that is at a constant speed as opposed to actually thinking in terms of acceleration and deceleration.
11-14-2005, 02:37 PM
#269
Rennlist Member
Heinrich? sniper?
again, in summary, 3.09 has a sub-1st gear with 26% accelerative forces, vs a 2.2 S4 gear box in its 1st . after 39mph, both cars would be equal in acceleration, becuase each subsequent shift after 39mph would be almost identical to 155mph or so
any questions now??
MK
again, in summary, 3.09 has a sub-1st gear with 26% accelerative forces, vs a 2.2 S4 gear box in its 1st . after 39mph, both cars would be equal in acceleration, becuase each subsequent shift after 39mph would be almost identical to 155mph or so
any questions now??
MK
11-14-2005, 02:45 PM
#270
Rennlist Member
Heirich, go back and read your post a few days ago. you had it exactly right!
now, you are all wet again.
you now have to remember (or recall) that the "lever" depends on the final drive ratio, and it doesnt mater what the final drive ratio is callled or is changed to , as long as the gears ratio (total gear ratio ) along the way is the same. in the 3.09 from 2.2 case, you change 1st gear to the sub1st gear and all other gears are the same, meaning, they have the same ratio. same ratio means same leverage. effciency has nothing to do with it,(or little to do withit) many stages of gearing does reduce efficiency, but this is not the discussion.
MK
now, you are all wet again.
you now have to remember (or recall) that the "lever" depends on the final drive ratio, and it doesnt mater what the final drive ratio is callled or is changed to , as long as the gears ratio (total gear ratio ) along the way is the same. in the 3.09 from 2.2 case, you change 1st gear to the sub1st gear and all other gears are the same, meaning, they have the same ratio. same ratio means same leverage. effciency has nothing to do with it,(or little to do withit) many stages of gearing does reduce efficiency, but this is not the discussion.
MK
Originally Posted by heinrich
Remember mark, EVERY GEAR is pushing a smaller lever ALL THE TIME. By "smaller lever" I mean, a lever with less output length, ie a more efficient lever requiring less torque to move the output end.