Group Buy, Custom Keys - Initial interest check
12-24-2004, 04:40 AM
#1
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Group Buy, Custom Keys - Initial interest check
Hey folks, I had this brainstorm after a fruitless search for a better key blank. With a local locksmith charging $35 for a key made from a boring, generic blank, and $100 for a copy made with the Porsche blank with lighted key head, I'm thinking that there ought to be something better. The generic blanks are... well... generic. The Porsche one looks like a Toyota key with a P-crest on it(a tiny one at that) IMHO.
So, I want to do an initial check and see how many of you would be interested in a custom key blank, one that evokes the quality and the chunky, rounded solidity of the 928. This will help determine whether the most appropriate course of action would be to design the key and the process with limited production in mind, small-run prototype methods, or for all I know I'm the only one interested and only one will ever be made. If they get snapped up quickly enough and with enough enthusiasm then it may be possible to get the Big 3 interested... but I'm getting ahead of myself.
So, in a nutshell, what I am proposing is to develop a special key for the 928 with the key head designed around genuine 356 hood badges mounted back-to-back. I want to check interest here in order to get input from the 928 comminity on styling as well as to gauge what the initial production quantity should be. Certainly the price per unit is expected to be less if we can have more of them made initially. As near as I can tell, the generic key blank has the largest head that will work on a 928 key, the most restrictive point of use being the ignition. Below is a generic key with the 356 badge showing that it will fit in the available space:
I took the above picture and played around with that and a silhouette of the back of the 928, thinking that it would be cool to have the key emulate the curves of the 928. I would want the head of the key to be kind of thick and chunky, and what I have attempted to depict in the first pic below is an idea where the head of the key is shaped like the back of a 928, with the rear window being cut out to accept the keyring. The outlines of the quarter windows could be represented with narrow grooves that go around the head, and the head of the key would taper to a considerably thinner dimension near the "roofline". After looking at it a bit, I realized that I would not feel any need to have a key fob with this key, and I might prefer to have the broad end of the keyhead simply rounded, like the butt of a quality knife or sword.
The crest would be recessed into a pocket on either side of the key and potted in a hard, clear resin such as is seen on conventional key fobs. I think this would be essential because I can just see the crest getting chipped up by pocket change and other keys, the gold-colored plating wearing off, etc. and I have attempted to depict that in the side view below. In this view the simpler, non-keyring version is shown.
I've been rolling over this idea in my head, and clearly there are a lot of decisions that would have to be made before the first real metal prototype is made. The primary area of concern is over the actual cutting of the key. Obviously there are those who are very good at this and I have no ambition of competing with anyone on this. So the first assumption is that the blank will be cut and tested elsewhere. The second assumption is that a significant number of attempts to cut keys end up with a wasted blank. I see two approaches to address these issues:
a) Make the blank as a solid piece, from butt to tip. Obviously this is the most durable solution. However, I imagine that it is common enough for blanks to be inadvertantly ruined while attempting to copy keys, that this would be a real bummer to have such a nice(and relatively expensive) item ruined. So, going with this option, it might be better to ship the raw blank, have the owner work out how and where to get it cut and tested, then once that is done it would be shipped back to have the relatively expensive hood badges mounted and potted.
b) Make the keyhead only, such that the owner ships a working key which is then cut and modified to fit on the keyhead. Perhaps it could be cut with a mild taper, then drilled and tapped and held in place with a small screw running through the length of the keyhead and a generous application of loctite on the taper.
I'm leaning more toward (b) because it involves less shipping and if the locks on the car ever need to be re-keyed it would be relatively simple and cheap just to get a new shank mounted to the keyhead. Also, it is conceivable that if this method is used, it could be adapted for other keys, e.g. 911, 944, etc.
So, then it's on to the many smaller issues that mostly amount to a matter of preference:
1) I'm looking into having these investment-cast of bronze and nickel plated. Bronze instead of brass because of the additional strength, and nickel plating to match the typical nickel-plated brass key shanks. Other possibilities are being looked at, but initially that seems to be the most cost-effective approach. A hard Titanium-Nitride coating was suggested to me because of the enhanced durability and nice gold color, but IMHO it's not such a great idea to have the key so much harder than the tumblers. Which would you rather replace?
They could certainly be made of stainless, roughed out on a CNC and hand-polished. That would result in a significantly higher price though.
2) This one is kind of a biggie.... hole for keychain, or no hole for keychain? If this key is carried around on a keychain there will be inevitable scuffing and wear through the plating, unless it is made of stainless. Also if the shank and head are held together with a longitudinal screw, then the very end(roof of car silhouette) would have to be much broader to accomodate a hole for the screw to pass through. Another possibility is to have the rounded hammerstrike as shown above, and the screw could be recessed so that you could either place a blank cover cap over it or some sort of fitting with a hole for the keyring in it could be threaded in there and loctited in place.
3) If this is to be made using method (a) above, then perhaps the best approach would be to make an alarm key blank which would simply be cut down to work on non-alarm cars. Thoughts?
4) Any other thoughts?
