The 928 engine as art.
11-03-2004, 10:41 PM
#46
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Originally Posted by Jim bailey - 928 International
Anders I could be mistaken BUT I do not think the King was either elected or HIRED for that position 
However our President elect is not exactly know for his command of the English language either.
However our President elect is not exactly know for his command of the English language either.
11-03-2004, 10:52 PM
#47
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Personally, I would not consider a 928 engine a work of art. It is a work of engineering.
The difference is that engineering is oriented towards function, while art is oriented towards visual, touchable (haptic), hearable or otherwise feelable impression.
The 928 engine was not conceived to be visually attractive, but to propel a sports car in an efficient, powerful manner. THe fact that the intake system and maybe the valve covers happen to look decent are merely cosmetic work on an otherwise purely functional object.
Now, if you talk about the body and interior style of the 928 - there is some serious art involved. Wolfgang Möbius and his team put a lot of effort into that shape under the guidance or Anatole Lapine. IT resulted in attractive shapes, lines, areas, and proportions that not only conceal the true size of the car, but live in harmony and give the car a timeless shape.
Coming up with this "look" is an art form that is also referred to as product design, industrial design, or transportation design. It's essentially a creative process that turns art into manufacturable goods that people can use and hopefully will enjoy using more than items that are just engineered. That's because the design is the interface between product and the user.
The difference is that engineering is oriented towards function, while art is oriented towards visual, touchable (haptic), hearable or otherwise feelable impression.
The 928 engine was not conceived to be visually attractive, but to propel a sports car in an efficient, powerful manner. THe fact that the intake system and maybe the valve covers happen to look decent are merely cosmetic work on an otherwise purely functional object.
Now, if you talk about the body and interior style of the 928 - there is some serious art involved. Wolfgang Möbius and his team put a lot of effort into that shape under the guidance or Anatole Lapine. IT resulted in attractive shapes, lines, areas, and proportions that not only conceal the true size of the car, but live in harmony and give the car a timeless shape.
Coming up with this "look" is an art form that is also referred to as product design, industrial design, or transportation design. It's essentially a creative process that turns art into manufacturable goods that people can use and hopefully will enjoy using more than items that are just engineered. That's because the design is the interface between product and the user.
11-04-2004, 01:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Intrinsicate
Thank you, Jim Bailey, for your defense! (I taught English for twenty years)
11-04-2004, 04:28 AM
#50
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I'm not getting into this! I'm not getting into this! No way! Nope. Not me.
Oh, all right.
Nicole, I must take exception to your dismissal of the engine as not possessing that quality of an object or process to which we refer as "art". The arguable suspicion that the designers of the 928 engine didn't consciously set out to create art doesn't prevent that achievement from having occurred. Aesthetic decisions were made while creating form, including the choices of materials.
Composition was given conscious consideration and alternatives were discarded along the way to arriving at the final product. Visual and tactile pleasure were given considerable, though not extreme, attention. And finally, art doesn't have to be exclusive of function; some of the most beautiful objects and processes are purely and brilliantly conceived functionally. They are the most simple and functional forms imaginable in response to the forces demanding their creation.
Mies comes to mind. Raymond Lowey does also. Some examples of this principle include tool design. Objects that are so strikingly well conceived that their form is at once appreciated as aesthetic without that being the primary objective during their conception. Others are the result of considering how to best suit a particular manufacturing process which is unchangeable. And that would include, then, Mr. Ferdinand Porsche who penned the 904 and the 911.
Art as separate from function is at best sculpture. But art is achieved when an unusually ingenious response to functional requirements results in form that is aesthetically perceived as satisfying forces dictating its creation. How many times have you dismantled a Porsche or a part of a Porsche, then tried to put it back together. You sit there scratching your head while the parts don't want to go back together. And then it hits you that there could only be one way to put this together and it is so ingeniously right and well thought out, it could only be that way. You know Physics and then you realize that someone else designed this stuff that also knew Physics and knew it well. Then you realize why these cars last and perform the way they do, and why the Cayenne was not rushed into production. It transcends the mundane everyday industrial designs that most people encounter. It is more than sculpture. It is the best industrial design. It is unusually fit for its function and it is aesthetically pleasing because of that trait, as well as its form and texture and finish and composition. I must say that the Japanese are good at this. Simple concepts are applied to satisfy form and process requirements which result in aesthetic pleasure when experienced. It permeates their society down to mannerisms.
