Competition is healthy (SUPERCHARGERS!)
10-13-2005, 01:45 PM
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Competition is healthy (SUPERCHARGERS!)
I saw on ebay that 928 Motorsports is offering a "Tuner's" kit for the 16V in the under $2,500 range. You then pick off the head unit and a few hoses off of ebay cheap and off you go! Or they offer a full setup for right at $4,000, that you can later still upgrade.
EXCELLENT!
For the street, a supercharger is the easiest way to make a bunch of horsepower. (Or build a turbo system from scratch).
Any 16Vers who lament lowly power of early models should forget about the headers, exhaust, finding euro intakes, putting in euro pistons etc and just grab this tuner's kit while it's still offered. You can find many, many used good head units on ebay now or later. But fabing up a kti for most of us is something we can visualize and rationalize out - but can't actually do, don't have the time to do, or don't want to waste 100 hours trying to make a shadetree set up to try to save a few hundred dollars.
The centrifugal supercharger (the 928 Motorsport offering) and the rootes style (928 Supermodel) each have their good sides and bad.
The centrifugal supercharger is basically half a turbocharger unit, but is run by a belt off the motor, rather than by the exhaust. Their benefits? VERY easy to install as it is just a bolt on (you do not have remove the intake manifold).
This type supercharger acts a bit like a turbo - the faster it spins the more boost it makes at a higher rate of boost. So at low rpms it makes little to not boost (meaning no effect on gas mileage) and at high rpms it makes full boost.
They are much gentler on the motor and weight a bit less. Any easy weekend or one long day and it's one and your off - with an extra 100 horsepower or more.
The rootes supercharger also is sometimes called a "positive displacement" supercharger. it makes nearly the same boost at all rpm levels. Their benefit? They make boost all the time at basically the same level regardless of rpms. They require more skill to install (intake mainfold replacement) and gas mileage will drop (as you are running boost all the time.)
Some years back, I remember reading of a test between the identical stock Chevy 307 motor in a Camero - and the put one of the massive old sytle GM superchargers that sticks a foot out of the hood on it, and then a Paxton style supercharger - to see the actual 1/4th mile et.
The huge GM supercharger added over 200 pounds. It the review, they noted that the with the big GM supercharger the throttle response was near instant, where with the Paxton for regular driving there was almost no difference from its NA form. However, despite the great cost difference (those GM blowers used to be extremely costly) and the better immediate kick-in-the-pants throttle response, the GM blower had exactly on a 1/10th second advantage in the quarter mile.
928 Motorsports giving some economic and parts decisions to the owner in allow scounging the blower is a great idea that I hope spreads. I repeately come across "we only sell whole kits" for almost any element of my 928 project (s).
What 928 really has done if make it so that you can have a supercharged 16V for about $3,000 - and that is a really performance bargain! Really cheap go-fast power.
It is nice to see that us 16V owners have not been forgotten. Thanks 928 Motorsports and It is fully accurate to claim that there are FOUR 928 biggies, not 3.
Also glad to see 928 Motorsports adding the body kits (the "J" kits - can't spell it...)
The decisions ($$$) are becoming so VERY difficult as there is SO MUCH that I want - really, really want - and it that comes questions of how long will each be available.
I want certain elements of the French 928 body kit a lot - and the sources of 928 body kit components has dried up to almost none. If/when those kits and parts are no longer available, that is maybe the last source of good W-I-D-E fender flairs in box or kit form. So that is fairly high on my list of priorities as it might be a "now or never" decision.
The new supermodel rootes kit also is very encouraging as the sources of performance 928 parts seemed to be rapidly vanishing. Those double intakes look cool and a neat belt set up too. Not too fond of the clear air clearer tubes as I suspect they won't look so clean and clear a few years from now, but it is a neat set up for 32Vers and for all there is a fair price given the very limited market. That also is one of those items that may or may not be still offered a year or 3 for now, so if you want one, get it now.
This is absolutely wonderufl - an increasing collection of
supercharger options starting at $2500. Killer looking Whipple set up. The J French body kit stuff with no overseas shipping charges?! My heads spinning... WOW!
Mark
DFWX
EXCELLENT!
For the street, a supercharger is the easiest way to make a bunch of horsepower. (Or build a turbo system from scratch).
