Quickest 928 on the planet
09-23-2005, 01:35 AM
#46
"PS - You should have kept your Camero. Looked sharp."
LOL, i wish that was my car. The ZZ4 LeMans was my car, the Z28 was a car that recently sold i found online. It went for something like $57,000. I sold the LeMans for $9000 in 03' when i got my 928S.
I think i kept the right car.
And yes i agree that fueling technology in the late sixties-early 70s(and really up until the early 80s) left much to be desired, and came at the cost of long term durability. However a modern GM crate motor such as the ZZ4 i ran in my LeMans with properly tuned modern carburation(i used an Edelbrock 750) is a very potent performer, and is built very strong to give a long life under severe duty. And really the $ savings of running a carb vs a 15-20yo Fuel injection system can be pretty huge. That means more money for other...UPGRADES!!!
I wouldn't put a SBC in my 928S, and if money was no object i'd be running a single turbocharged 8:1 6.4 liter 32v Porsche Stroker motor, but if my motor does ever blow i think that a Buick 3.8SFI Turbo would not only be extremely unique, but also mind numbingly fast, and very "Porsche".
A 3.8SFI V-6 with Champion aluminum heads is a good 300lbs lighter than a Porsche V-8, and getting 500hp out of a bone stock Buick Turbo six is literally a $2000 dollar one day bolt on affair, and the HP is fully controllable from the cockpit with a simple boost control ****.
Going with that motor in my Shark i'd be looking at about a 2800 curb weight, and a with a 'mild' 500hp bolt-on package(about 16psi with a TA-40) i'd be looking at a power to weight ratio of about 5.5lbs/HP!
Oh, and shifting all that weight to the rear of the car(much lighter engine up front) would make the car transfer its weight to the rear much better on launch(much better traction), and would result in a very much more 911 type character.
I mean really what could be more "Porsche" than a tail happy Turbocharged six?
Heh, anyone ever put a Porsche opposed six turbo in a 928? That would be pretty cool too.
LOL, i wish that was my car. The ZZ4 LeMans was my car, the Z28 was a car that recently sold i found online. It went for something like $57,000. I sold the LeMans for $9000 in 03' when i got my 928S.
I think i kept the right car.
And yes i agree that fueling technology in the late sixties-early 70s(and really up until the early 80s) left much to be desired, and came at the cost of long term durability. However a modern GM crate motor such as the ZZ4 i ran in my LeMans with properly tuned modern carburation(i used an Edelbrock 750) is a very potent performer, and is built very strong to give a long life under severe duty. And really the $ savings of running a carb vs a 15-20yo Fuel injection system can be pretty huge. That means more money for other...UPGRADES!!!
I wouldn't put a SBC in my 928S, and if money was no object i'd be running a single turbocharged 8:1 6.4 liter 32v Porsche Stroker motor, but if my motor does ever blow i think that a Buick 3.8SFI Turbo would not only be extremely unique, but also mind numbingly fast, and very "Porsche".
A 3.8SFI V-6 with Champion aluminum heads is a good 300lbs lighter than a Porsche V-8, and getting 500hp out of a bone stock Buick Turbo six is literally a $2000 dollar one day bolt on affair, and the HP is fully controllable from the cockpit with a simple boost control ****.
Going with that motor in my Shark i'd be looking at about a 2800 curb weight, and a with a 'mild' 500hp bolt-on package(about 16psi with a TA-40) i'd be looking at a power to weight ratio of about 5.5lbs/HP!
Oh, and shifting all that weight to the rear of the car(much lighter engine up front) would make the car transfer its weight to the rear much better on launch(much better traction), and would result in a very much more 911 type character.
I mean really what could be more "Porsche" than a tail happy Turbocharged six?
Heh, anyone ever put a Porsche opposed six turbo in a 928? That would be pretty cool too.
