worf928

I can sympathize. I hate seeing threads wherein post after post is composed of nothing but emoticons. Luckily this is a rare occurrence on Rennlist. (Although I don't mind the occasional post composed entirely of emoticons. Right Sharkskin? )

However, I have learned the hard way that facial expressions, voice tone and body language don't transmit well in e-mail or Internet forum posts. So, if I post something that is intended to be funny or sarcastic but might be interpreted as hostile I will use an emoticon.

Very early in my driving career, in a VW, I received a lesson in weight transfer and snap-throttle push - PLOW.

That would have been a much better post. And we'd be less-covered in the white post-extinguisher residue.

Very dangerous to open a hood when you know the engine is on fire.

I have yet to hear on this forum (or its e-mail list father) of a 928 owner getting burns from using an FE. In contrast I do remember a few stories wherein an FE (or 6) was successfully employed.

My wife, (aka CarChick) once pulled over on the highway and - using the FE in her Scirocco (her A-X car and not the same VW from my lesson in PLOW) - helped put out a car engine fire.

Maybe I'll never need to use the FEs in any of my cars. I hope so. But, I feel a lot better having them handy. (And of course they are required for DEs.)

When I work on a car and crack fuel lines an FE is ALWAYS at-hand for the first hood-open static test after everything is put back together.

Parnelli Joneser

The shop where I bought my halon extinguisher (they test and recharge them also) told me that it is important to store it upright . Apparently if they are stored flat the halon will eat at the o-ring seal and shorten the life of the charge. Anyone else ever heard that?

AO

Done!

SharkSkin

I have definitely been guilty of this... though thankfully not in the past couple decades, and not with the 928!
I think I see what you're getting at here. I believe that it would be more precise to say "having an extinguisher isn't cutting back significantly on real risk..." In an overall risk assessment, the fire extinguisher is a relatively small factor, true. If PCA doesn't require them anymore maybe they have justified eliminating the extinguisher requirement based on such assessments. But I for one don't give a flying f whether it's required or not, I want it in there.

Part of my perspective on the whole idea of extinguishers -- in a former life as a AAA tow driver I scraped up more than my fair share of wreckage from the highways and winched more than my fair share of "stupid moments" up a hillside or out of a ditch. Plenty of "burn jobs" too, but I'll confirm they make up a very small percentage of the cars totaled. But unlike most other situations, a torched car is through. Generally there is nothing at all worth saving, the destruction is so complete. I only needed fire extinguishers 3 times over maybe 275K miles in service -- about 3-1/2 years(college job). I firmly believe that in 2 of those incidents I prevented cars from burning up. Independent of what any person or organization may say, I have personally seen how useful an extinguisher can be and I have experienced the helplessness of having one that wasn't enough to put the fire out, so it was a waste.

Another bit of info that contributes to my perspective on extinguishers is that I have far too much blood, sweat, and $ into the car to put myself in the position of watching it go up in smoke while wishing I had an extinguisher. To me a fire extinguisher is a tool, nothing more. It's one I hope to never have to use, but it's one for which it's unlikely there will be an acceptable substitute in the unlikely event I need it, so I carry it. It's that simple.

If I were tracking, I would definitely go with a central suppression system. I think you might be surprised at how long a small halon or halotron extinguisher can keep an engine compartment below the threshold where combustion is possible. As you say, keeping the hood closed is crucial.
Glen, I make every effort to make sure my car is maintaned such that it never has reason to catch fire. But in the unlikely event that it does, I will have the right tool for the job and will not have to scramble for a substitute. You're entitled to think that's not realistic but quite frankly I don't think fiddling while it burns then expecting insurance to make it right is even remotely realistic. It might be interesting to chat over a beer with you about whether you think passenger oxygen masks, inflatable slides, or floating seat cushions on commercial aircraft cut back on real risk or are realistic additions to aircraft.
Glen, not sure where you pulled this from -- kind of like saying cheap sunglasses are bad for your wiper blades -- but to clarify, my extinguisher is not intended to risk-compensate any other mods on the car. I have made quite a few mods, repairs, and performed improved maintenance procedures on my car. In every case I have done so with workmanship that IMHO would have made the men who designed and built this car proud. Nothing I have touched has compromised safety in any way, and most of the people here seem to have the same work ethic. I'm a bit puzzled about what sort of connection you are making here...
No argument there... though if you have a dry chem I hope you would let me try to handle it with the Halotron first.

Your other points are well taken, and perfect examples of other tools which one hopes to never need -- but for which there are few effective substitutes.
It's right next to the "Any Key"...
Heh. I do that occasionally, more so when I only have time to skim the forums. It can be useful to do so to laugh at a joke, give a thumbs up, or whatever without hijacking a thread. Like you though, I'm not a fan of long threads consisting entirely of emoticons.
I agree 100% on both points. After all, is an insurance policy going to make you feel any better if the car catches fire, then the garage, then the house?
The o-rings are designed for exposure to the chemicals involved. If the extinguisher is serviced according to the manufacturer's recommended schedule it's generally a non-issue. Unlike dry chem which packs down and must be replaced, Halon/Halotron service involves simply recovering the gas, replacing the seals, and recharging. A shop that is set up to do it will usually charge less than for dry chem.