Any 16Vers who lament lowly power of early models should forget about the headers, exhaust, finding euro intakes, putting in euro pistons etc and just grab this tuner's kit while it's still offered. You can find many, many used good head units on ebay now or later. But fabing up a kti for most of us is something we can visualize and rationalize out - but can't actually do, don't have the time to do, or don't want to waste 100 hours trying to make a shadetree set up to try to save a few hundred dollars.
The centrifugal supercharger (the 928 Motorsport offering) and the rootes style (928 Supermodel) each have their good sides and bad.
The centrifugal supercharger is basically half a turbocharger unit, but is run by a belt off the motor, rather than by the exhaust. Their benefits? VERY easy to install as it is just a bolt on (you do not have remove the intake manifold).
This type supercharger acts a bit like a turbo - the faster it spins the more boost it makes at a higher rate of boost. So at low rpms it makes little to not boost (meaning no effect on gas mileage) and at high rpms it makes full boost.
They are much gentler on the motor and weight a bit less. Any easy weekend or one long day and it's one and your off - with an extra 100 horsepower or more.
The rootes supercharger also is sometimes called a "positive displacement" supercharger. it makes nearly the same boost at all rpm levels. Their benefit? They make boost all the time at basically the same level regardless of rpms. They require more skill to install (intake mainfold replacement) and gas mileage will drop (as you are running boost all the time.)
Some years back, I remember reading of a test between the identical stock Chevy 307 motor in a Camero - and the put one of the massive old sytle GM superchargers that sticks a foot out of the hood on it, and then a Paxton style supercharger - to see the actual 1/4th mile et.
The huge GM supercharger added over 200 pounds. It the review, they noted that the with the big GM supercharger the throttle response was near instant, where with the Paxton for regular driving there was almost no difference from its NA form. However, despite the great cost difference (those GM blowers used to be extremely costly) and the better immediate kick-in-the-pants throttle response, the GM blower had exactly on a 1/10th second advantage in the quarter mile.
928 Motorsports giving some economic and parts decisions to the owner in allow scounging the blower is a great idea that I hope spreads. I repeately come across "we only sell whole kits" for almost any element of my 928 project (s).
What 928 really has done if make it so that you can have a supercharged 16V for about $3,000 - and that is a really performance bargain! Really cheap go-fast power.
It is nice to see that us 16V owners have not been forgotten. Thanks 928 Motorsports and It is fully accurate to claim that there are FOUR 928 biggies, not 3.
Also glad to see 928 Motorsports adding the body kits (the "J" kits - can't spell it...)
The decisions ($$$) are becoming so VERY difficult as there is SO MUCH that I want - really, really want - and it that comes questions of how long will each be available.
I want certain elements of the French 928 body kit a lot - and the sources of 928 body kit components has dried up to almost none. If/when those kits and parts are no longer available, that is maybe the last source of good W-I-D-E fender flairs in box or kit form. So that is fairly high on my list of priorities as it might be a "now or never" decision.
The new supermodel rootes kit also is very encouraging as the sources of performance 928 parts seemed to be rapidly vanishing. Those double intakes look cool and a neat belt set up too. Not too fond of the clear air clearer tubes as I suspect they won't look so clean and clear a few years from now, but it is a neat set up for 32Vers and for all there is a fair price given the very limited market. That also is one of those items that may or may not be still offered a year or 3 for now, so if you want one, get it now.
This is absolutely wonderufl - an increasing collection of
supercharger options starting at $2500. Killer looking Whipple set up. The J French body kit stuff with no overseas shipping charges?! My heads spinning... WOW!Mark
DFWX
10-13-2005, 02:12 PM
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Nice review, Mark. One tiny correction - gas mileage may not drop with with Supermodel/928 Specialist kit since there is a boost bypass valve for idle and partial throttle. My gas mileage actually improved after the SC was installed, perhaps due to the large reduction in intake runner distances and better positioning of the injectors over the intake ports with the Supermodel manifold.
I completely agree, all of the pressurized intake development is wonderful and deserves our admiration and support.
I completely agree, all of the pressurized intake development is wonderful and deserves our admiration and support.
10-14-2005, 07:14 AM
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Agreed on your gas mileage comments. Also, once a person actually attends their motor their mileage will improve and better throttle response might result in a lighter foot too. I stand corrected.
Mark
DFWX
Mark
DFWX
10-14-2005, 02:00 PM
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Power and fuel economy .. the digital readout MAY be wrong!