09-23-2005, 07:28 PM
#47
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Here is a quote from the site about the quickest 928..."Williams' insane WhippleCharger-equipped Porsche 928 qualified ninth at 4.63/163 and then obliterated the motor with a shot of nitrous in 4.70 first round win." He was the "quickest " for what 10 seconds I personally find drag racing boring , somewhat pointless and to be extremely abusive to the equipment. My wife likes to go to the Pomona Winternationals it happens 20 minutes away from 928 International it is all I can do to watch them run for about 1/2 hour before I need to walk around and at least see them working on the cars, doing something ! I did run my 911 once at a drag strip and I mean only one run! Waiting in line for 45 minutes or an hour just to get 14 seconds of "FUN" just did not seem like a good ratio. I guess I am spoiled by doing Driver Education time trials where you get in one day HOURS of driving as fast as you can, drag racing from corner to corner ten times per lap. Just think of it as though you are at the drag strip but when you cross the finish line you race back up the return road and do it over and over and over for 15 -20 minutes straight 4 or five times in a day. As I type that the idea of over and over and over I quess could make closed course road racing seem boring to some. In my opinion, drag racing just barely qualifies as a motorsport one notch above comparing dyno runs. Somehow the question of what happens if I hold the gas pedal to the floor and hold the steering wheel straight and slowly count to 14 just never intrigued me.
I personally find drag racing boring , somewhat pointless and to be extremely abusive to the equipment. My wife likes to go to the Pomona Winternationals it happens 20 minutes away from 928 International it is all I can do to watch them run for about 1/2 hour before I need to walk around and at least see them working on the cars, doing something ! I did run my 911 once at a drag strip and I mean only one run! Waiting in line for 45 minutes or an hour just to get 14 seconds of "FUN" just did not seem like a good ratio. I guess I am spoiled by doing Driver Education time trials where you get in one day HOURS of driving as fast as you can, drag racing from corner to corner ten times per lap. Just think of it as though you are at the drag strip but when you cross the finish line you race back up the return road and do it over and over and over for 15 -20 minutes straight 4 or five times in a day. As I type that the idea of over and over and over I quess could make closed course road racing seem boring to some. In my opinion, drag racing just barely qualifies as a motorsport one notch above comparing dyno runs. Somehow the question of what happens if I hold the gas pedal to the floor and hold the steering wheel straight and slowly count to 14 just never intrigued me.
09-23-2005, 10:36 PM
#51
Race Director
0-300 in 4 odd seconds has to be an extreme rush....but whats the lifespan of those motors.....1/2 a mile tops! Maybe 30 seconds (with burnouts).... Sure that 928 dragster is heavily modified...but so is all the road race cars too! It is a bummer that the dragster uses a chevy engine!
09-23-2005, 11:28 PM
#52
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My project 928 (86 1/2 - I have 5 928s) has a '78 4.5 with a single turbo, TEC3 engine management and 42# injectors. I did not build this car, credit goes elsewhere.
Primarily for the excentricities of complexity for the sake of complexity, a 32V (1985) 5.0 is going back in (bought a full parts car to get the motor), and will be running S4 pistons (ceramic coated), which informed 928 folks (Devek) advises with make 8 -1 compression.
I have obtained an intercooler to go between the turbo and the motor - but also have now obtained an Easton M112 with the all critical lower water to air intercooler for it as well - so both turbo and supercharger.
All those components have been obtained, plus 4 90 psi gear driven fuel and oil pumps (to serve as a pre-oiler and post oiler - ie turbo winddown), and numerous other stuff coming in such as water injection.
Methanol costs to me are 90 cents a gallon and this just the warrior (I have two daily driver 928s), so it will go methanol - though also hope to have dual fuel capacity (twin fuel systems) to avoid becoming stranded.
To make it more interesting, twin ESC-400s also have been obtained - which will go at the rear of the 928 - where the battery and fuel tank are now. This is being ducktailed up so the twin M61s will be exposed at the rear - meaning twin air filters and twin 3 1/2 inch titanium exhausts out the back - though one for electric cutoff bypass around the muffler. An ESC400 is an Eaton M61 rootes supercharger powered by three horsepower electric motors each. The twin matched and ported M61s with 48 horsepower between them make around 17 psi pre-intercooler and 15 psi after the intercoolers (so FOUR intercoolers) - good for a 15 second burst or so.
Turbo, Easton Rootes M112, twin M61s, and methanol, all intercooled and controlled by the TEC3 probably should break 400 horsepower? Or maybe direct port wet NOS is in order.
