Twin Turbo Kit Update
12-09-2004, 10:00 PM
#46
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"...just don't try to convince me/us it's better."
Dave, I don't think Brian is trying to convince you or anyone more than me or anyone else having this conversation. We are just throwing thoughts out there and taking several aspects into consideration. I was (and still am) a Ford guy...my F150 has 278K on the clock and the 5.0 runs as strong as ever. Maintenance is key...just like the 928 cars.
I have to disagree that the American engines need freshening up more than any other mid to high output engine out there. The old Chevy engines are good for door stops, but the Big 3 realized that to stay competative with the Euro market, they had to build some better engines. Todays crate engines are not to be snubbed. I see a lot of Corvettes in healthy condition. The shear numbers of them are certainly going to leave a few by the side of the road. Probably because the owners buy 'em, roast 'em and toast 'em. I would expect that maybe 5% of the American population sticks to a rigid maintenance routine for their cars.
Anyway, it's all in fun and if I ever get the opportunity, I will take a 928 shell and see what I can stuff in there...removing the Porsche badge of course
Dave, I don't think Brian is trying to convince you or anyone more than me or anyone else having this conversation. We are just throwing thoughts out there and taking several aspects into consideration. I was (and still am) a Ford guy...my F150 has 278K on the clock and the 5.0 runs as strong as ever. Maintenance is key...just like the 928 cars.
I have to disagree that the American engines need freshening up more than any other mid to high output engine out there. The old Chevy engines are good for door stops, but the Big 3 realized that to stay competative with the Euro market, they had to build some better engines. Todays crate engines are not to be snubbed. I see a lot of Corvettes in healthy condition. The shear numbers of them are certainly going to leave a few by the side of the road. Probably because the owners buy 'em, roast 'em and toast 'em. I would expect that maybe 5% of the American population sticks to a rigid maintenance routine for their cars.
Anyway, it's all in fun and if I ever get the opportunity, I will take a 928 shell and see what I can stuff in there...removing the Porsche badge of course
12-09-2004, 10:33 PM
#47
Drifting
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I am not likely to build a Chevy or Ford engined 928 anytime soon.
But in my quest for a supercar, when I have the funds, I will probably
choose to build a kit car from scratch. But the choice of powerplants,
when you are seeking 200+MPH, and extreme acceleration, is a big factor.
If you want a car with 600-800 horsepower, you need to pick the best
engine for the job. One that can get you to that power level without
spending 30-50K on the engine alone. If I wanted to get my 928
engine to the 600-800 horsepower range, I would not even be able
to do it. Because it has not been done yet. So it would be trial
and error, and all custom systems. Whereas if I bought an
American engine, like a Twin Turbo from Gale Banks, I would
already be at that level, with proven techniques. I am not
saying any of these engines will last 200K miles. I am just
saying if you want an *extreme* car, I think the 928 is
potentially a pretty deep money pit. But if I was going
to build a "supercar" from scratch, I think I might very
well start with a 928s4 body, suspension, brakes, interior, etc...
And then put in an American drivetrain, with extreme power levels,
and do a really wild body kit on it. It would not be a 928.
But it would have a lot of the benefits of the 928. If I could
keep the weight equalized, and keep the suspension geometry intact,
I think it would still be very comfortable, and very well-mannered
when it comes to handling. And the GTS brakes are more than adequate.
It just seems like a better way to build a supercar, than to build a tubeframe
from scratch, and build suspension and interior from scratch.
But if you want this supercar to have 800 horsepower, it seems
like running an American v8 would be the cheapest way to do it.
Knowing full well that you will have to rebuild it from time to time.
I'm talking a whole different ballgame than people who just want
to boost their 928 by an extra 100 horsepower with a supercharger or a stroker.
If I'm going to dump 50K or 100K into a wild car, I want to have something extreme.
I would want something that could compete with those 1000 hp vipers and supras.
But being a 928 owner, I am not someone who likes to drive what everyone else drives.
So I I were to spend that kind of money on a supercar, I would want it to be something
that I built, not something anyone else can go buy at the exotic car dealership.