Those of you who believe that your gas economy improves with SC engines sneeds to consider that you are using the on board fuel computer, which operates off the injector pulse signal, and LARGER injectors! In other words, the engine receives fewer fuel pulses per power load since the injectors are LARGER.
When we did the first stroker 6.0 at 368 rwhp, the owner claimed he got over 28 mpg back to LA. After convincing him to measure fuela nd distance, it ended up a little voer 24 mpg. He had 30 lb injectors.
Those of you using stock injectors, youa re accurate.
The only correct method is by fuel in and mile run.
Marc
When we did the first stroker 6.0 at 368 rwhp, the owner claimed he got over 28 mpg back to LA. After convincing him to measure fuela nd distance, it ended up a little voer 24 mpg. He had 30 lb injectors.
Those of you using stock injectors, youa re accurate.
The only correct method is by fuel in and mile run.
Marc
10-14-2005, 03:07 PM
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Exactly. It was cool to see my readout showing up to 30mpg on the way back from the Bay Area, after supercharging. However, the math didn't pan out 
Originally Posted by marc@DEVEK
Those of you who believe that your gas economy improves with SC engines sneeds to consider that you are using the on board fuel computer, which operates off the injector pulse signal, and LARGER injectors! In other words, the engine receives fewer fuel pulses per power load since the injectors are LARGER.
When we did the first stroker 6.0 at 368 rwhp, the owner claimed he got over 28 mpg back to LA. After convincing him to measure fuela nd distance, it ended up a little voer 24 mpg. He had 30 lb injectors.
Those of you using stock injectors, youa re accurate.
The only correct method is by fuel in and mile run.
Marc
When we did the first stroker 6.0 at 368 rwhp, the owner claimed he got over 28 mpg back to LA. After convincing him to measure fuela nd distance, it ended up a little voer 24 mpg. He had 30 lb injectors.
Those of you using stock injectors, youa re accurate.
The only correct method is by fuel in and mile run.
Marc
10-14-2005, 03:30 PM
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I recognized right away that the 89+ dash readout for gas mileage is affected by the larger injectors and the lower duty cycle (it reads 25+ MPG on the freeway, used to be 20 or so), so I have been going by tank fillups. Mileage per tank has been up, and I do NOT take it easy on the go peddle. The extra low-end torque I have now (345 ft lbs at 2500 RPM) gets used a lot!
10-14-2005, 08:44 PM
#7
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DFWX - thanks for the write-up. Thanks very much, in fact. I was beginning to think nobody noticed our "Tuner's Kit" option...
As to MPG - the conversation is a little funny... in the past we figured that anybody who wanted an extra 100 HP from their car simply wouldn't care about MPG.
At THESE gas prices, now we all are paying a bit more attention to it.
As to MPG and the centrifugal SC kits we offer, I have these observations:
the boost starts to come in at about 3,000 RPM; the engine is still using stock injectors, injector sizes, and stock fuel computers designed by Porsche and built by Bosch.
The 928 with a 5-speed seems to cruise at 65 MPH at 2200 RPM in 5th gear. (Your tire/wheel combo and transaxle final-drive-ratio may vary that a tad)
There is no boost to speak of at that cruising RPM - so no extra fuel is being added by the FMU either. Consequently, at these partial-throttle and cruising positions, the MPG seems uneffected (for good reason, nothing has changed).
Of course, when you romp on it, yes the MPG goes down as boost climbs from near zero at 3000 to almost 8 psi at 6,000 and the Fuel is added as needed.
It's a very power-on-demand system.
As to MPG - the conversation is a little funny... in the past we figured that anybody who wanted an extra 100 HP from their car simply wouldn't care about MPG.
At THESE gas prices, now we all are paying a bit more attention to it.
As to MPG and the centrifugal SC kits we offer, I have these observations:
the boost starts to come in at about 3,000 RPM; the engine is still using stock injectors, injector sizes, and stock fuel computers designed by Porsche and built by Bosch.
The 928 with a 5-speed seems to cruise at 65 MPH at 2200 RPM in 5th gear. (Your tire/wheel combo and transaxle final-drive-ratio may vary that a tad)
There is no boost to speak of at that cruising RPM - so no extra fuel is being added by the FMU either. Consequently, at these partial-throttle and cruising positions, the MPG seems uneffected (for good reason, nothing has changed).
