86 vs 86.5 Braking
04-25-2005, 02:39 PM
#16
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Ive been in 928s since 1986, every week. plus, street applications are hardly "pushing" brakes. on a street tire, this brake discussion is meaningless.
Im not using my brakes to full potential?? thats almost funny. Lets put you in a car, running 155mph and repeatedly stop to 40mph 3 times a lap as well as 10 more stops from 100+ to 40-80mph.
Ive also been door to door with cars with our S brakes at these speeds as well.
its ALL about driving to the limit. like i said, its not the brakes scott, its the tires that are the limitations. ESPECIALLY if you are NOT racing. I hardly ever have to push "all that hard" to get the car to stop. its a feel and too much push, or too quickly a push, and you get lock up . the power needed to bring a car down from 60mph is WELL within the power capabilities of a pagid orange pad and S brakes. 1g decel or accel ave requires 500hp. (0-60 or 60-0 in 3.6 approx seconds) our brakes can produce well over this . Now, over and over for hours, no. thats a heat disappation issue, where the S4 type is much superior.
let me give you a reality. suppose you and i are at laguna going over turn 1 and into turn 2. peaking at 125mph or so. we both go real deep. you have S4 and I have S brakes. you really think there will be a stopping difference????
since i have done this reality, over 1000s of times, (more than you have done on you makeshift skid pad) i can tell you the reality of it, is that their is no difference. (condition, same car, same hp, same tires, same driver) Now, there is a difference if the race ends up being over 1hour or something. And, as I said, the main difference is feel, (ie effort,where this is important to some) and wear. Ive destroyed S rotors, and made S type pagid pads fall apart like a dirt clod, in heated races lasting 50min. they work, but dont last in extreme uses. in extreme cases, S4 brakes are far superior.
like i said, at the limit, both brakes can have the actual clamping force to stop at the limit of the tire. the tire is the limiting factor, especially since the diffence of the S4 vs S brakes is not all that great (compared to the 79 vs 85 style)
However, again, if you do see a difference, its driver, not brakes ! (same pads, tires, weight, car type, suspension etc)
Mk
Im not using my brakes to full potential?? thats almost funny. Lets put you in a car, running 155mph and repeatedly stop to 40mph 3 times a lap as well as 10 more stops from 100+ to 40-80mph.
Ive also been door to door with cars with our S brakes at these speeds as well.
its ALL about driving to the limit. like i said, its not the brakes scott, its the tires that are the limitations. ESPECIALLY if you are NOT racing. I hardly ever have to push "all that hard" to get the car to stop. its a feel and too much push, or too quickly a push, and you get lock up . the power needed to bring a car down from 60mph is WELL within the power capabilities of a pagid orange pad and S brakes. 1g decel or accel ave requires 500hp. (0-60 or 60-0 in 3.6 approx seconds) our brakes can produce well over this . Now, over and over for hours, no. thats a heat disappation issue, where the S4 type is much superior.
let me give you a reality. suppose you and i are at laguna going over turn 1 and into turn 2. peaking at 125mph or so. we both go real deep. you have S4 and I have S brakes. you really think there will be a stopping difference????
since i have done this reality, over 1000s of times, (more than you have done on you makeshift skid pad) i can tell you the reality of it, is that their is no difference. (condition, same car, same hp, same tires, same driver) Now, there is a difference if the race ends up being over 1hour or something. And, as I said, the main difference is feel, (ie effort,where this is important to some) and wear. Ive destroyed S rotors, and made S type pagid pads fall apart like a dirt clod, in heated races lasting 50min. they work, but dont last in extreme uses. in extreme cases, S4 brakes are far superior.
like i said, at the limit, both brakes can have the actual clamping force to stop at the limit of the tire. the tire is the limiting factor, especially since the diffence of the S4 vs S brakes is not all that great (compared to the 79 vs 85 style)
However, again, if you do see a difference, its driver, not brakes ! (same pads, tires, weight, car type, suspension etc)
Mk
Originally Posted by Scott M.
Well then I'm sorry to say that your not using your brakes to their full potential. You may have some 'race' experience, but there is a whole 'nother world out there. The one we like to call reality. The one I drive a 928 in at least 5 days a week.
Scott
Scott
Last edited by mark kibort; 04-25-2005 at 03:00 PM.
04-25-2005, 03:04 PM
#17
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Wow Marky;
I really don't remember Greg asking about Laguna at 125, now was he?? You are the Master in your own Mind! And for those viewing this charade, I just like to stoke the Kibort
First you say adamantly say that there is no difference, then you say that there is a difference if the race is over an hour (and quote "or something")...make up our minds will ya?
