3.09 ring & pinion
11-09-2005, 03:49 PM
#136
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Originally Posted by mark kibort
... difference in the rear wheel accelerative gains is up to 39mph. the net difference that is "throwing your heads back in the seat" is only effectively 30hp . (OR A 13% gain,...
... for $3000, thats a lot of NOS...
11-09-2005, 03:55 PM
#137
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Oops, sorry, i gave both cars a launch at 3300rpms. thats not fair for the 3.09 that could launch as easily at 4600rpm now, so that, in fairness to the 3.09 change would give an average gain of 26%. still the point was you wouldnt get the 40% gain by the 3.09 change, but a little over half that. (assuming the grip thing)
now we are talking about more like a 60hp difference.
MK
now we are talking about more like a 60hp difference.
MK
Originally Posted by worf928
Yay! You're there.
Well, it wasn't a discussion about cost-effectiveness.
Well, it wasn't a discussion about cost-effectiveness.
11-09-2005, 05:17 PM
#138
Originally Posted by jyoon
i think the bicycle comparison is a little flawed because you don't spin the tires much. the problem with the really low 1st is you just light them up on the start and to 25mhp or so, then you let off the gas, shift, then light them up again shifting to second. with the normal 1st, you light them up a little at the start, then your good to 50 mhp or so. wouldn't it appear then, that the stockl geared car would be faster to 50? this is assuming street tires.
Also, the 3.09 car IS going to use MORE of it's total potential power in a 1/4 mile run than the 2.2 car is, end of story.
11-09-2005, 05:21 PM
#139
Originally Posted by mark kibort
yes, at launch , we have already talked about the "sub 1st gear" capabilities.
but, the rest of the gears work out to be almost identical, and you loose a 5th gear. in a drag race, if someone , lets say, burns too much rubber out of the hole to about 25mph and then shifts, both cars will then be in the same gears (will have the same ratios) from 25 to 50mph, 50mph to 75mph, and then 75 to 115mph. so, you are part right below as far as the potential for launch, but after that, both cars will be equal, as the ratios used for the rest of the run will be near identical. (see above ratio comparisons for a 3.09 vs 2.2 rear end on an S4 trans) so, yes, you could run out of top end speed beyond the 1/4mile due to the 3.09 being only like a 4th gear of a stock S4 gear box with 2.2. actually, it probably wouldnt loose any top end as 3.09 is 3% taller than the stock 4th gear of 3.2:1 and that gives a 155mph speed. 3% beyond that gives 160mph, kind of close to the stock rated speed of the car anyway. So, the net net, in real life, would be a new 1st gear that can burn rubber real easlity and potentially have a better launch with mickey thompson drag slicks to 25mph, then all the rest would be the same to 160mph! thats the point of this exercise.
MK
but, the rest of the gears work out to be almost identical, and you loose a 5th gear. in a drag race, if someone , lets say, burns too much rubber out of the hole to about 25mph and then shifts, both cars will then be in the same gears (will have the same ratios) from 25 to 50mph, 50mph to 75mph, and then 75 to 115mph. so, you are part right below as far as the potential for launch, but after that, both cars will be equal, as the ratios used for the rest of the run will be near identical. (see above ratio comparisons for a 3.09 vs 2.2 rear end on an S4 trans) so, yes, you could run out of top end speed beyond the 1/4mile due to the 3.09 being only like a 4th gear of a stock S4 gear box with 2.2. actually, it probably wouldnt loose any top end as 3.09 is 3% taller than the stock 4th gear of 3.2:1 and that gives a 155mph speed. 3% beyond that gives 160mph, kind of close to the stock rated speed of the car anyway. So, the net net, in real life, would be a new 1st gear that can burn rubber real easlity and potentially have a better launch with mickey thompson drag slicks to 25mph, then all the rest would be the same to 160mph! thats the point of this exercise.
MK
No mark, the net-net is that the 3.09 car WILL blow the doors off the 2.2 car.
All day, everyday.
I mean have you ever even BEEN to a drag strip? All your theory is great....but it ABSOLUTELY falls flat on it's face at the actual RACETRACK, where low geared cars utterly dominate.