Of course, when you romp on it, yes the MPG goes down as boost climbs from near zero at 3000 to almost 8 psi at 6,000 and the Fuel is added as needed.
It's a very power-on-demand system.
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10-15-2005, 01:17 AM
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Question to 928 Motorsports...
Of a different topic - regarding the Jaq body kit parts...
I have been emailing via your link, but I gather they are the ones responding.
Maybe you can help in what I am asking (ie relay it to them)... as mine is an unusual project for one of my 928s.
I already have a full older reproduction modified S4 fiberglass body kit from another 928 (nose, rear, side skirts and wing) AND also an old Gambrella front set (fiberglass fenders with hideaway headlights and front nose/spoiler.) So I have aftermarket body stuff for this 928 galore.
What I do not have, however, is the rear fender width I MUST have, though probably would like wider upfront too. The flairs you offer are not the style that would look correct. The reason wider is necessary on the rear is track rules (drag racing - just fun-runs, no points etc.)
The Jaq kit/components (according to them) are about 3 inches wider at the front and rear bumper covers - which they claim then will not fit. However, I do not particularly care if they do, I am mostly going the fender cover shape and it is not that much a challenge to widen the front and rear fiberglass pieces that I have.
By their responses, I am unsure if they sell individual pieces from the kit (according to them, the fender covers for the Sat. Night Fever and Orange car are the same.)
IF they sell only the fender covers (flairs) individually, could you get a quote on 1.) just the rear fender flairs and 2.) front and rear flairs?
I'm pretty good with body fabricating and have a couple thousand square feet of graphite cloth to play with anyway. However, the curves for fender flairs - and that match on each side - would be quite a challenge due to 3 dimensional curving.
As for lack of notice of your tuner's kit, I suspect 928ers are currently fixated on the Whipple set up. It is nice, but would not be the right choice for some and the 16Vers should jump on your tuner's kit to keep it on their shelf until the find the power head unit. This is the absolutely easiest way to make fast horsepower and that requires very little time or skill to install.
Thanks!
Mark
DFWX
I have been emailing via your link, but I gather they are the ones responding.
Maybe you can help in what I am asking (ie relay it to them)... as mine is an unusual project for one of my 928s.
I already have a full older reproduction modified S4 fiberglass body kit from another 928 (nose, rear, side skirts and wing) AND also an old Gambrella front set (fiberglass fenders with hideaway headlights and front nose/spoiler.) So I have aftermarket body stuff for this 928 galore.
What I do not have, however, is the rear fender width I MUST have, though probably would like wider upfront too. The flairs you offer are not the style that would look correct. The reason wider is necessary on the rear is track rules (drag racing - just fun-runs, no points etc.)
The Jaq kit/components (according to them) are about 3 inches wider at the front and rear bumper covers - which they claim then will not fit. However, I do not particularly care if they do, I am mostly going the fender cover shape and it is not that much a challenge to widen the front and rear fiberglass pieces that I have.
By their responses, I am unsure if they sell individual pieces from the kit (according to them, the fender covers for the Sat. Night Fever and Orange car are the same.)
IF they sell only the fender covers (flairs) individually, could you get a quote on 1.) just the rear fender flairs and 2.) front and rear flairs?
I'm pretty good with body fabricating and have a couple thousand square feet of graphite cloth to play with anyway. However, the curves for fender flairs - and that match on each side - would be quite a challenge due to 3 dimensional curving.
As for lack of notice of your tuner's kit, I suspect 928ers are currently fixated on the Whipple set up. It is nice, but would not be the right choice for some and the 16Vers should jump on your tuner's kit to keep it on their shelf until the find the power head unit. This is the absolutely easiest way to make fast horsepower and that requires very little time or skill to install.
Thanks!
Mark
DFWX
10-15-2005, 02:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Carl Fausett
DFWX - thanks for the write-up. Thanks very much, in fact. I was beginning to think nobody noticed our "Tuner's Kit" option...
There are plenty of us lurkers out there taking notice of your work(and Murph's). The intro or re-intro of the Andy K kit by 928 Specialists made a big splash. But there are still those of us waiting for the waters to settle. There's still a guy, down in Texas I believe, gettin' ready to put out a turbo kit...
The competition is great. And the support that all of you developers/marketers are putting out are swaying guys like me, who 5 years ago wouldn't have considered forced induction, to now leaning towards trying an install myself. Keep up the good work.
