Ron_H

Again we agree. It is not I who attempts to make that correlation, but "the state". It is absolutely absurd. Yes, it is all about the money. I recall my days at U of Oregon and Oregon State and the times on I-5 when I would pass bears while I was doing 75 or 80 in my Falcon, and would barely get a glance. The Basic Speed Law was in effect then, and still is, believe it or not. No longer, because Oregon is hurting for funds. I agree that the limit is not about safety at all, but about money. The "limit" is simply an arbitrary number that is known to be exceeded by many people and when not exceeded, creates a condition compromising a driver's ability to operate his vehicle safely. Think carefully before challenging that last statement, for Louie stated it well when he said he was trying to stay alert at the limit or under it and had difficulty. The "state" and its cronies knows this, and California has admitted to me personally that they know more accidents will result from lowered speed limits.
I asked them if I could quote them in court and the spokesman for the engineering dept. adamantly refused to allow that.

The other source of this policy is the need for some individuals to assert their wish for mundane uniformity and fear of individual differences over a majority of a group. No one is allowed to stand out, or achieve more than anyone else. (see my earlier post). Paint everything some uniformly drab color. No exceptions. The panic and alarm by bears at someone "cutting in and out" of traffic by bears is a hoot; that is precisely what they do all day long. Then why is it so dangerous? If they are capable what makes them think no one else is capable? But their hatred and contempt for anything being or behaving in a non-uniform manner is not tolerated. Probably because it wasn't tolerated in their lives. Pity them.

The point is the claim of danger must be substantiated. Well documented, scientific studies refute such claims. And such studies are available folks.


And notice I say " the state". We are the state, but it is interesting to blame it all on the state, when it is vested interests both within and without the government that are responsible for it's policies. We blame everything on some entity called the state or the government, but that entity consists of publically appointed or elected officials who we can influence to change such policies.

heinrich

Louie you said it. I agree. Why should a 1930 diesel truck and a 2006 Lamborghini or Enzo run under the same freaking laws ... crazy. Why should a skilled driver and a school child be subject to the same speed limits.

<edit> OK I forgot the little word "or"

Louie928

Yup. Well said. If I am going about 90 to 110, I'm alert and focused on driving, and even more focused on where a cop may be hiding. I never approach a corner or hill where one may suddenly appear without slowing to near the legal limit. It's a pain to have to drive like that, but better than keeping with the limit and not having enough to do to keep your mind on driving. That's when you decide to clean out your glovebox, arrange your CDs, or plan your next project complete with making sketches.

When I used to commute to/from work in traffic I'd often wonder at the cause for a huge traffic jam. I'd work my way closer to the front only to find a police car up there and everyone afraid to pass it. Drivers were jamming on their brakes and general mayhem for quite some distance behind the police who were out protecting us from ourselves oblivious to the unsafe conditions they created, or maybe they did it on purpose for kicks. Had they kept off the road, we'd all had a much faster and safer commute. As for the public officials who could change the laws, if they tried they'd have a huge number of constituents who think it is their right to drive regardless of skill, or equipment. Last year, we had an opportunity to have the speed limits raised on the interstates here in OR. The Oregon DOT dutifly went to many locations and held hearings to get public input. I went and made a speech in support of raising the limit on the less travelled sections. I pointed out that the German Autobahn has fewer accidents per mile than on our speed limited freeways. They looked at me like I was advocating mass suicide. I was astonished at the number of "the sky is falling" mentality people who were convinced that if we were to go even 70, that highway carnage would be huge. Some thought that adhering to the 65 limit was our duty to save the planet, and that the speed should go back to 55. They couldn't stand to see anyone going faster than their '73 Volvo. Some want kids to drive so the parents don't have to run them around all the time. There is even support for the "right" for uninsured, no drivers license, people to drive. "How else are they going to get to work, and shop, and buy beer"? The level of insanity was frightening. In the end, the limit was raised from 55 to 60 in a few small sections. The main reason for not raising it further to 70 was only because there is another law that said the difference between car and truck traffic can't be more than 10mph. Truck's limit is 55. So, rather than raise the truck limit too, the cars have to stay at 65. 'course the trucks ignore 55 and usually travel with the cars, or faster.