Aw crap, now look what you made me do. I didn't want to get into this and it is past my bedtime.
VU: I saw a TV documentary of a woman who lost both arms. She leads an almost normal life, including driving a car, bathing and clothing her child, preparing meals for her family, etc. , using her feet. Food for thought. When I accidently got my right hand caught in a boat motor propeller, and it emerged dangling from the arm, it was sewn back together mostly. I learned to use my left hand and am now ambidextrous. You have content to present that sometimes needs format to be appreciated and accepted, whether the person
to whom you wish to present it is fair in his/her evaluation of you or not. It is a shame to waste the transmittal of that content for lack of format. No malice intended.
Oh, all right.
Nicole, I must take exception to your dismissal of the engine as not possessing that quality of an object or process to which we refer as "art". The arguable suspicion that the designers of the 928 engine didn't consciously set out to create art doesn't prevent that achievement from having occurred. Aesthetic decisions were made while creating form, including the choices of materials.
Composition was given conscious consideration and alternatives were discarded along the way to arriving at the final product. Visual and tactile pleasure were given considerable, though not extreme, attention. And finally, art doesn't have to be exclusive of function; some of the most beautiful objects and processes are purely and brilliantly conceived functionally. They are the most simple and functional forms imaginable in response to the forces demanding their creation.
Mies comes to mind. Raymond Lowey does also. Some examples of this principle include tool design. Objects that are so strikingly well conceived that their form is at once appreciated as aesthetic without that being the primary objective during their conception. Others are the result of considering how to best suit a particular manufacturing process which is unchangeable. And that would include, then, Mr. Ferdinand Porsche who penned the 904 and the 911.
Art as separate from function is at best sculpture. But art is achieved when an unusually ingenious response to functional requirements results in form that is aesthetically perceived as satisfying forces dictating its creation. How many times have you dismantled a Porsche or a part of a Porsche, then tried to put it back together. You sit there scratching your head while the parts don't want to go back together. And then it hits you that there could only be one way to put this together and it is so ingeniously right and well thought out, it could only be that way. You know Physics and then you realize that someone else designed this stuff that also knew Physics and knew it well. Then you realize why these cars last and perform the way they do, and why the Cayenne was not rushed into production. It transcends the mundane everyday industrial designs that most people encounter. It is more than sculpture. It is the best industrial design. It is unusually fit for its function and it is aesthetically pleasing because of that trait, as well as its form and texture and finish and composition. I must say that the Japanese are good at this. Simple concepts are applied to satisfy form and process requirements which result in aesthetic pleasure when experienced. It permeates their society down to mannerisms.
Aw crap, now look what you made me do. I didn't want to get into this and it is past my bedtime.
VU: I saw a TV documentary of a woman who lost both arms. She leads an almost normal life, including driving a car, bathing and clothing her child, preparing meals for her family, etc. , using her feet. Food for thought. When I accidently got my right hand caught in a boat motor propeller, and it emerged dangling from the arm, it was sewn back together mostly. I learned to use my left hand and am now ambidextrous. You have content to present that sometimes needs format to be appreciated and accepted, whether the person
to whom you wish to present it is fair in his/her evaluation of you or not. It is a shame to waste the transmittal of that content for lack of format. No malice intended.