And we're talking cars running as much as a 4.88 or lower final drive ratio.
If a 67 mustang running 4.88s with 600hp can get traction, a 300hp 928 running 3.09s certainly ought to as well, provided the proper modifications are made.
11-09-2005, 05:38 PM
#143
LOL, that's what makes Kibbort such a great racecar driver Hammer....he's relentless. 
And while his theory and math is sound, it overlooks the fact that the 3.09 car is going to use more of it's total potential energy over the course of a 1/4 mile run, and B), properly prepared drag cars DO get good traction at the line even with insanely low gearing and ridiculously high power levels.
At the drag strip 90% of all races are won or lost at the line, in the first sixty feet.
That means that the 3.09 is going to have a clear advantadge over the 2.20 car, and it will translate into lots and lots of wins vs the stock geared Shark.
Finishing the 1/4 mile @3000rpm in 3d gear such as my A/T 928 does is far from ideal.
And while his theory and math is sound, it overlooks the fact that the 3.09 car is going to use more of it's total potential energy over the course of a 1/4 mile run, and B), properly prepared drag cars DO get good traction at the line even with insanely low gearing and ridiculously high power levels.
At the drag strip 90% of all races are won or lost at the line, in the first sixty feet.
That means that the 3.09 is going to have a clear advantadge over the 2.20 car, and it will translate into lots and lots of wins vs the stock geared Shark.
Finishing the 1/4 mile @3000rpm in 3d gear such as my A/T 928 does is far from ideal.
11-09-2005, 05:51 PM
#144
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Originally Posted by m21sniper
LOL, that's what makes Kibbort such a great racecar driver Hammer....he's relentless.
And while his theory and math is sound, it overlooks the fact that the 3.09 car is going to use more of it's total potential energy over the course of a 1/4 mile run, and B), properly prepared drag cars DO get good traction at the line even with insanely low gearing and ridiculously high power levels.
At the drag strip 90% of all races are won or lost at the line, in the first sixty feet.
That means that the 3.09 is going to have a clear advantadge over the 2.20 car, and it will translate into lots and lots of wins vs the stock geared Shark.
Finishing the 1/4 mile @3000rpm in 3d gear such as my A/T 928 does is far from ideal.
And while his theory and math is sound, it overlooks the fact that the 3.09 car is going to use more of it's total potential energy over the course of a 1/4 mile run, and B), properly prepared drag cars DO get good traction at the line even with insanely low gearing and ridiculously high power levels.
At the drag strip 90% of all races are won or lost at the line, in the first sixty feet.
That means that the 3.09 is going to have a clear advantadge over the 2.20 car, and it will translate into lots and lots of wins vs the stock geared Shark.
Finishing the 1/4 mile @3000rpm in 3d gear such as my A/T 928 does is far from ideal.
Hammer
11-09-2005, 06:00 PM
#146
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Originally Posted by Malibu310
How much are these gears?
Rick
Rick
Rixter is providing me with a diff to take the ring & pinion out of. Then I send them to the gear company & he will give me a price. (unless Kibort tells him not to!)
Just kiddin' Mark!
Hammer
11-09-2005, 07:16 PM
#147
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Originally Posted by m21sniper
...At the drag strip 90% of all races are won or lost at the line, in the first sixty feet.
To all, I think we're all on the same page more-or-less with the math. It is the summation of conclusions drawn from the interpretation of that math along with selective use (not necessarily with evil intent) of aspects of the math that generate so many posts.
Is the 3.09 worthless? No. It all depends upon what you want to do with it and what you're going to put it in.
So, MarkK, if you could have a 3.09 and a 6th gear... would your tune change?