I admire your efforts at getting some semblence of reasonableness into the motor vehicle (speed) laws, but there is only ignorance with no motivation to change in the DOT and legislature. The only hope is if the bloodsuckers can get more money from the change.

Ron_H

90 to 110 is certainly the sweet spot for a 928. I am also focused and alert and aware that I must remain that way. In my 914/6, about 100 is right for me. All day long and stop for the dark. The way the machine was intended to operate best. Thanks for your thoughts. We WILL keep up the effort. We have the statistics. We are also searching for that perfect case to challenge the California maximum speed law on the freeways. The case must proceed through the appeals court to have meaningful effect, so someone must suffer the process.

I think it is important to remember that having public hearings is not always a good idea. People are social animals and tend to say in public what they think is expected of them and what others in the group want to hear. This may be the shortcoming of the Oregon hearings. Who would dare challenge the conventional wisdom (of speed limits) if their identity were revealed? This has happened with other issues throughout history, as well. The mob rules the individual free and honest thinker. The secret ballot or the appeals courts are another matter.

Nicole

Same as with Germany. Even though there are less and less areas where they let you roam free (many areas around the bigger cities are now limited to a neck-breaking 80mph or less), there are still long stretches where you can let it fly - they say 4% of German roads are unlimited. But there are less accidents per mile driven - and the difference is evern greater, if you compare freeway vs. Autobahn only. The best proof that speed is not what kills. Now I let you guys decide what causes the higher numbers of accidents on American roads...

Royal Tiger

Want to know what kills American drivers? Themselves. We give anyone a license and the lawyers lay in wait when you try and take it away. Ron drive in LA (I hear it's a mess) and see the level of incompetence behind the wheel. That is the issue. I support most of your ideas, so end the crusade to make me your "personal freedoms" martyr. I like you so far, and we both want an open Interstate system, and even agree on the root cause, so again, I think it's ok to disagree on some other issues without labeling me as "the man" and the face of the often faceless "government". I don't like to label, but this area has a high hispanic population as it overflows out of NYC. They seem to have noi regard for the rules and regulations, that include simple things like registrations, valid licenses, INSURANCE, red lights, keeping right, etc... Again I'm not trying to be racist. I have even had a lawyer at a hearing say his client should have his tickets for driving under suspension, expired plate, and no insurance, because all the rules are written in English (which is BS because I looked at the PennDOT site and it has a Spanish version and even a Spanish language prompt on the 1-800 number). The culture in this country needs to be changed, not the mostly decent officers that die in the hundreds in this country trying to make sure you get home to your loved ones everynight.

Royal Tiger

Macreel, thatnk you and if I even find myself out there (wife always wanted to see Seattle after the Sleepless movie) I will be sure to take you up on your offer. As for a PA meet, I'd love to go to one and meet some of you in person and see more of these beautiful cars up close. And even go for some rides {hint, hint...}. I looked into the Reisentoter Region of the PCA and they seem active in this area, but must own one for full membership. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that I can become a Shark keeper in 2007.

ablose58

Tigershark, If you ever come to WA. I will give you a ride as well and it would be nice to see another person from PA. as I am originally from the lehigh valley area as well, Cheers!!!! AL

Louie928

Stoopid drivers. No regulation requiring a competency review to retain your license. In most states, it's get a drivers license and drive 'til you die. Also the enforcement system is centered on speed and not drivers incompetency. I do think that is due to two things. One, it's easy to use a tool to record speed and it often not refutable. Money rolls in. Second, it's often a judgement call whether a driver is driving dangerously, and then it is money that can buy a lawyer to get you off.

That's the main reason why the "safe and prudent" speed limit we used to have on rural roads in Oregon and more recently in Montana went away. Officers really only went after people who, in their opinion, were not driving safely for the conditions. A good lawyer could often pick apart their case so enforcement became meaningless and of course no income for the state either. It may be hard to believe, but before the national 55 mph speed limit traffic enforcement officers enjoyed a certain amount of respect because what they did made some sense and they did actually help motorists. When the 55 limit came, people quickly saw the complete disconnect between getting stopped for speeding and safety. The state quickly saw the cash cow too. It didn't take long for the attitude toward traffic enforcement people came to be what it is today - contempt. Just another tax collector.