Oldtee

Thanks for all the replys, well .... most of them anyway. I guess the solution best for me is Ron H in the rear floor well. Seems simple, quick to get to and mostly out of the way. The back seats are not usable in my car since I don't have kids small enough anymore to fit there.

As for Halon? Jury is still out. Costly. It is true that a non halon makes quite a mess and is caustic, but it belies the question that its use is remote and still better than nothing. After all, wouldn't a fire be covered by insurance, including the clean up?

DFWX

Two personal extinguisher necessity stories (actually 3)...

A motorhome (small) that i had put a hot 440 magnum in developed as small motor fire due to a cracked fuel joint at the carb - for which there was a tiny fire under the carberator - no way to reach - but I had 3 fire extinguishers...
Only the children had played with those and all three empty. The rural voluntter fire department got there (cell phone) in about 15 minutes. By that time, both the fuel tank and propane had exploded and it was all just 30 foot ***** of flames.
Being an older motorhome and rarely used - liability insurance only, so total lose.

Long, long ago I had a shade tree shop drop in a 427 motor I had spend 2 years building into an old El Camino. When I showed up, he explained that he had left the key on so the cylinders were filled with gasoline. He then sat in the car staying, "but that's no problem. I just pulled the plugs and I'll just blow out the gas!"
As I immediately shouted "NO!!" he turned the key, for which instantly flaming gasoline was shooting out the 8 cylinders - ignited by the spark plugs he had just laid to the side. Fortunately, I had a big extinguisher.

At our home, one of my teenage son's decided to listen to his stereo in his room while he heated oil on the stove of our just-remodeled kitchen - for which he figured something wrong when he heard crackingly sounds (burning wood) after turning the stereo down smelling smoke.

Coincidentally, I had previously been at an auction of a bankrupcy sale for a retail company and had bid in a dozen of the BIG extinguishers that hang on the wall - those in a front closet. He and a friend (I wasn't there) emptied all dozen into the kitchen, saying he thought they were going to lose the whole house. But for those extinguishers, it was a goner.

HOWEVER, those powder extinguishers make an unbelievably horrible mess. It is nearly impossible to get rid of - ever - and seems to almost melt into whatever is really hot.

SO...
ABSOLUTELY carry an extinguisher - a cheap one if that is all you can spring for. While messy, without it even the slightest electrical, built up oil, or fuel leak will cost you your car. Without an extinguisher, you have absolutely not way to stop even the smallest car fire. If you have not seen one, youc an not imagine how quickly a tiny flame or electrical short will completely total a car. And they ALWAYS happen where you can not get to it by dumping liquids on it or trying to beat it out with your coat (under the manifold, under the dash...)

So get a cheap one ASAP and just toss it in the back until you come up with another plan. If not, and you have a fire situation, just walk away from your 928 and never look back. It's gone.

My thoughts anyway.

ew928

From reading previous 928 flambe posts, I thought the smart way was to leave hood
closed with engine compartment fire.
Pop the hood release.
Spray in Halotron to smother flame. (Halon types make O2 not available to the fire)
Then after fire is out. Carefully open hood with Dry Chem extinguisher in hand to
knock out any hotspots or flare ups.

Thoughts anyone?
So how do you stop the 2 extinguishers in the rear seat footwell from clanking on each other.

Ernest (NYC)

Mark

Real life SHARK FE story....My post from about 2 years ago...

https://rennlist.com/forums/928-forum/106075-fire-yikes-pics-added.html

I am 100% convinced - had I NOT had my FE, I would be scraping up a melted, charred unrecognizable heap of 928 off of the side of the Interstate...

I had my FE in there at that time, only because it was required at DE's...NOW - I keep one in ALL my vehicles ALL the time!

SharkSkin

Halon is costly. A halon version of the extinguisher I have currently retails for about $180 at Stable Energies. Halotron, the more environmental alternative(FAA approved replacement for Halon BTW) is cheaper; Mine was $119 but they currently go for $139 at SE. The same unit in red paint instead of chrome would set you back about $110. Let's ask Mark if he ever managed to get rid of all the powder from his interior fire.... I doubt it. I bet he still tastes bicarbonate occasionally when the wind whips through the car just right. I can't imagine what it would cost in shop labor, or even personal time/labor to clean up a mess like that so that it's as if it never happened. IMHO it's worth the cost difference. I've had to clean up an engine bay that had a 10 lb. dry chem emptied into it. Not fun.

I agree 100% -- obviously. No amount of convincing can equal one "aw****" moment like the ones you describe.