After rolling this over and over in my head, I realized that I would need a 3D mockup of this. For the past week and a half, I have been experimenting in my free time with a process for duplicating the hood badge in plastic, so that I would have something to work with as I played around mocking this up. That was an interesting process in itself, but for $40 I can make a pile of fake hood badges for my own purposes, building mock-ups and playing with this idea. Below is a first cut at a prototype, which I will use to make sure there is plenty of clearance around the ignition. Let me reiterate that this is a VERY ROUGH first cut. I would want the interface between the key and the keyhead to be more graceful, and for the edges to be more rounded, like my side view above.
So, I want to do an initial check and see how many of you would be interested in a custom key blank, one that evokes the quality and the chunky, rounded solidity of the 928. This will help determine whether the most appropriate course of action would be to design the key and the process with limited production in mind, small-run prototype methods, or for all I know I'm the only one interested and only one will ever be made. If they get snapped up quickly enough and with enough enthusiasm then it may be possible to get the Big 3 interested... but I'm getting ahead of myself.
So, in a nutshell, what I am proposing is to develop a special key for the 928 with the key head designed around genuine 356 hood badges mounted back-to-back. I want to check interest here in order to get input from the 928 comminity on styling as well as to gauge what the initial production quantity should be. Certainly the price per unit is expected to be less if we can have more of them made initially. As near as I can tell, the generic key blank has the largest head that will work on a 928 key, the most restrictive point of use being the ignition. Below is a generic key with the 356 badge showing that it will fit in the available space:
I took the above picture and played around with that and a silhouette of the back of the 928, thinking that it would be cool to have the key emulate the curves of the 928. I would want the head of the key to be kind of thick and chunky, and what I have attempted to depict in the first pic below is an idea where the head of the key is shaped like the back of a 928, with the rear window being cut out to accept the keyring. The outlines of the quarter windows could be represented with narrow grooves that go around the head, and the head of the key would taper to a considerably thinner dimension near the "roofline". After looking at it a bit, I realized that I would not feel any need to have a key fob with this key, and I might prefer to have the broad end of the keyhead simply rounded, like the butt of a quality knife or sword.
The crest would be recessed into a pocket on either side of the key and potted in a hard, clear resin such as is seen on conventional key fobs. I think this would be essential because I can just see the crest getting chipped up by pocket change and other keys, the gold-colored plating wearing off, etc. and I have attempted to depict that in the side view below. In this view the simpler, non-keyring version is shown.
I've been rolling over this idea in my head, and clearly there are a lot of decisions that would have to be made before the first real metal prototype is made. The primary area of concern is over the actual cutting of the key. Obviously there are those who are very good at this and I have no ambition of competing with anyone on this. So the first assumption is that the blank will be cut and tested elsewhere. The second assumption is that a significant number of attempts to cut keys end up with a wasted blank. I see two approaches to address these issues:
a) Make the blank as a solid piece, from butt to tip. Obviously this is the most durable solution. However, I imagine that it is common enough for blanks to be inadvertantly ruined while attempting to copy keys, that this would be a real bummer to have such a nice(and relatively expensive) item ruined. So, going with this option, it might be better to ship the raw blank, have the owner work out how and where to get it cut and tested, then once that is done it would be shipped back to have the relatively expensive hood badges mounted and potted.
b) Make the keyhead only, such that the owner ships a working key which is then cut and modified to fit on the keyhead. Perhaps it could be cut with a mild taper, then drilled and tapped and held in place with a small screw running through the length of the keyhead and a generous application of loctite on the taper.
I'm leaning more toward (b) because it involves less shipping and if the locks on the car ever need to be re-keyed it would be relatively simple and cheap just to get a new shank mounted to the keyhead. Also, it is conceivable that if this method is used, it could be adapted for other keys, e.g. 911, 944, etc.
So, then it's on to the many smaller issues that mostly amount to a matter of preference:
1) I'm looking into having these investment-cast of bronze and nickel plated. Bronze instead of brass because of the additional strength, and nickel plating to match the typical nickel-plated brass key shanks. Other possibilities are being looked at, but initially that seems to be the most cost-effective approach. A hard Titanium-Nitride coating was suggested to me because of the enhanced durability and nice gold color, but IMHO it's not such a great idea to have the key so much harder than the tumblers. Which would you rather replace?
They could certainly be made of stainless, roughed out on a CNC and hand-polished. That would result in a significantly higher price though.2) This one is kind of a biggie.... hole for keychain, or no hole for keychain? If this key is carried around on a keychain there will be inevitable scuffing and wear through the plating, unless it is made of stainless. Also if the shank and head are held together with a longitudinal screw, then the very end(roof of car silhouette) would have to be much broader to accomodate a hole for the screw to pass through. Another possibility is to have the rounded hammerstrike as shown above, and the screw could be recessed so that you could either place a blank cover cap over it or some sort of fitting with a hole for the keyring in it could be threaded in there and loctited in place.
3) If this is to be made using method (a) above, then perhaps the best approach would be to make an alarm key blank which would simply be cut down to work on non-alarm cars. Thoughts?
4) Any other thoughts?