How many Porsches have you owned Kibort, 3? 4? Let alone 928's... To date I've owned 22 928's, 4 951's, 4 944's and one POS 911. I can 'objectively' tell you there is a difference. If you've had 1000's of hours in a 928 then I've had 10,000's of hours. 99% of those hours were at arrest me speeds.
I like discussing things with you, because you never let it go. Not until we are all tired of laughing.
Scott
I really don't remember Greg asking about Laguna at 125, now was he?? You are the Master in your own Mind! And for those viewing this charade, I just like to stoke the Kibort
First you say adamantly say that there is no difference, then you say that there is a difference if the race is over an hour (and quote "or something")...make up our minds will ya?How many Porsches have you owned Kibort, 3? 4? Let alone 928's... To date I've owned 22 928's, 4 951's, 4 944's and one POS 911. I can 'objectively' tell you there is a difference. If you've had 1000's of hours in a 928 then I've had 10,000's of hours. 99% of those hours were at arrest me speeds.
I like discussing things with you, because you never let it go. Not until we are all tired of laughing.
Scott
Originally Posted by mark kibort
its ALL about driving to the limit. like i said, its not the brakes scott, its the tires that are the limitations. ESPECIALLY if you are NOT racing.
let me give you a reality. suppose you and i are at laguna going over turn 1 and into turn 2. peaking at 125mph or so. we both go real deep. you have S4 and I have S brakes. you really think there will be a stopping difference????
since i have done this reality, over 1000s of times, (more than you have done on you makeshift skid pad) i can tell you the reality of it, is that their is no difference. (condition, same car, same hp, same tires, same driver) Now, there is a difference if the race ends up being over 1hour or something. And, as I said, the main difference is feel, (ie effort,where this is important to some) and wear.
like i said, at the limit, both brakes can have the actual clamping force to stop at the limit of the tire. the tire is the limiting factor, especially since the diffence of the S4 vs S brakes is not all that great (compared to the 79 vs 85 style)
However, again, if you do see a difference, its driver, not brakes ! (same pads, tires, weight, car type, suspension etc)
Mk
let me give you a reality. suppose you and i are at laguna going over turn 1 and into turn 2. peaking at 125mph or so. we both go real deep. you have S4 and I have S brakes. you really think there will be a stopping difference????
since i have done this reality, over 1000s of times, (more than you have done on you makeshift skid pad) i can tell you the reality of it, is that their is no difference. (condition, same car, same hp, same tires, same driver) Now, there is a difference if the race ends up being over 1hour or something. And, as I said, the main difference is feel, (ie effort,where this is important to some) and wear.
like i said, at the limit, both brakes can have the actual clamping force to stop at the limit of the tire. the tire is the limiting factor, especially since the diffence of the S4 vs S brakes is not all that great (compared to the 79 vs 85 style)
However, again, if you do see a difference, its driver, not brakes ! (same pads, tires, weight, car type, suspension etc)
Mk
04-25-2005, 03:10 PM
#18
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Scot, thats like saying, a cabby with the most hours behind the wheel is the best driver, as he has the most seat time! we all know this is not the "reality" that you are talkiing about.
PLUS, if you read my first few posts, i clearly say, " no difference in stopping distances" but YES, differnece is wear, feel and in extreme use..
mk
PLUS, if you read my first few posts, i clearly say, " no difference in stopping distances" but YES, differnece is wear, feel and in extreme use..
mk
04-25-2005, 03:13 PM
#19
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my very first post!
Originally Posted by mark kibort
stopping distance will not be effected. what they do provide is a better feel during high braking activities, and much better heat disappation during racing applications. i had the old single piston calipers on my first 928 racer, and stopping was not different. IN fact, racing with JP at Road america, he had my old style brakes and wasnt that slower at all in braking. my times at laguna seca are only about a second to two seconds faster, much of which is due to lighter weight and more hp (ie 20-30hp or so). most of braking performance is due to the tires and the driver. However, where the S4 brakes will shine (or larger) is i high stopping demand applications.
04-25-2005, 03:59 PM
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Mark;
OK, thaking it down a notch...
What I'm really trying to get across to you is that, your sampling ratio is flawed. You having driven a limited number of 928's, and mostly on the track, there is variablity between the different systems. As I alluded to in my last diatribe, having owned mulitples of every model made, I can surely see a difference. And that is not just some amaturish assesment.
Allow yourself to be openminded enough not to make such blanket as "There is no differences". As the only reason I go off is to prove your ignorance.
Party on.
Scott
OK, thaking it down a notch...
What I'm really trying to get across to you is that, your sampling ratio is flawed. You having driven a limited number of 928's, and mostly on the track, there is variablity between the different systems. As I alluded to in my last diatribe, having owned mulitples of every model made, I can surely see a difference. And that is not just some amaturish assesment.