11-10-2005, 01:04 PM
#148
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ONLY for the 1st gear and its a 26% net gain of HP over that range of speed of that gear (ie 12.5:1 1st gear with a 3.09) after that (he says beating a dead dog now) YOU have the same hp to the wheels over the range, in this case, 1/4 mile. Again, the gains are only to 39mph and the total net HP gains over that range amount to 26% more average HP to the wheels.
its only the end of story if you understand the concepts. So yes, since you have some gains from 0-39mph and you are assuming traction, you will then have more hp to the wheels over the 1/4mile in total. this is because of the gain up to 39mph, not after, as we have said time and time again, those gears are the same (up to 115mph or so and after that, the 3.09 would be at a disadvantage of 4% and last i looked , 400hp takes about 10 seconds or so to go from 115mph to 155mph, so if you look at the net of that, 0-155mph could be in favor of the 2.2!! take that to the bank!!!!
MK
its only the end of story if you understand the concepts. So yes, since you have some gains from 0-39mph and you are assuming traction, you will then have more hp to the wheels over the 1/4mile in total. this is because of the gain up to 39mph, not after, as we have said time and time again, those gears are the same (up to 115mph or so and after that, the 3.09 would be at a disadvantage of 4% and last i looked , 400hp takes about 10 seconds or so to go from 115mph to 155mph, so if you look at the net of that, 0-155mph could be in favor of the 2.2!! take that to the bank!!!!
MK
Originally Posted by m21sniper
Depends on the traction you can get, and the suspension mods you've made.
Also, the 3.09 car IS going to use MORE of it's total potential power in a 1/4 mile run than the 2.2 car is, end of story.
Also, the 3.09 car IS going to use MORE of it's total potential power in a 1/4 mile run than the 2.2 car is, end of story.
Last edited by mark kibort; 11-10-2005 at 01:44 PM.
11-10-2005, 01:19 PM
#149
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Thanks Sniper!
Yes, the math is sound, and you are definitely right about a 3.09 on paper,and probably in actuality will win a 1/4 mile drag , providing the grip thing is dealt with. personally, it would be a toss up as i can get a pretty good launch as proved by some of my video tapes with cars 200hp greater. you have to factor in a second shift, however, that can actually be negated by a brutal speed shift
so, you are on the right track right up until the part where you point to your rpms at the end of a 1/4. this may be true for your automatic, and at that point would be a big reason to change to a 3.09, but on a 2.2 manual s4, it would top out at near 118mph in 3rd gear right at redline, providing a 400hp stockish 928 to be in the 12 or low 13s. you guys know im not a dragger, so this is all speculation on my part, but the math is sound.
again, keep in mind, this 3.09 discussion really is all about whether the 1.4x the gearing in the new 1st will benefit the accelerertion. it is certainly debatable due to the factors of grip. with street tires, i have a hard time believing that you could benefit, but certainly i could be wrong there. time slips can prove this. take a 3.09 with a measured HP 928 engine and lets see the times. then, anyone with similar HP with a 928 and a 2.2 can go out and get a time. if the times are within .1-.2 seconds. its hard to say if its worth the cost of $3000. I think a blower would be much more worth it or something that would work in all the rest of the gears as we have said, the net gain is 26% HP gain, or 60hp gain in that 1st gear for only from 0-39mph. after that, the gearing is the same on an manual S4 with 2.2 gears.
MK
Yes, the math is sound, and you are definitely right about a 3.09 on paper,and probably in actuality will win a 1/4 mile drag , providing the grip thing is dealt with. personally, it would be a toss up as i can get a pretty good launch as proved by some of my video tapes with cars 200hp greater. you have to factor in a second shift, however, that can actually be negated by a brutal speed shift
so, you are on the right track right up until the part where you point to your rpms at the end of a 1/4. this may be true for your automatic, and at that point would be a big reason to change to a 3.09, but on a 2.2 manual s4, it would top out at near 118mph in 3rd gear right at redline, providing a 400hp stockish 928 to be in the 12 or low 13s. you guys know im not a dragger, so this is all speculation on my part, but the math is sound.
again, keep in mind, this 3.09 discussion really is all about whether the 1.4x the gearing in the new 1st will benefit the accelerertion. it is certainly debatable due to the factors of grip. with street tires, i have a hard time believing that you could benefit, but certainly i could be wrong there. time slips can prove this. take a 3.09 with a measured HP 928 engine and lets see the times. then, anyone with similar HP with a 928 and a 2.2 can go out and get a time. if the times are within .1-.2 seconds. its hard to say if its worth the cost of $3000. I think a blower would be much more worth it or something that would work in all the rest of the gears as we have said, the net gain is 26% HP gain, or 60hp gain in that 1st gear for only from 0-39mph. after that, the gearing is the same on an manual S4 with 2.2 gears.