One goal is to make as much horsepower and torque possible at the lower end of the performance rpm range - rather than try to make ultra horsepower at high rpms. I plan a 5,500 rpm redline. In performance work, boost will go down as rpms go up - a function of the ESC400s as boost declines linearly as rpms go up, with the turbocharger of course coming into play in higher rpms.
The twin M61s rootes superchargers at 15 psi blowing into the turbocharger should spoil it up pretty quick. However, they are only for "burst" power for a few seconds.
The Rootes M112 and intercooler setup is so that at low rpms the 8-1 compression is not too boggy, though it will be set up to only make around 5 psi so not to make too much heat and not to require too much horsepower off the motor for itself.
Starting to become somewhat surprising even to me is that I actually now have all those major components and the minor stuff for it is now being rounded up (pulleys, belts, BOVs, piping, solinoids and on and on...) And a few other extreme design points (for show) best not to mention...
All that leaves is customizing the interior, customizing the exterior, polishing, anodizing, plating, weight lightening, painting and a few other details. Have a Gambella front fender/bumper/spoiler hide-away-headlight kit that came with one of the parts cars - the seller saying, "oh, by the way, do you want that stuff too?" (Free). That is my hardest decision - to keep the cool but odd pop-up shark lights or go to 944 style hideaways? The solution seems to paint up both sets of fenders so I can change my mind - whichever way I go - and the paint match...
There also are some showboat stuff also - lights, a custom Shark logo, and a few others.
A couple of months should cover getthing this all done. (ha).
A 928 was, in my opinion, a Rube Goldberg car - wonderfully executed and fully successful - complexity even just for complexity - and I intend to follow that concept in this customization. It may not be the fastest 928 ever on the road, but at least mechanically it is going to look like it - in unique, eccentric
and overkill ways.
All this could be done to an SBC, but given the cost of a swap it is cheaper to do this with a 928 motor. Not another in the world will have this under-the-hood or from-the-rear appearance.
I am know as the Porsche guy around here - five 928s at the corner of Main St of our small town. Right across from the police station, city hall and fire house. Only Porsche within 25 miles any direction (or even any other significant import). This is American V8 and pickup country - with a very, very popular 1/8th track not far with hundreds of competitors a week - from very serious 4 second cars to "run what you brung" - ranging also from VERY fast to a Dually Diesel racing a 3 cylinder GEO metro.
Anyway, I have a reputation for Porsche to hold up - and 90% this means SBCs.
I'll address drivetrain structural integrity as those matters come up (break), but have spare transmissions, drive shafts etc - and a few tricks possible in that regards too. Or could have a Ford 9 inch machined for independent suspension and midmount a Lenco transmission at the rear seat floor board with twin mini driveshafts - the rear area is not remaining a seating area anyway.
A person can do whatever they want with a car they own, including going off the deep end just for the joy of doing so. It I took the word "Porsche" off the back, few could ever guess what this is.
Primarily for the excentricities of complexity for the sake of complexity, a 32V (1985) 5.0 is going back in (bought a full parts car to get the motor), and will be running S4 pistons (ceramic coated), which informed 928 folks (Devek) advises with make 8 -1 compression.
I have obtained an intercooler to go between the turbo and the motor - but also have now obtained an Easton M112 with the all critical lower water to air intercooler for it as well - so both turbo and supercharger.
All those components have been obtained, plus 4 90 psi gear driven fuel and oil pumps (to serve as a pre-oiler and post oiler - ie turbo winddown), and numerous other stuff coming in such as water injection.
Methanol costs to me are 90 cents a gallon and this just the warrior (I have two daily driver 928s), so it will go methanol - though also hope to have dual fuel capacity (twin fuel systems) to avoid becoming stranded.
To make it more interesting, twin ESC-400s also have been obtained - which will go at the rear of the 928 - where the battery and fuel tank are now. This is being ducktailed up so the twin M61s will be exposed at the rear - meaning twin air filters and twin 3 1/2 inch titanium exhausts out the back - though one for electric cutoff bypass around the muffler. An ESC400 is an Eaton M61 rootes supercharger powered by three horsepower electric motors each. The twin matched and ported M61s with 48 horsepower between them make around 17 psi pre-intercooler and 15 psi after the intercoolers (so FOUR intercoolers) - good for a 15 second burst or so.