But in my quest for a supercar, when I have the funds, I will probably
choose to build a kit car from scratch. But the choice of powerplants,
when you are seeking 200+MPH, and extreme acceleration, is a big factor.
If you want a car with 600-800 horsepower, you need to pick the best
engine for the job. One that can get you to that power level without
spending 30-50K on the engine alone. If I wanted to get my 928
engine to the 600-800 horsepower range, I would not even be able
to do it. Because it has not been done yet. So it would be trial
and error, and all custom systems. Whereas if I bought an
American engine, like a Twin Turbo from Gale Banks, I would
already be at that level, with proven techniques. I am not
saying any of these engines will last 200K miles. I am just
saying if you want an *extreme* car, I think the 928 is
potentially a pretty deep money pit. But if I was going
to build a "supercar" from scratch, I think I might very
well start with a 928s4 body, suspension, brakes, interior, etc...
And then put in an American drivetrain, with extreme power levels,
and do a really wild body kit on it. It would not be a 928.
But it would have a lot of the benefits of the 928. If I could
keep the weight equalized, and keep the suspension geometry intact,
I think it would still be very comfortable, and very well-mannered
when it comes to handling. And the GTS brakes are more than adequate.
It just seems like a better way to build a supercar, than to build a tubeframe
from scratch, and build suspension and interior from scratch.
But if you want this supercar to have 800 horsepower, it seems
like running an American v8 would be the cheapest way to do it.
Knowing full well that you will have to rebuild it from time to time.
I'm talking a whole different ballgame than people who just want
to boost their 928 by an extra 100 horsepower with a supercharger or a stroker.
If I'm going to dump 50K or 100K into a wild car, I want to have something extreme.
I would want something that could compete with those 1000 hp vipers and supras.
But being a 928 owner, I am not someone who likes to drive what everyone else drives.
So I I were to spend that kind of money on a supercar, I would want it to be something
that I built, not something anyone else can go buy at the exotic car dealership.
12-09-2004, 10:46 PM
#48
Drifting
Hey Keith......
The engine design of common american engines (steel cylinder walls, flexible main caps, etc.) do wear more than the 928's designs. I am quite certain that the metal particulate in the oil is greater due to the quantity of sacrificed metal which leads to greater ring, cylinder wall and bearing wear. A properly maintained american engine can go 278k miles but not without great care. Would you take your truck out to a dragstrip and flog it right now? My 86.5' engine has over 160k miles and I do hit redline daily without fear. (actually right now it is with fear, I have my snow tires on, handles like ****!)
A properly built performance engine is going to cost a considerable amount regardless of origion. What I'm trying to say is don't bitch about $20k strokers when a comparable chev is not nearly as streetable, clean running or will last as long. The higher performance you get out of an engine, the more stresses you subject it to. In a 928 stroker you are taking a 300k mile engine and reducing it to a 100k engine. What happens when you take a 100k engine to start with? I have made american engines last considerable amounts of time but not in a performance application. Cast iron cylinder walls are not even close to the best but they are cheap! Haven't you ever wondered why american vehicles suggest 3k oil changes and Porsche suggested 15k mile? It's not all from added capacity.
If I owned a Chevrolet shop, I might be convinced to put a sbc in my 79' 928 track car but it's a Porsche shop and I just couldn't look at myself in the mirror or at my customers if I didn't run a Porsche engine. In a pure racing application where an engine will not see many miles a year, the sbc may be the way to go. It's not going to put down the numbers a stroked 928 engine will for the amount of miles that a stroked 928 will. If it does, expect it to cost about as much as a stroked 928 engine! As far as finding parts around the corner, you might be suprised as to how specialized high end sbc parts are. They ain't gonna' be at NAPA.........
BTW, today's crate engines from Chevrolet are not as powerful as you may think. Straight from the same Summmit book.........
ZZ4=355 crank hp (301 rwhp)
Fast burn 350=385 crank hp (327 rwhp)
350HO=330 crank hp (280 rwhp)
All the above rwhp numbers are for a manual transmission with an optimistic 15% parasitic loss. These are considerably better than Porsche horsepower numbers?