Allow yourself to be openminded enough not to make such blanket as "There is no differences". As the only reason I go off is to prove your ignorance.
Party on.
Scott
04-25-2005, 04:34 PM
#22
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Taking it down a notch as well.
If you read my posts, its never been a "blanket" If you read them, it was there is no difference in stopping distances. Now, to be clear, this is for a road and track type test. (one off) SURE, there are huge differences in the style, capabilities, weight, feel, etc (which ive mentioned several times, remember?)
the problem with street cars, expecially with "different ones" is that they all have so many other differences that far outweigh the effects of just larger calipers, and pads. (and abs, which ive already said how that effects the stopping performance) Ive also owned and driven over 200,000 miles with mostly an S equiped 928 but also a 79 street and S4 street and race conversion.
I hope i can make it perfectly clear that we are only talking about sheer stopping performance, limited by the tire where both S and S4 brakes will perform similarly. any application where heat build up is involved, i would agree, the S4 are CLEARLY a winner. and why wouldnt they be. S4 brakes are the BEST in the buisness. they are the desired upgrade for most race cars of other manufacturers.
I dont believe my sampling is flawed, due to 1000 of laps with all sorts of types of tires at differnt wear rates and compounds, with lap times all within a narrow range of each other, even when many more changes have been made on weight, HP, set up, size of tire, etc etc.
the point is, the weak link in a braking test is the tire and next the driver. this will determine the raw stopping distance. (ie 60-0) certainly, the way we drive these cars on the street or track, "0" is rarely found from any considerable speed. so, whats the target range? 100-40, 60-20, 70-30mph??? in those ranges, you would have to have a pretty controlled environment, to determine the difference in just S vs S4 brakes.(ignoring the feel, as the S4 will stop with less pressure)
the point is not whether the S4 brakes are better or not. they are. but if someone was going to spend $3k on performance upgrades, would this be the first place to spend the money? that is debateable. Like i said, you find the best drivers in the world, see what they are doing with similar weighted cars with even smaller tires and see how they do with S brakes. once you see this, you see that the S brakes are good to a limit far beyond most drivers capability. more should be spent on DEs, suspension, HP, weight reduction , safety, etc. and just change the S pads and rotors more frequently. I did it for years. very happy with the S4 set up now, but certainly is not the reason for my 1-2 second faster lap times vs my similarly equiped 84 S 5 liter part euro with 30 less hp.
mk
If you read my posts, its never been a "blanket" If you read them, it was there is no difference in stopping distances. Now, to be clear, this is for a road and track type test. (one off) SURE, there are huge differences in the style, capabilities, weight, feel, etc (which ive mentioned several times, remember?)
the problem with street cars, expecially with "different ones" is that they all have so many other differences that far outweigh the effects of just larger calipers, and pads. (and abs, which ive already said how that effects the stopping performance) Ive also owned and driven over 200,000 miles with mostly an S equiped 928 but also a 79 street and S4 street and race conversion.
I hope i can make it perfectly clear that we are only talking about sheer stopping performance, limited by the tire where both S and S4 brakes will perform similarly. any application where heat build up is involved, i would agree, the S4 are CLEARLY a winner. and why wouldnt they be. S4 brakes are the BEST in the buisness. they are the desired upgrade for most race cars of other manufacturers.
I dont believe my sampling is flawed, due to 1000 of laps with all sorts of types of tires at differnt wear rates and compounds, with lap times all within a narrow range of each other, even when many more changes have been made on weight, HP, set up, size of tire, etc etc.
the point is, the weak link in a braking test is the tire and next the driver. this will determine the raw stopping distance. (ie 60-0) certainly, the way we drive these cars on the street or track, "0" is rarely found from any considerable speed. so, whats the target range? 100-40, 60-20, 70-30mph??? in those ranges, you would have to have a pretty controlled environment, to determine the difference in just S vs S4 brakes.(ignoring the feel, as the S4 will stop with less pressure)
the point is not whether the S4 brakes are better or not. they are. but if someone was going to spend $3k on performance upgrades, would this be the first place to spend the money? that is debateable. Like i said, you find the best drivers in the world, see what they are doing with similar weighted cars with even smaller tires and see how they do with S brakes. once you see this, you see that the S brakes are good to a limit far beyond most drivers capability. more should be spent on DEs, suspension, HP, weight reduction , safety, etc. and just change the S pads and rotors more frequently. I did it for years. very happy with the S4 set up now, but certainly is not the reason for my 1-2 second faster lap times vs my similarly equiped 84 S 5 liter part euro with 30 less hp.
mk
