3.09 ring & pinion
11-11-2005, 07:53 PM
#181
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by m21sniper
I admit that i'm certainly not explaining my position as good as i could be, but i also know that i'm absolutely correct.
When we switch to 3.09 and use 4 gears to the 2.2 cars 3, WE ARE more closely geared.
Each gear is stored or potential energy. If we use more of them, we WILL be faster.
In a drag race, the 3.09 car will use 4 gears, the 2.2 only 3.
The 3.09 car will win everytime assuming equal traction.
VERY roughly stated adding extra useful gears is akin to adding extra stages to a missile.
When we switch to 3.09 and use 4 gears to the 2.2 cars 3, WE ARE more closely geared.
Each gear is stored or potential energy. If we use more of them, we WILL be faster.
In a drag race, the 3.09 car will use 4 gears, the 2.2 only 3.
The 3.09 car will win everytime assuming equal traction.
VERY roughly stated adding extra useful gears is akin to adding extra stages to a missile.
Hammer
11-11-2005, 07:56 PM
#182
Originally Posted by 6.0-928S
Snipster, I just tried to call you. Number NFG. Mailbox full. Gimme a buzz.
Hammer
Hammer
Heh, then i miss all the important calls. I'm over my cousin's and don't have your number with me(besides he lives in a cellphone blackhole anyway, lol). PM me your number again and i'll give ya a ring monyanna.
11-11-2005, 07:58 PM
#183
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Originally Posted by 6.0-928S
Ok, let me try to say this again. This thread was not intended for boosted cars. They shouldn't need something like this. It's mainly for 4 speed automatic cars for spirited driving on the street. Once the gearset is designed I can include manual trans cars in a group buy if anyone is interested. IF YOU'RE NOT INTERESTED THEN WHY DO YOU CARE? 
Hammer
Hammer
My interest is understanding exactly who this mod is appropriate for... It seems that those who go down the drag-racing path will eventually want more power, right? So... my suggestion is that this might not even be appropriate for those people.
I'm really not trying to be a stick in the mud, but although it might be a decent off-the-line improvement for some cars / driving styles, it still doesn't seem cost effective.
b.t.w. your post that I replied to was of a 5-sp example, not 4-auto.
P.S. misc. clarification / correction to my above post - "...you have more torque in the 3.09 since you are at a gearing advantage and running at higher rpm's..."
11-11-2005, 08:00 PM
#184
Rennlist Member
Look, do you want to learn or do you want to argue. if you step back for a second and read my posts, ill guarantee that they are right and you could learn something here. right now, you are totally off base, especially with the last few posts.
step back, try and digest the first concept here that the 3.09 only gets you a 12.5:1 1st gear to a speed of 39mph. thats a fact. after that, both a 3.09 and a 2.2 S4 will have the same numerical ratios all the way to 155mph. what part of this dont you get. you are getting too hung up on what the gears are called rather than the ratios produced!
youre right to a point below on your closing statement. however, there are some subtle differences of the gears after 1st with the 3.09, some of which can negate the gains dependiing on the speed target. However, you are right , basically you gain a "extra" 1st gear and loose a useless 5th. However, the debate was in part, how much is the gain? the gain is what i said, 26% in the new 1st gear vs the old, and after 39mph, there is no gain, as the ratios are the same. the "launch" is clearly what you CAN gain, if you have tires and skill to take advantage of it.
Mk
step back, try and digest the first concept here that the 3.09 only gets you a 12.5:1 1st gear to a speed of 39mph. thats a fact. after that, both a 3.09 and a 2.2 S4 will have the same numerical ratios all the way to 155mph. what part of this dont you get. you are getting too hung up on what the gears are called rather than the ratios produced!
youre right to a point below on your closing statement. however, there are some subtle differences of the gears after 1st with the 3.09, some of which can negate the gains dependiing on the speed target. However, you are right , basically you gain a "extra" 1st gear and loose a useless 5th. However, the debate was in part, how much is the gain? the gain is what i said, 26% in the new 1st gear vs the old, and after 39mph, there is no gain, as the ratios are the same. the "launch" is clearly what you CAN gain, if you have tires and skill to take advantage of it.