Dave
The engine design of common american engines (steel cylinder walls, flexible main caps, etc.) do wear more than the 928's designs. I am quite certain that the metal particulate in the oil is greater due to the quantity of sacrificed metal which leads to greater ring, cylinder wall and bearing wear. A properly maintained american engine can go 278k miles but not without great care. Would you take your truck out to a dragstrip and flog it right now? My 86.5' engine has over 160k miles and I do hit redline daily without fear. (actually right now it is with fear, I have my snow tires on, handles like ****!)
A properly built performance engine is going to cost a considerable amount regardless of origion. What I'm trying to say is don't bitch about $20k strokers when a comparable chev is not nearly as streetable, clean running or will last as long. The higher performance you get out of an engine, the more stresses you subject it to. In a 928 stroker you are taking a 300k mile engine and reducing it to a 100k engine. What happens when you take a 100k engine to start with? I have made american engines last considerable amounts of time but not in a performance application. Cast iron cylinder walls are not even close to the best but they are cheap! Haven't you ever wondered why american vehicles suggest 3k oil changes and Porsche suggested 15k mile? It's not all from added capacity.
If I owned a Chevrolet shop, I might be convinced to put a sbc in my 79' 928 track car but it's a Porsche shop and I just couldn't look at myself in the mirror or at my customers if I didn't run a Porsche engine. In a pure racing application where an engine will not see many miles a year, the sbc may be the way to go. It's not going to put down the numbers a stroked 928 engine will for the amount of miles that a stroked 928 will. If it does, expect it to cost about as much as a stroked 928 engine! As far as finding parts around the corner, you might be suprised as to how specialized high end sbc parts are. They ain't gonna' be at NAPA.........
BTW, today's crate engines from Chevrolet are not as powerful as you may think. Straight from the same Summmit book.........
ZZ4=355 crank hp (301 rwhp)
Fast burn 350=385 crank hp (327 rwhp)
350HO=330 crank hp (280 rwhp)
All the above rwhp numbers are for a manual transmission with an optimistic 15% parasitic loss. These are considerably better than Porsche horsepower numbers?
Dave
12-09-2004, 10:50 PM
#49
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Gale Banks is who I was trying to think of! Now THAT would be a guy to take a 928 to and have him come up with something.
I think we are bending this topic way off track at this point. I support John (and everyone else) in their efforts to feasably make this or any other higher HP project a success. Just over a year or so ago, SC'ing was still close to a myth. Though it is not a bolt on turn key situation yet, it is closer than it ever was and the proof is out there. Who knows, maybe someone will actually crack the code, but I think it's going to take a bit O' cash....which was my initial point.
Dave, no arguement there. And yes... I have that same issue with sticking anything but a Porsche engine in my Porsche, but there is that curiosity factor.
Godspeed 928 innovators!
I think we are bending this topic way off track at this point. I support John (and everyone else) in their efforts to feasably make this or any other higher HP project a success. Just over a year or so ago, SC'ing was still close to a myth. Though it is not a bolt on turn key situation yet, it is closer than it ever was and the proof is out there. Who knows, maybe someone will actually crack the code, but I think it's going to take a bit O' cash....which was my initial point.
Dave, no arguement there. And yes... I have that same issue with sticking anything but a Porsche engine in my Porsche, but there is that curiosity factor.
Godspeed 928 innovators!
12-09-2004, 11:23 PM
#50
Drifting
My supercar would be GT40 based with a short lived big inch small block ford/twin turbo's and excess of 1300hp. Nothing but heim joints in the active suspension and big enough brakes to slow the earth's rotation. A well balanced mid engined car is a absolute joy to drive. The high speed handling capabilities of the 928 are what drew me to it. It can run with the best without much work. I guess it all depends what you want the toy to do. Comparing sbc's to the 928 engine fits in that catagory, not the same basket of fruit.
Hmmmm, maybe a Cobra replica with a 900hp all aluminum stroked tunnel port FE and nascar suspension? 2200# would give you one hell of a power to weight ratio...........