MK
Originally Posted by m21sniper
LOL, that's what makes Kibbort such a great racecar driver Hammer....he's relentless.
And while his theory and math is sound, it overlooks the fact that the 3.09 car is going to use more of it's total potential energy over the course of a 1/4 mile run, and B), properly prepared drag cars DO get good traction at the line even with insanely low gearing and ridiculously high power levels.
At the drag strip 90% of all races are won or lost at the line, in the first sixty feet.
That means that the 3.09 is going to have a clear advantadge over the 2.20 car, and it will translate into lots and lots of wins vs the stock geared Shark.
Finishing the 1/4 mile @3000rpm in 3d gear such as my A/T 928 does is far from ideal.
And while his theory and math is sound, it overlooks the fact that the 3.09 car is going to use more of it's total potential energy over the course of a 1/4 mile run, and B), properly prepared drag cars DO get good traction at the line even with insanely low gearing and ridiculously high power levels.
At the drag strip 90% of all races are won or lost at the line, in the first sixty feet.
That means that the 3.09 is going to have a clear advantadge over the 2.20 car, and it will translate into lots and lots of wins vs the stock geared Shark.
Finishing the 1/4 mile @3000rpm in 3d gear such as my A/T 928 does is far from ideal.
11-10-2005, 01:26 PM
#150
Rennlist Member
No, actually, i dont need the 6th gear as the "new " 5th would be too tall for my racing. as we all know, 400hp at road america got me around 155mph 3 x per lap, and that was with a 3.2 4th gear. with a 3.09, i would shift into the new 5th from an idential 4th (to my old 3rd at 118mph) and have a 4% torque disadvantage for a long long time ( at 4th gear at road america, you spend the longest time in this gear so little changes make big differences)
because the 3.09 buys a new 1st gear, which could be used for launching in a Speed GT race, where i had not enough hp to capitalize on this potential, and i dont run the series anymore, there would be no need for a 3.09. occasionally, in a very heated battle, or when i get in a scuffle in the slow turns, i will slip the S4 2.2 into the 8.9:1 1st, and give it a bang from 5000rpm to 6500rpm which usually takes a 1/2 second. (see video clip for this example. you can barely tell, but i do this shift sequence when trying to get underneath the Mike davis blue saleen in speedGT
mk
because the 3.09 buys a new 1st gear, which could be used for launching in a Speed GT race, where i had not enough hp to capitalize on this potential, and i dont run the series anymore, there would be no need for a 3.09. occasionally, in a very heated battle, or when i get in a scuffle in the slow turns, i will slip the S4 2.2 into the 8.9:1 1st, and give it a bang from 5000rpm to 6500rpm which usually takes a 1/2 second. (see video clip for this example. you can barely tell, but i do this shift sequence when trying to get underneath the Mike davis blue saleen in speedGT
mk
Originally Posted by worf928
Bill, this is kinda true for other forms of racing too. Look at formula 1 this year. The Renaults had ridiculously great starts all season. Speed GT was similar - not 90% maybe - but being able to gain 1, 2, or 3 positions at the start is a big deal.
To all, I think we're all on the same page more-or-less with the math. It is the summation of conclusions drawn from the interpretation of that math along with selective use (not necessarily with evil intent) of aspects of the math that generate so many posts.
Is the 3.09 worthless? No. It all depends upon what you want to do with it and what you're going to put it in.
So, MarkK, if you could have a 3.09 and a 6th gear... would your tune change?
To all, I think we're all on the same page more-or-less with the math. It is the summation of conclusions drawn from the interpretation of that math along with selective use (not necessarily with evil intent) of aspects of the math that generate so many posts.
Is the 3.09 worthless? No. It all depends upon what you want to do with it and what you're going to put it in.
So, MarkK, if you could have a 3.09 and a 6th gear... would your tune change?