Mk
Originally Posted by m21sniper
No, but a 1:1 sixth gear with coorespondingly lowered lower gears WOULD make quite a difference.
What i'm saying may not be in the correct terminology, but it is absolutely correct.
A drag car is geared such that he is hitting the traps at max power in top gear, END OF STORY.
A properly geared oval track car is geared to hit max power in top gear at the end of the longest straight, END OF STORY.
So why do you reckon that is????
Nonsense my ****.....
Further example. Many 928 models hit top speed not in 5th, but in 4th gear.
So, if you regear that car 1 point lower as per our example, it will now hit top speed in 5th, meaning you've effectively just got a "free" extra 1st gear.
5th used to be useless, but now it is your true topspeed gear. And at the same time we added a new 1st gear with tremendous bite so long as we can utilize the traction.
Net effect?
A significantly faster car. Same weight, same HP, same torque. ONLY difference is the gearing...and the ET.
What i'm saying may not be in the correct terminology, but it is absolutely correct.
A drag car is geared such that he is hitting the traps at max power in top gear, END OF STORY.
A properly geared oval track car is geared to hit max power in top gear at the end of the longest straight, END OF STORY.
So why do you reckon that is????
Nonsense my ****.....
Further example. Many 928 models hit top speed not in 5th, but in 4th gear.
So, if you regear that car 1 point lower as per our example, it will now hit top speed in 5th, meaning you've effectively just got a "free" extra 1st gear.
5th used to be useless, but now it is your true topspeed gear. And at the same time we added a new 1st gear with tremendous bite so long as we can utilize the traction.
Net effect?
A significantly faster car. Same weight, same HP, same torque. ONLY difference is the gearing...and the ET.
11-11-2005, 08:02 PM
#185
Old and new: a 3.09 car will use 4 gears in the 1/4, a 2.2 only 3. Thus the 3.09 is more closely for drag racers.
Makes your "3 speed" a 4 speed. Surely anyone can see the advantadge of that...???
Adding power(lots even so long as traction is maintained) would not make 3.09s less effective btw.
Makes your "3 speed" a 4 speed. Surely anyone can see the advantadge of that...???
Adding power(lots even so long as traction is maintained) would not make 3.09s less effective btw.
11-11-2005, 08:05 PM
#186
Originally Posted by mark kibort
Look, do you want to learn or do you want to argue. if you step back for a second and read my posts, ill guarantee that they are right and you could learn something here. right now, you are totally off base, especially with the last few posts.
step back, try and digest the first concept here that the 3.09 only gets you a 12.5:1 1st gear to a speed of 39mph. thats a fact. after that, both a 3.09 and a 2.2 S4 will have the same numerical ratios all the way to 155mph. what part of this dont you get. you are getting too hung up on what the gears are called rather than the ratios produced!
youre right to a point below on your closing statement. however, there are some subtle differences of the gears after 1st with the 3.09, some of which can negate the gains dependiing on the speed target. However, you are right , basically you gain a "extra" 1st gear and loose a useless 5th. However, the debate was in part, how much is the gain? the gain is what i said, 26% in the new 1st gear vs the old, and after 39mph, there is no gain, as the ratios are the same. the "launch" is clearly what you CAN gain, if you have tires and skill to take advantage of it.
Mk
step back, try and digest the first concept here that the 3.09 only gets you a 12.5:1 1st gear to a speed of 39mph. thats a fact. after that, both a 3.09 and a 2.2 S4 will have the same numerical ratios all the way to 155mph. what part of this dont you get. you are getting too hung up on what the gears are called rather than the ratios produced!
youre right to a point below on your closing statement. however, there are some subtle differences of the gears after 1st with the 3.09, some of which can negate the gains dependiing on the speed target. However, you are right , basically you gain a "extra" 1st gear and loose a useless 5th. However, the debate was in part, how much is the gain? the gain is what i said, 26% in the new 1st gear vs the old, and after 39mph, there is no gain, as the ratios are the same. the "launch" is clearly what you CAN gain, if you have tires and skill to take advantage of it.
