Warren, great minds think alike!

I "think" we can do just what your talking about with all stock components but adding the cometic head gasket.

 

Shane,
Are you going to do this setup for this spring or summer? I hope so, I would like to see the results, which should be amazing.

Do you know at what hp the OEM head gasket usually starting to leak at?
I think I would wait to do the head gasket since I would normally only be running 8-9 psi, and MUCH less back pressure on the exhaust side. Only in extreme cases would nitrous be used.

I think the cometic gasket is a good idea, however I would probably like to see how long the stock one will take the level of punishment planned for it.

 

Coatings will be our friends.

 

Brendan,

Where will coatings be best used?

 

Personally, I'll be coating the piston crowns on my SLIGHTLY ground down 89 pistons (not as thick as Tony's 87s, so nowhere to machine), and hopefully will coat the skirts as long as I find sources that say the Polymoly will work with alusil.
I've really thought about coating the heads and valve faces, but no decision yet.

Mains, Rod bearings will be coated as well.

 

Hi Warren,

Not to burst your bubble, but psi does not make power, CFM or more precisely #'s of air and fuel do.. Andy's kit at 8-9psi will not make 600CHP unless your BSFC is very much lower than a stock 85-86. Why would you assume this if Shane is running 11psi and got about 500CHP..? Unfortunately, things involved in supercharging are not that simple..

Detonation ruins headgaskets, and if you design for this, even the stock gasket will be fine if the setup is healthy to begin with. You can double the power output of an engine, and only need to beef up the components to handle 20% increase in the pressure loads if the design is proper, unless you plan a higher RPM threshold... It is not as simple as bolting stuff on to the engine.. Sorry...

Andy, Tim, and many other people should be able to tell you this fact. The system as a whole needs to work properly.. If you are going to the trouble, then just do it once, and do it right.. If you don't, you will have to redo the engine when you grenade it...

PS.. I think your intake cams are good for an SC appliccation, but the 968 intake valve of 39mm or so would help... The headers will only help if they provide scavenging.. You will need more fuel than 30# injectors can give assuming stock 85-86 BSFC.... Using Andy's Autorotor 2.2L setup, the supercharger will have to push at least 800 CFM to get you to 600 CHP.. Andy will be able to tell you the pressure loss in his manifold and air filter setup, then you can figure how much "boost" (resistance to flow) you will need to move the requisite amount of air... to make your desired power...

Have you thought about spark..? In addition, will you use a wet or dry NOS for the 50 shot..?

Not putting anyone own, just trying to answer some of your questions...

 

What's BSFC?

 

Brake Specific Fuel Consumption
BSFC is a frequently misunderstood term that rates an engine’s efficiency in terms of fuel usage. More specifically, it is the measured fuel flow in pounds per hour divided by the horsepower.

http://www.westechperformance.com/pa...ding/bsfc.html

 

I think the MSDS headers would be too small for that amount of power. I'd say something like the Devek Level 2, or better yet, Tom Cloutier's scavenger headers, if you have that kind of money for headers... I know others will disagree, but I think the manifolds we have are not going to cut it for high hp, bottom line, they are just too small!

Heres what I would do, money granted of course, but throwing out your stock block and heads thing:

Twin turbo, if you're willing to cut some metal up (because it wont take power to make power [no charger to spin off a pulley])
Individual throttle bodies
Custom fab some cams
9:1 compression
1bar boost
968 valves and high-rev springs
Drill the f'ing crank!
Bore it out to as close to 5.5l as your block will allow
Sleeve the block (if need be)
Perfect Power PRS8 engine management and ditch the MAF
Rev limit at 7200
Balance the entire rotating assembly
3" pipes from turbos-back
Big injectors
Large intercooler
Then tackle other parts of the car, like safety, brakes, tranny, etc.

Or, supercharge it with Tim's kit to individual throttle bodies, Level 2 headers to dual 3" w/custom crossover, bigger injectors, and call it good with 1bar of boost on a good head gasket (early 32vs have slightly lower compression, right?), and an air-water intercooler. Dont forget different engine management too.

If you get your goal, keep us posted along the way

 

Blau,
I have noticed that it seems there is a bottleneck for horsepower above 9 psi for 32v cars with a stock exhaust that seems to hover around the low 400 rwhp mark. I also think that undue stress from excessive psi will only produce more heat, not horsepower beyond 9 psi until the flow problem is fixed. I see the flow problem being the exhaust, designed for 320 hp or so. If the exhaust setup is restrictive, then when the exhaust valve closes there will be some burned gases in the chamber upon the next intake stroke, causing more heat and less power.
I've seen stock 93' Supra turbos produce 800+ horsepower with stock block and heads, and bolt on improvements. That includes valves. So I have to think that the bottleneck in forced induction would more likely be in other areas.
I do agree that bigger valves would help some, but the whole idea for me is to make as much hp with stock block and heads.