11-04-2004, 04:44 AM
#51
Drifting
the fact that an engine has a function outside of the art domain dosent preclude it from also being artistic. many modern sculptures utilise engineering in order to exist and produce their effect, and which example of fine art does not utilise the technologies of the day be that in canvas or paint.
nicole makes a good point in defining an art object as something which creates an impression on the senses and in this way the 928 engine can definitely be seen as art! consider the passion of those involved in its creation, the intention to produce a moving, breathing mechanism for no other purpose than to stimulate the senses, auraly, kinestheticaly and visualy - those nice cam covers..
im not sure if this definition holds for contemporary art as much as classical. it seems now that the artist is less concerned to make a favourable impression or sometimes even to be noticed.
im with viribus on this one though as i failed dumb english in high school!
nicole makes a good point in defining an art object as something which creates an impression on the senses and in this way the 928 engine can definitely be seen as art! consider the passion of those involved in its creation, the intention to produce a moving, breathing mechanism for no other purpose than to stimulate the senses, auraly, kinestheticaly and visualy - those nice cam covers..
im not sure if this definition holds for contemporary art as much as classical. it seems now that the artist is less concerned to make a favourable impression or sometimes even to be noticed.
im with viribus on this one though as i failed dumb english in high school!
11-04-2004, 04:57 AM
#52
As an object lesson in vehicle art may I propose the MV Agusta F750 Serie 'Oro'. The term exquisite is vastly inadequate.
Doing this to avoid getting embroiled in my favourite hobby-horse. English and how she is spoke.
BTW Nicole. "haptic"?? new to me, pls enlighten, I have no dictionary available. To me touchable = tangible.
Colin 89GT
Doing this to avoid getting embroiled in my favourite hobby-horse. English and how she is spoke.
BTW Nicole. "haptic"?? new to me, pls enlighten, I have no dictionary available. To me touchable = tangible.
Colin 89GT
11-04-2004, 10:12 AM
#53
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I have a bunch of these....resizing now.....be back in a few minutes with the "collection".
Last edited by Gretch; 11-04-2004 at 10:36 AM.
11-04-2004, 10:17 AM
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here
11-04-2004, 10:20 AM
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and
11-04-2004, 11:42 AM
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It is much more than mere visual art VU, it is musical art also. The symphony of 8 Porsche cylinders accelerating up to a 6200 rpm crescendo is what captures our attention to the visual. It is poetry in motion!
11-04-2004, 06:11 PM
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A long time ago back when I had to take a stupid art history course... Had a GREAT teacher.
I just wanted to point out that it takes an expert's appraisal and appreciation to really understand the depth and full beauty of true art. Learned a lot about styles, approach, compromises, tool/medium choices, etc. Then you could appreciate why Seurat used dots, Van Meer uses fake horizons (and probably a camera obscura), Michaelangelo preferred a certain type of marble...
As a suggestion then, since we're the de-facto "experts" on the 928 why don't we give ViribusUnits a bit of help and post what we consider true engineering art (with appropriate explanations about -why-).
No matter how he spells he's going to need some points helping explain technical achievements to the non-technical. The more I work on my car the more I'm impressed by the Porsche engineers. "Wow, I've never seen it done that way before." But that's because I'm already familiar with the 'norms'.
Someone's already mentioned the spider intake... So why is that "art" and how did the function determine the beautiful form?
Had a GREAT teacher.I just wanted to point out that it takes an expert's appraisal and appreciation to really understand the depth and full beauty of true art. Learned a lot about styles, approach, compromises, tool/medium choices, etc. Then you could appreciate why Seurat used dots, Van Meer uses fake horizons (and probably a camera obscura), Michaelangelo preferred a certain type of marble...
As a suggestion then, since we're the de-facto "experts" on the 928 why don't we give ViribusUnits a bit of help and post what we consider true engineering art (with appropriate explanations about -why-).
No matter how he spells he's going to need some points helping explain technical achievements to the non-technical. The more I work on my car the more I'm impressed by the Porsche engineers. "Wow, I've never seen it done that way before." But that's because I'm already familiar with the 'norms'.
Someone's already mentioned the spider intake... So why is that "art" and how did the function determine the beautiful form?