Turbo, Easton Rootes M112, twin M61s, and methanol, all intercooled and controlled by the TEC3 probably should break 400 horsepower? Or maybe direct port wet NOS is in order.
One goal is to make as much horsepower and torque possible at the lower end of the performance rpm range - rather than try to make ultra horsepower at high rpms. I plan a 5,500 rpm redline. In performance work, boost will go down as rpms go up - a function of the ESC400s as boost declines linearly as rpms go up, with the turbocharger of course coming into play in higher rpms.
The twin M61s rootes superchargers at 15 psi blowing into the turbocharger should spoil it up pretty quick. However, they are only for "burst" power for a few seconds.
The Rootes M112 and intercooler setup is so that at low rpms the 8-1 compression is not too boggy, though it will be set up to only make around 5 psi so not to make too much heat and not to require too much horsepower off the motor for itself.
Starting to become somewhat surprising even to me is that I actually now have all those major components and the minor stuff for it is now being rounded up (pulleys, belts, BOVs, piping, solinoids and on and on...) And a few other extreme design points (for show) best not to mention...
All that leaves is customizing the interior, customizing the exterior, polishing, anodizing, plating, weight lightening, painting and a few other details. Have a Gambella front fender/bumper/spoiler hide-away-headlight kit that came with one of the parts cars - the seller saying, "oh, by the way, do you want that stuff too?" (Free). That is my hardest decision - to keep the cool but odd pop-up shark lights or go to 944 style hideaways? The solution seems to paint up both sets of fenders so I can change my mind - whichever way I go - and the paint match...
There also are some showboat stuff also - lights, a custom Shark logo, and a few others.
A couple of months should cover getthing this all done. (ha).
A 928 was, in my opinion, a Rube Goldberg car - wonderfully executed and fully successful - complexity even just for complexity - and I intend to follow that concept in this customization. It may not be the fastest 928 ever on the road, but at least mechanically it is going to look like it - in unique, eccentric
and overkill ways.
All this could be done to an SBC, but given the cost of a swap it is cheaper to do this with a 928 motor. Not another in the world will have this under-the-hood or from-the-rear appearance.
I am know as the Porsche guy around here - five 928s at the corner of Main St of our small town. Right across from the police station, city hall and fire house. Only Porsche within 25 miles any direction (or even any other significant import). This is American V8 and pickup country - with a very, very popular 1/8th track not far with hundreds of competitors a week - from very serious 4 second cars to "run what you brung" - ranging also from VERY fast to a Dually Diesel racing a 3 cylinder GEO metro.
Anyway, I have a reputation for Porsche to hold up - and 90% this means SBCs.
I'll address drivetrain structural integrity as those matters come up (break), but have spare transmissions, drive shafts etc - and a few tricks possible in that regards too. Or could have a Ford 9 inch machined for independent suspension and midmount a Lenco transmission at the rear seat floor board with twin mini driveshafts - the rear area is not remaining a seating area anyway.
A person can do whatever they want with a car they own, including going off the deep end just for the joy of doing so. It I took the word "Porsche" off the back, few could ever guess what this is.
09-24-2005, 12:37 AM
#53
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Correction of one of many, many typos. An ESC400 is a ported Eaton M61 rootes supercharger powered by three 8 horsepower motors (ttl 24 horsepower) at 24 volts. They can be run up to 478 volts (basically doubling horsepower and rpms of the M61, but then the motors need a cooling system.) This the Thomas Knight previous setup, though now he uses a single 8 horsepower motor running a centrifugal supercharger... In addition to the turbocharger and M112 supercharger, it will have twin ESC400 matched ported M61s. However, the intake air for the turbo and M112 will not pul through the ESC400s. A separate 24 volt alternator is being used to charge the Oydessy batteries for the ESC400s. The alternator(s) will cut off on full-flooring the pedal or if manually turned off to avoid engine drag under hard acceleration. Possibly I will try to find (affordably) and match an Mercedes electric-activated clutch for the M112, maybe not.