After rolling this over and over in my head, I realized that I would need a 3D mockup of this. For the past week and a half, I have been experimenting in my free time with a process for duplicating the hood badge in plastic, so that I would have something to work with as I played around mocking this up. That was an interesting process in itself, but for $40 I can make a pile of fake hood badges for my own purposes, building mock-ups and playing with this idea. Below is a first cut at a prototype, which I will use to make sure there is plenty of clearance around the ignition. Let me reiterate that this is a VERY ROUGH first cut.
I would want the interface between the key and the keyhead to be more graceful, and for the edges to be more rounded, like my side view above.
12-24-2004, 05:10 AM
#2
928 Barrister
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
I like the idea, and I need another key. I have one original and a copy made by a dealer (for $125 
), and given to me by the PO. I was planning to wait until I made another run to LA and get Jim Bailey to make a copy for $25.
(good deal). Who wil cut the blank?
), and given to me by the PO. I was planning to wait until I made another run to LA and get Jim Bailey to make a copy for $25.(good deal). Who wil cut the blank?
12-24-2004, 06:12 AM
#3
Race Director
Dave
I would be interested in a key like that. I vote for the key chain version. It wouldn't be hard to make alarm & non-alarm versions....is it that simple to cut the alarm key to make it work?
I would be interested in a key like that. I vote for the key chain version. It wouldn't be hard to make alarm & non-alarm versions....is it that simple to cut the alarm key to make it work?
12-24-2004, 12:11 PM
#6
Three Wheelin'
key prototypes
Originally Posted by Scott M.
My NSX and 300ZX both have Titanium keys, the NSX with a 'A' logo as the handle. Something of that nature would be cool by me.
Scott
Scott
In any case, anything other than the cheap, generic blanks or expensive Porsche keys would be nice!
Good ideas-- count me in!
12-24-2004, 02:17 PM
#7
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Guys, I have some ideas about how to make the key either with or without the hole for the keyring without having to make different keyheads. Maybe. I'll be bouncing ideas off of my brother, the master toolmaker that would be doing the fabrication. I'll be out of town this weekend, visiting him and his family, and my parents... he will undoubtedly have ideas too.
I have heard that the shorter key can easily be made from the alarm blank. The guy at Lockworld in S.F. told me this, but he was a bit puzzled. "The alarm blank costs more" he said, "So why would you want to do that?" Well, he had enough 928 key blanks on the wall behind him to fill your pockets with, so I understand his question.
Titanium is an interesting thought... but AFAIK it doesn't polish well. Ti is a tough metal to machine, and if the added expense of machining is part of the mix, why not go with stainless, which DOES polish well? Also, I think that I'm safe simply taking Porsche badges and gluing them to an item and selling it... people do it all the time. But if I start reproducing the badge, for example laser engraving, I think that opens up a whole new can of worms legally.
Ron, as I mentioned above I don't think we are qualified to be cutting the blanks. I'll say it again... I have no intention of trying to compete with the many folks who already do this so well. I'm leaning heavily toward option (b) above because of this issue and because of the potential to address a broader market.
I don't have a price yet, but hope to be able to narrow that down soon. But... have any of you priced out genuine 356 hood badges? I can get a break by buying in quantity but they are still pricey. My best guess at the moment is that these puppies may cost around $125 each for an initial quantity of 10... give or take a bit. That puts it in the ballpark of the genuine Porsche item, but for a MUCH nicer key IMHO.
I have heard that the shorter key can easily be made from the alarm blank. The guy at Lockworld in S.F. told me this, but he was a bit puzzled. "The alarm blank costs more" he said, "So why would you want to do that?" Well, he had enough 928 key blanks on the wall behind him to fill your pockets with, so I understand his question.
Titanium is an interesting thought... but AFAIK it doesn't polish well. Ti is a tough metal to machine, and if the added expense of machining is part of the mix, why not go with stainless, which DOES polish well? Also, I think that I'm safe simply taking Porsche badges and gluing them to an item and selling it... people do it all the time. But if I start reproducing the badge, for example laser engraving, I think that opens up a whole new can of worms legally.
Ron, as I mentioned above I don't think we are qualified to be cutting the blanks. I'll say it again... I have no intention of trying to compete with the many folks who already do this so well. I'm leaning heavily toward option (b) above because of this issue and because of the potential to address a broader market.
I don't have a price yet, but hope to be able to narrow that down soon. But... have any of you priced out genuine 356 hood badges? I can get a break by buying in quantity but they are still pricey. My best guess at the moment is that these puppies may cost around $125 each for an initial quantity of 10... give or take a bit. That puts it in the ballpark of the genuine Porsche item, but for a MUCH nicer key IMHO.
Trending Topics
12-24-2004, 03:05 PM
#8
Inventor
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
12-24-2004, 03:54 PM
#9
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by PorKen
12-26-2004, 07:24 AM
#15
Cottage Industry Sponsor
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
I don't understand why nobody can make key blanks that work with the standard lighted keyhead. This would seem the most logical thing for me to start with.
Apparently Porsche does ont release any of those uncut. Anybody have an idea why?
Apparently Porsche does ont release any of those uncut. Anybody have an idea why?