Mk
I think you're an assclown to be honest.
With 3.09s in 1/4 mile racing my hypothetical 5 speed trans is a "4 speed". With 2.2s, your's is a 3 speed.
Tell me, if i'm using 4 gears to your 3 in the same distance, WHO IS MORE CLOSELY SPACED?
And if i run a 4.09, and use ALL 5 gears, tell me then, who is most closely spaced of all for 1/4 mile racing?
This is like friggin drag racing 101 here.
4.09 would be absolutely ideal for a 928 drag racing final drive ratio, with 15" rims and high sidewall super wide tires to boot.
Low profile tires suck for drag racing, and so do all these 17, 18, 19" rims. Sidewall is GOOD in dragracing, the more the merrier. Let's the tires flex on launch.
11-11-2005, 08:06 PM
#187
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by m21sniper
LOL, i know, i get 10 of those girlfriend "Just wanted to talk" calls a day.
Heh, then i miss all the important calls. I'm over my cousin's and don't have your number with me(besides he lives in a cellphone blackhole anyway, lol). PM me your number again and i'll give ya a ring monyanna.
Heh, then i miss all the important calls. I'm over my cousin's and don't have your number with me(besides he lives in a cellphone blackhole anyway, lol). PM me your number again and i'll give ya a ring monyanna.
Hammer
11-11-2005, 08:07 PM
#188
Rennlist Member
hmm, the 3 guys in the video link below, all had 4.45 rear ends. wonder what the problem was????
seriously, you are not grasping the concepts correctly. especially with the post about stored energy! you are getting yourself over your head now.
if both cars are at 40mph, even though one had the 3.09 1st gear, they are now both in a 8.9 ratio (regardless of what gear it is called or what has happened before) they both have the same amount of kinetic energy.
1/2MV^2
the formula has nothing to do with what gear you came out of!
after 39mph, both cars will accelerate the same. the 3.09 car will have had some % of a car length jump due to the 26% hp advantage to 39mph. after that, they both will accelerate the same. they have to!!
MK
seriously, you are not grasping the concepts correctly. especially with the post about stored energy! you are getting yourself over your head now.
if both cars are at 40mph, even though one had the 3.09 1st gear, they are now both in a 8.9 ratio (regardless of what gear it is called or what has happened before) they both have the same amount of kinetic energy.
1/2MV^2
the formula has nothing to do with what gear you came out of!
after 39mph, both cars will accelerate the same. the 3.09 car will have had some % of a car length jump due to the 26% hp advantage to 39mph. after that, they both will accelerate the same. they have to!!
MK
Originally Posted by 6.0-928S
Well said young man! Obviously you have wisdom gleaned through experience.
Get down with your bad self!
Hammer
Get down with your bad self!
Hammer
11-11-2005, 08:09 PM
#189
Rennlist Member
PM me and we can take this off line. I would also like to email you a very cool excel calculator for this kind of stuff.
No, you dont have closer gears below. you gain a gear at the low end and all the other gears are evenly and matched for spacing.
Mk
No, you dont have closer gears below. you gain a gear at the low end and all the other gears are evenly and matched for spacing.
Mk
Originally Posted by m21sniper
I think you're an assclown to be honest.
With 3.09s in 1/4 mile racing my hypothetical 5 speed trans is a "4 speed". With 2.2s, your's is a 3 speed.
Tell me, if i'm using 4 gears to your 3 in the same distance, WHO IS MORE CLOSELY SPACED?
This is like friggin drag racing 101 here.
With 3.09s in 1/4 mile racing my hypothetical 5 speed trans is a "4 speed". With 2.2s, your's is a 3 speed.
Tell me, if i'm using 4 gears to your 3 in the same distance, WHO IS MORE CLOSELY SPACED?
This is like friggin drag racing 101 here.