Ron_H

Tigershark, I HAVE driven many, many miles in L.A.. L.A. is "car city", and I have been around that place maybe more than I want to rememeber, by car, by bus and walking for miles and miles. I have literally lived on/in the streets of downtown LA.

You think that is a mess? You haven't seen a "mess" until you have seen the drivers in Italy. And I would drive there in a heartbeat. Why? Because they are either good or they are dead. The facts still be the facts, and opinions based on emotional suspicions are not necessarily fact. And speed limits set illegally are neither VALID nor ENFORCEABLE. A traffic engineer shall set those limits and only according to soundly proven engineering practices, if they are set at all.

If you really want a "mess", go to Hawaii. Rent a car for a couple of days and drive aroung there, anywhere in the state. That is what over regulation and emotional propaganda will do to f*** up a system. It is a totally medieval system. You will beg to be driving in LA after that. And as for "profiling"? Well, we had betten not go there, 'cause you haven't experienced me angry yet.

kshipp

Interesting comment. So why do you think that is?...Technology? Population expansion? People in general aren't as friendly as they were then? Stress in the workplace?

kshipp

This thread has come to life again, eh?
Interesting comments and opinions by all. It's certainly a topic to ponder. Tigershark would like to see the culture changed, but how do we do it?

In reviewing all the comments, is the system working? Do we need to change the system (add more control and rules?) or do we better educate the drivers (stricter or recurring driving tests)?

IMHO, I think we should focus on improving the drivers and not worry so much about the car inspections, etc as much. My frustrations and observations have been with drivers who aren't paying attention. A few examples may be: they think they "own" the left lane, they're trying to answer/call/talk on their cell phone, they're spanking the kid(s) in the back seat while driving 70, etc., and yes, even reading a book!

There are probably as many reasons as there are causes. Everyone is busy. Everyone is multi-tasking. Not enough time. In a hurry. Too much caffienne, not enough caffienne. Easily frustrated. Short fuses. Running late. Too much stress at work and/or home. Add a few more drivers like this and we'll likely have a case of 'road rage'.....so is it the drivers or the system that should be improved first?

No answers, just questions...

Ron_H

I vote for stricter and more difficult to obtain licenses and recurring testing, as well as driver education (real education), as well as graded licenses as one goal. I also vote for educating the police. We can discuss that in detail later. I vote for improving the highway system. (that requires volumes). And I vote to require rigorous vehicle standards and grading automobile performance. Finally, I vote to kick the insurance companies "where it hurts" and interfere with their propaganda peddling.

As an aside, I have a friend who is involved with this issue intensely and is currently (as I write this) sitting alongside I-5 with a radar gun in the central California valley shooting cars passing by. He just called me laughing saying it is like shooting fish in a barrel, as he says a Porsche just went by at 94, a sheriff just passed by at 79, a cadillac passed by at 84, etc. He was amazed top find 2 cars that were actually at the limit or below. He wondered about them. Probably 95% or more are exceeding the limit of 65. All kinds of vehicles. Except trucks which must conform to the 55 limit and are monitored.
The point is NO ONE IS OBEYING THE LIMIT AND NO ONE IS HAVING AN ACCIDENT. It is not a demolition derby out there contrary to "conventional wisdom" and despite the fact that these are rather unfit cars relative to Porsches. And they are not just exceeding the limit by 3 or 4 mph; they are flying by. Every day. All year. All over America. If the claims of regulators were true, we would see carnage and the highways would be littered with wrecks. It is bull****. To hear this guy's reaction, I get the idea the police actually would enjoy this activity. The designers of these roads know this is happening folks. They know the traffic, when it is flowing properly is exceeding the posted limits more than a little. And even when it is not flowing properly, which is the real problem. Think about that.

heinrich

"In God we trust"
"God bles America"
"One nation under God"

Imo000

Who's "WE"?