Dave
Hmmmm, maybe a Cobra replica with a 900hp all aluminum stroked tunnel port FE and nascar suspension? 2200# would give you one hell of a power to weight ratio...........
Dave
12-09-2004, 11:43 PM
#51
Administrator - "Tyson"
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That seams like overkill for a GT40 when you consider an original can hit 200+ mph with a 60's designed N/A V-8. Would be a log of fun to drive!
12-09-2004, 11:51 PM
#52
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I saw a special on the Cobra where Carrol Shelby openly admits that with todays technology, the kit Cobras are far more superior than his original.
Now, for a supercar Ford GT...just add all wheel drive to that and I think we have a player Dave. Right now it seems like the latest version of the Saleen is a car to be reckoned with!...and I'm a Euro car fan.
Now, for a supercar Ford GT...just add all wheel drive to that and I think we have a player Dave. Right now it seems like the latest version of the Saleen is a car to be reckoned with!...and I'm a Euro car fan.
12-10-2004, 12:18 AM
#53
Drifting
Just south of us is where the Kirkham Cobra is manufactured. The most exact copy to date, every part on it can replace an origional. It even has the bad handling problems of the origional big block cars! Really fantastic shop, check them out on their website sometime. Talk about a kid in a candy store...........
http://www.kirkhammotorsports.com/home.cfm
As far as the GT40 being overkill, that would be the name of the car. I would hope to hit 200mph before I even hit 6th gear. I would like 240/250mph capability, I do live down here near Bonneville Salt Flats. I never even considered all wheel drive......back to the drawing board. Now where did I leave that lottery ticket?
Dave
http://www.kirkhammotorsports.com/home.cfm
As far as the GT40 being overkill, that would be the name of the car. I would hope to hit 200mph before I even hit 6th gear. I would like 240/250mph capability, I do live down here near Bonneville Salt Flats. I never even considered all wheel drive......back to the drawing board. Now where did I leave that lottery ticket?
Dave
12-10-2004, 01:27 AM
#54
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BC,
My understanding is that a twin turbo 928 engine has been taken to the 1000+ HP range, but not in a 928 chassis, for a supercar project here in Houston.
My understanding is that a twin turbo 928 engine has been taken to the 1000+ HP range, but not in a 928 chassis, for a supercar project here in Houston.
Originally Posted by bcdavis
If I wanted to get my 928
engine to the 600-800 horsepower range, I would not even be able
to do it. Because it has not been done yet.
engine to the 600-800 horsepower range, I would not even be able
to do it. Because it has not been done yet.
12-10-2004, 05:49 AM
#58
Race Director
Tony
Damm thats a big $$$ custom set up, looks like a small block (302 or 351)....with size of those turbos/intercooler I'm guessing around 1500hp? Probably over 20+psi.
It cost money to go fast, no matter a chevy or a porsche....Lingenfelter charges about $50K for its 7.0L twin turbo 800 hp Z06 package....I'm sure a top tuner could build a 928 TT for around the same price with similar power levels...just gotta win the lottery
Damm thats a big $$$ custom set up, looks like a small block (302 or 351)....with size of those turbos/intercooler I'm guessing around 1500hp? Probably over 20+psi.
It cost money to go fast, no matter a chevy or a porsche....Lingenfelter charges about $50K for its 7.0L twin turbo 800 hp Z06 package....I'm sure a top tuner could build a 928 TT for around the same price with similar power levels...just gotta win the lottery
12-10-2004, 09:47 AM
#59
Three Wheelin'
Wow, those are some beautiful turbo headers! 
Interesting to note though, they built the intercooler 'wrong'. Using the same dimensions and orientation, instead of having the core run East-West, they should have had the core running North-South.
Interesting to note though, they built the intercooler 'wrong'. Using the same dimensions and orientation, instead of having the core run East-West, they should have had the core running North-South.
12-10-2004, 10:33 AM
#60
928 Collector
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by Ketchmi
Hey Keith......