Ernest, I agree with the approach to engine bay fires that you describe, though it may not be necessary to pop the hood. If you are careful, you can spray a few-second shot into the grill area to flood the engine bay, then give a short burst every 10 sec. or so to maintain the concentration of suppressant in the engine bay for several minutes. BTDT, in a case where fuel was pouring out all over the exhaust & cat(not a 928). I was able to keep the fire down long enough that the fuel quit spraying and evaporated off the exhaust -- no more fire when I finally opened the hood, though there were pools of fuel in various spots around the engine bay. Key is to NOT open hood.

Mark, that was right around the time I joined here, and I did see that thread. Aside from my previous experience, that thread was a significant part of my inspiration to:

1) NOT drive the shark without a FE

2) Bite the bullet and go with Halotron

3) Do a bit of maintenance on the fuse/relay panel

BTW, do you feel that you were able to clean up all of the dust, or do you still find some occasionally?

DALEZPLACE

to say a fire doesnt happen or is uncommon, thought i could add am in middle of renewing intake completely from a intake fire when i got it all apart to replace ALL rubber realized there is no drain for the intake valley. Would hope most owners here do not neglect their cars as bad as PO on mine did. But seems to be a pretty good place for oil/grime to build up. Also wondered (someday after running again) if when washing engine down how to drain water out of there or if just run it and let boil out ? As far as putting out PO had garden hose nearby and I started spraying from underneath and then we popped hood and sprayed in opening (between air intakes) with hood closed tile thought was out flared up a little when got hood fully open but only for a few sec.

Ron_H

I am having trouble comprehending the use of water on a gasoline fire. I have always believed that water should NEVER be used on gasoline burning. I witnessed this truth once in Tucson. A friend of mine was wrenching on a VW bus and had drained the fuel tank into a deep tub and left it under the vehicle. As some may know, Tucson tends to be a bit hot and dry at times and that day was no exception. All of a sudden I saw him roll out from underneath the bus with his clothes on fire and the tub of fuel burning on the surface. He managed to extinquish the fire on himself, and then ran to the water hose and squirted it on the tub of burning fuel. The fire spread to the rest of the bus and that was the end of that bus. Later he said he had acted in a panic without thinking it through and should not have tried the water. Any comments??

IcemanG17

For what its worth, PCA does require a fire extingusher for all vehicles entered in a CONCOURS!?!?!? Odd I know since some of these cars only drive from the trailer-parking spot-trailer-home...but if you don't have one you loose 1 point!

From personal experience, I was at work (cop) heard a car fire over the radio right around the corner...responded...guess what, it was a very clean 356 with an engine fire, which was mostly out when I got there because the owner had a fire extingusher! Still sad since the car was basically totalled, it was very clean. The owner was quite pissed!

SharkSkin

Ron, using a water hose on a flaming tub of fuel is a recipe for disaster. Better to throw a blanket over the top, though that could also make things worse. A trash can lid might have done the trick, even if it was plastic. Remember what I said above about having to scramble for a(likely inadequate) substitute? Having said that though, if it's an engine fire and all you have is a hose, might as well use it. Yes, to whatever degree there are significant collections of fuel it will tend to spread the fire but in such case it may very well be manageable. I have been in this position before and I was (a) very glad to have the hose and (b) very glad there was not an electric fuel pump running at the time! Yes, I did spend some time chasing little mini-fires around, but it sure beat having car-b-que!

Your friend should have moved that tub of fuel at least 10 feet away from anything he cared about at the first opportunity, and covered it.

F4GIB

From my 15 years as a firefighter.

First Priority: Turn OFF the ignition and flip battery switch to OFF (if you have one).

This is technique Number 1. My department had a pointed nozzle with a series of holes just behind the point (carried on our "car fire" truck). We jabbed it throught the hood and let the high pressure water spray put the fire out. (N.B. "spray" not a solid stream - spray cools the fuel and displaces oxygen so it will put out a small gasoline fire.) Spray OVER the fire not into the flamable liquid.

This is technique number 2 (and why I still carry my old fire helmet, nomex coat and gloves in the truck). "Pop" the hood release (1/2 to 1" opening). Do not open the hood at this point. DO NOT OPEN THE HOOD. Introduce halon or high pressure water spray. If fire goes out, finish off the job with high pressure water spray or dry chemical. Be prepared to slam hood shut if necessary and start over.

One question for those who have installed the extinguisher on the front of the passenger seat. Does it interfere with passenger comfort? Do women passengers complain about runs in their hose, etc? What is the second best location?

worf928

I have not had any complaints. The B-K Bracket does not allow the seat to travel too far forward. B-K offers an extender that is supposed to allow more forward travel but it doesn't. The B-K bracket is about 1/4" too 'thick' to allow the seat motor to clear. If one were to carefully slightly bend the bracket downwards and use the extender then more forward travel would be available and the FE would be at a safer angle for panty-hosed passengers.