 

IIRC - Tim Murphy's 550+ rwhp run is with stock SS manifolds.

 

Hanzer
True Supras make some big power with just bolt on's, but remember that is with a HUGE turbo with really bad turbo lag to make that power and they are probably running 20+ psi on 100 octane to get those numbers....in a street car all that lag (say nothing at all below 3,000rpms) would be annoying. Have you seen the dyno curves on supras....most look like a rocket taking off around 5K+, However I did see a nitrous+turbo that was above 1000whp from 5K all the way to 8K+ peaking at over 1130whp! That must be fun to drive!

 

Iceman - good point. Here is a 980rwhp Supra - engine is set to a 4k stall.

http://www.racingflix.com/featuredride.asp?f=10

 

Warren,

Please see my comments in <<..>>


Quote//Blau,
I have noticed that it seems there is a bottleneck for horsepower above 9 psi for 32v cars with a stock exhaust that seems to hover around the low 400 rwhp mark. << The bottleneck is from flow mass restriction. It could be cam, valve timing, head chamber, manifold design, and several other factors. Unless you have measured a known restriction in a specific area, do not be so quick to assume that the restriction is on the exhaust header.>> I also think that undue stress from excessive psi will only produce more heat, not horsepower beyond 9 psi until the flow problem is fixed. I see the flow problem being the exhaust, designed for 320 hp or so. << This is a possibility, but I doubt that the stock exhaust cannot flow the gases produced at the 600 CHP level.>> If the exhaust setup is restrictive <<Measure the restriction with a set of pressure gauges before assuming, or ask someone who has done this>>>, then when the exhaust valve closes there will be some burned gases in the chamber upon the next intake stroke, causing more heat and less power.<< Good theory, but the valve timing can solve this if there is no restriction in the exhaust. Unless you measure it for sure, you are only guessing.. It is also possible to calculate the flow rate in the exhaust tube to see at what flow rate there would be a restriction. Inaddition, the exhaust port may be the restriction, and not the header.>>>
I've seen stock 93' Supra turbos produce 800+ horsepower with stock block and heads, and bolt on improvements.<< Please compare apples to apples.... The Supra is designed differently, and it would not be a similar comparison.. A more appropriate comparison on what is possible, would be a 944 16V Turbo from Powerhaus in Arizona. They produce over 400 RWHP on pump gas at 1 bar. A 968 Turbo produces over 500 RWHP... A 944 16V has very similar heads to your car, and the same as an S4..>> That includes valves. So I have to think that the bottleneck in forced induction would more likely be in other areas. << DOn't be so sure unless you have data to support your measurements or at least others' data that support your theory in the same application under similar conditions.>>>
I do agree that bigger valves would help some, but the whole idea for me is to make as much hp with stock block and heads. << If you want to make as much as possible with stock heads, you can reasonably double the power output, but you will have to be very careful with the detonation issue... You should also measure the intake restriction before doing anything to the exhaust... This will provide more gains than on the exhaust side in the beginning. If you are keeping the stock heads, to get to that level you will have to either have the heads ported etc, or do something with the cams.. This will get pricey, as head work will be about $2k, and special cams may be about $2k as well.. You will then be deliberating valves, as you should not do it twice as it's a waste of $$$.... As you have the heads off, then it will be something like... Oh, I should use lower compression pistons, and drill the crank as well.... Then if doing that, you are at a rebuild......... If you want to just bolt on a kit, buy Andy's, as I think he has the only one availabe as best as I know, and then turn up the boost with 100 Octane race gas to the point safely allowed by the gas.. You could also add a can of Octane booster every fill up..... Using race gas or Octane Booster is the easiest way to crank up the power without having to do much more than "bolt on" stuff....>>>
__________________
Warren


I am building a one off system for my S4, and have done a bit of research and engineering of many items... It is a LOT of work to get things right... Just bolting stuff on is not that easy, there is much development time, and calculations that have to be done to get it right.... Oh, and the car has to run properly BEFORE you start ANY of this stuff, if not you will destroy it...

The 5 speed Trans will not take more than 450hp for very long.... Ask any of the people that race high HP cars.. They have ALL destroyed their 5spds if they run the cars fast often..... The Auto box can take much more power.... 600+ HP/TQ.....according to some, and 800 according to others... At this power level, you will break stuff, trust me... I've seen it happen a few times....

Cheers,

 

Hacker - true he gets that much from stock manifolds, but how much more would he get with header work? Noticeabely more, no doubt.