The engine design of common american engines (steel cylinder walls, flexible main caps, etc.) do wear more than the 928's designs. I am quite certain that the metal particulate in the oil is greater due to the quantity of sacrificed metal which leads to greater ring, cylinder wall and bearing wear. A properly maintained american engine can go 278k miles but not without great care. Would you take your truck out to a dragstrip and flog it right now? My 86.5' engine has over 160k miles and I do hit redline daily without fear. (actually right now it is with fear, I have my snow tires on, handles like ****!)
A properly built performance engine is going to cost a considerable amount regardless of origion. What I'm trying to say is don't bitch about $20k strokers when a comparable chev is not nearly as streetable, clean running or will last as long. The higher performance you get out of an engine, the more stresses you subject it to. In a 928 stroker you are taking a 300k mile engine and reducing it to a 100k engine. What happens when you take a 100k engine to start with? I have made american engines last considerable amounts of time but not in a performance application. Cast iron cylinder walls are not even close to the best but they are cheap! Haven't you ever wondered why american vehicles suggest 3k oil changes and Porsche suggested 15k mile? It's not all from added capacity.
If I owned a Chevrolet shop, I might be convinced to put a sbc in my 79' 928 track car but it's a Porsche shop and I just couldn't look at myself in the mirror or at my customers if I didn't run a Porsche engine. In a pure racing application where an engine will not see many miles a year, the sbc may be the way to go. It's not going to put down the numbers a stroked 928 engine will for the amount of miles that a stroked 928 will. If it does, expect it to cost about as much as a stroked 928 engine! As far as finding parts around the corner, you might be suprised as to how specialized high end sbc parts are. They ain't gonna' be at NAPA.........
BTW, today's crate engines from Chevrolet are not as powerful as you may think. Straight from the same Summmit book.........
ZZ4=355 crank hp (301 rwhp)
Fast burn 350=385 crank hp (327 rwhp)
350HO=330 crank hp (280 rwhp)
All the above rwhp numbers are for a manual transmission with an optimistic 15% parasitic loss. These are considerably better than Porsche horsepower numbers?
Dave
The engine design of common american engines (steel cylinder walls, flexible main caps, etc.) do wear more than the 928's designs. I am quite certain that the metal particulate in the oil is greater due to the quantity of sacrificed metal which leads to greater ring, cylinder wall and bearing wear. A properly maintained american engine can go 278k miles but not without great care. Would you take your truck out to a dragstrip and flog it right now? My 86.5' engine has over 160k miles and I do hit redline daily without fear. (actually right now it is with fear, I have my snow tires on, handles like ****!)
A properly built performance engine is going to cost a considerable amount regardless of origion. What I'm trying to say is don't bitch about $20k strokers when a comparable chev is not nearly as streetable, clean running or will last as long. The higher performance you get out of an engine, the more stresses you subject it to. In a 928 stroker you are taking a 300k mile engine and reducing it to a 100k engine. What happens when you take a 100k engine to start with? I have made american engines last considerable amounts of time but not in a performance application. Cast iron cylinder walls are not even close to the best but they are cheap! Haven't you ever wondered why american vehicles suggest 3k oil changes and Porsche suggested 15k mile? It's not all from added capacity.
If I owned a Chevrolet shop, I might be convinced to put a sbc in my 79' 928 track car but it's a Porsche shop and I just couldn't look at myself in the mirror or at my customers if I didn't run a Porsche engine. In a pure racing application where an engine will not see many miles a year, the sbc may be the way to go. It's not going to put down the numbers a stroked 928 engine will for the amount of miles that a stroked 928 will. If it does, expect it to cost about as much as a stroked 928 engine! As far as finding parts around the corner, you might be suprised as to how specialized high end sbc parts are. They ain't gonna' be at NAPA.........
BTW, today's crate engines from Chevrolet are not as powerful as you may think. Straight from the same Summmit book.........
ZZ4=355 crank hp (301 rwhp)
Fast burn 350=385 crank hp (327 rwhp)
350HO=330 crank hp (280 rwhp)
All the above rwhp numbers are for a manual transmission with an optimistic 15% parasitic loss. These are considerably better than Porsche horsepower numbers?
Dave