11-11-2005, 08:11 PM
#190
Mark, there's nothing you've to say that i'm interested in at this point.
Go run some dragraces, talk to some pit crews(all very freindly and accesable), and then get back to me.
My "4 speed" will beat your "3 speed" in a drag race with regularity. Forget even the extra launch potential, that's what it all boils down to.
My 3.09 5 speed is EFFECTIVELY more closely spaced than your 2.2 5 speed for 1/4 mile racing.
Drag racing 101.
BTW, yes, each gear is potential or stored energy, i don't give one rat's behind what you babble off next- that is a fact.
Go run some dragraces, talk to some pit crews(all very freindly and accesable), and then get back to me.
My "4 speed" will beat your "3 speed" in a drag race with regularity. Forget even the extra launch potential, that's what it all boils down to.
My 3.09 5 speed is EFFECTIVELY more closely spaced than your 2.2 5 speed for 1/4 mile racing.
Drag racing 101.
BTW, yes, each gear is potential or stored energy, i don't give one rat's behind what you babble off next- that is a fact.
11-11-2005, 08:16 PM
#191
Rennlist Member
ifyou use the 4.09 or 4.3, you would then add to the lower 1st gear. in that case you could have 3 gears all the way to 55mph. wonder how many draggers have 3 gears to 55mph. 27mph 1st, 39mph 2nd and 55mph 3rd. THEN, all the gears after that would be the SAME (again as before) so, what you have gained with this change would be a lot of shifting and certainly no grip. dont think you could really use a 1st with a top speed of 27mph at redline!! dont think any of your draggers use anything under a 15:1 either
12.5 1st with another 1.4 reduction for the 4.09 or 4.3 would be 17.5:1. dont see that that often, do you??
real dragging uses the tall sidewall as you said, to effect the gearing too. as the tire grows and the compliance of the tall rubber gets better grip.
watch the name calling too.
mk
12.5 1st with another 1.4 reduction for the 4.09 or 4.3 would be 17.5:1. dont see that that often, do you??
real dragging uses the tall sidewall as you said, to effect the gearing too. as the tire grows and the compliance of the tall rubber gets better grip.
watch the name calling too.
mk
Originally Posted by m21sniper
I think you're an assclown to be honest.
And if i run a 4.09, and use ALL 5 gears, tell me then, who is most closely spaced of all for 1/4 mile racing?
This is like friggin drag racing 101 here.
4.09 would be absolutely ideal for a 928 drag racing final drive ratio, with 15" rims and high sidewall super wide tires to boot.
Low profile tires suck for drag racing, and so do all these 17, 18, 19" rims. Sidewall is GOOD in dragracing, the more the merrier. Let's the tires flex on launch.
And if i run a 4.09, and use ALL 5 gears, tell me then, who is most closely spaced of all for 1/4 mile racing?
This is like friggin drag racing 101 here.
4.09 would be absolutely ideal for a 928 drag racing final drive ratio, with 15" rims and high sidewall super wide tires to boot.
Low profile tires suck for drag racing, and so do all these 17, 18, 19" rims. Sidewall is GOOD in dragracing, the more the merrier. Let's the tires flex on launch.
11-11-2005, 08:16 PM
#192
Originally Posted by mark kibort
PM me and we can take this off line. I would also like to email you a very cool excel calculator for this kind of stuff.
No, you dont have closer gears below. you gain a gear at the low end and all the other gears are evenly and matched for spacing.
Mk
No, you dont have closer gears below. you gain a gear at the low end and all the other gears are evenly and matched for spacing.
Mk
The race ends in 1320 feet. ANY gears you've left over at 1321.....useless. Might as well not even exist.
If i have 5 speeds to work with, and i use the gearset that will let me use ALL FIVE over the course of the race, i am EFFECTIVELY far more closely spaced than the car that can only use 3 of them.
Drag racing 101.
11-11-2005, 08:18 PM
#193
Originally Posted by mark kibort
ifyou use the 4.09 or 4.3, you would then add to the lower 1st gear. in that case you could have 3 gears all the way to 55mph. wonder how many draggers have 3 gears to 55mph. 27mph 1st, 39mph 2nd and 55mph 3rd. THEN, all the gears after that would be the SAME (again as before) so, what you have gained with this change would be a lot of shifting and certainly no grip. dont think you could really use a 1st with a top speed of 27mph at redline!! dont think any of your draggers use anything under a 15:1 either
12.5 1st with another 1.4 reduction for the 4.09 or 4.3 would be 17.5:1. dont see that that often, do you??
watch the name calling too.
mk
12.5 1st with another 1.4 reduction for the 4.09 or 4.3 would be 17.5:1. dont see that that often, do you??
watch the name calling too.
mk
It just goes to show your ignorance wrt what's good for a drag car.
6.0 runs a 5.13 final drive in his Olds. Or did you miss that?
11-11-2005, 08:23 PM
#194
Rennlist Member
definition 101:
spacing of the gears is calculated by taking a gear and dividing by the next gear. if the spacing is the same, the spacing didnt change, EVEN if you stick a lower gear in below 1st gear , as we are effectively doing with a 3.09 s4 on a 2.2 gear box. eg: gear spacing for an S4 is .71 or 1.4. this is determined by the gear set, not the ring and pinion.
with a 3.09 gear box, you do have closer gears from 0-39mph, after that, gear spacing is near identical. you do have gains from 0-39mph in this case. equiviant to 26% more hp to that speed, or 60hp on a 320hp car, but after that, no difference!
dont make me break out math 101
Mk
spacing of the gears is calculated by taking a gear and dividing by the next gear. if the spacing is the same, the spacing didnt change, EVEN if you stick a lower gear in below 1st gear , as we are effectively doing with a 3.09 s4 on a 2.2 gear box. eg: gear spacing for an S4 is .71 or 1.4. this is determined by the gear set, not the ring and pinion.
with a 3.09 gear box, you do have closer gears from 0-39mph, after that, gear spacing is near identical. you do have gains from 0-39mph in this case. equiviant to 26% more hp to that speed, or 60hp on a 320hp car, but after that, no difference!
dont make me break out math 101
Mk
Originally Posted by m21sniper
Tell me Mark, if i use 4 gears in a 1/4 mile, and you use only three, how IN THE NAME OF GOD, do you come to the conclusion the 3.09 car is not more closely spaced?
The race ends in 1320 feet. ANY gears you've left over at 1321.....useless. Might as well not even exist.
If i have 5 speeds to work with, and i use the gearset that will let me use ALL FIVE over the course of the race, i am EFFECTIVELY far more closely spaced than the car that can only use 3 of them.
Drag racing 101.
The race ends in 1320 feet. ANY gears you've left over at 1321.....useless. Might as well not even exist.
If i have 5 speeds to work with, and i use the gearset that will let me use ALL FIVE over the course of the race, i am EFFECTIVELY far more closely spaced than the car that can only use 3 of them.
Drag racing 101.
11-11-2005, 08:26 PM
#195
Rennlist Member
your getting close to a math 101 seminar.
did you miss the fact that he may use 30" diameter tires or that you completely missed the point of what the base gear ratio is? what is the first gear of the 6.0? with a 5.13, it has to be multiplied by some gear ratio. do you know what it is? tell me what his redline speed is in 1st gear. 5.13 rear end tells me nothing.
mk
did you miss the fact that he may use 30" diameter tires or that you completely missed the point of what the base gear ratio is? what is the first gear of the 6.0? with a 5.13, it has to be multiplied by some gear ratio. do you know what it is? tell me what his redline speed is in 1st gear. 5.13 rear end tells me nothing.
mk
Originally Posted by m21sniper
Those gear ratios are extremely common on drag cars, yes.
It just goes to show your ignorance wrt what's good for a drag car.
6.0 runs a 5.13 final drive in his Olds. Or did you miss that?
It just goes to show your ignorance wrt what's good for a drag car.
6.0 runs a 5.13 final drive in his Olds. Or did you miss that?