16v Supercharger kit demo at Wichita 928 OC
07-15-2004, 01:50 AM
#31
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carl,
i was wondering about the distance from the sc pulley to the radiator because i already have the electric fan set up. that has a rating of 2780 cfm pull. If your kit fits with my fans ill go for it
Lou
83 928 5speed
i was wondering about the distance from the sc pulley to the radiator because i already have the electric fan set up. that has a rating of 2780 cfm pull. If your kit fits with my fans ill go for it
Lou
83 928 5speed
07-15-2004, 04:45 PM
#32
Burning Brakes
Carl,
I may have missed this, but will your kit work on the '83 US cars or just in the CIS-based systems? The web site seems to be CIS specific. If your system will work on the '83, can you give me some more details about it -- like AFM location, need for RFPR, bigger injectors, etc.?
Thanks!
Rick
I may have missed this, but will your kit work on the '83 US cars or just in the CIS-based systems? The web site seems to be CIS specific. If your system will work on the '83, can you give me some more details about it -- like AFM location, need for RFPR, bigger injectors, etc.?
Thanks!
Rick
07-15-2004, 05:12 PM
#33
Developer
Thread Starter
OneBad928s - I think it is about 1.5" from front of pulley to radiator - I know our muffin fans are pretty slim and I cannot put one there ... but we do supply you with the fans that DO fit right in the kit! :-)
RJTW - I have to kill my webmaster cuz the website still says "CIS only"
We have offered kits for the L-Jet 16v cars now for about 6 months. The AFM does not have to be moved or modified - we have an adapter for it.
As of this writng, we are only comfortable putting 6 psi of boost thru the L-Jet (our stage 1 kit). That should be good for 50 to 60 HP. But, with fuel system mods - it could go to 9 psi also - we just do not offer that at this time.
RJTW - I have to kill my webmaster cuz the website still says "CIS only"
We have offered kits for the L-Jet 16v cars now for about 6 months. The AFM does not have to be moved or modified - we have an adapter for it.
As of this writng, we are only comfortable putting 6 psi of boost thru the L-Jet (our stage 1 kit). That should be good for 50 to 60 HP. But, with fuel system mods - it could go to 9 psi also - we just do not offer that at this time.
07-15-2004, 07:25 PM
#34
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Very cool info Carl. It's nice to see efforts over the 16v cars.
I am not sure if this question has come up yet, but it looks as though you have been dealing with stock CIS engines. I have an 82 L jet that was just upgraded with Euro Intakes, Euro Intake Distribuor and Euro Throttle body. Aside from RRFPR's I changed out the exhaust system to a catless Borla with MSDS headers.
Haven't done a dyno yet, but I know right now my power is in the upper rpm range. Once the dyno is done, I can fine tune this thing.
What are you feelings on adapting your SC kit to my recent mods? Do you foresee any negative issues. I expect the kit would give me my low end back. Which kit would suffuce?
Thanks
I am not sure if this question has come up yet, but it looks as though you have been dealing with stock CIS engines. I have an 82 L jet that was just upgraded with Euro Intakes, Euro Intake Distribuor and Euro Throttle body. Aside from RRFPR's I changed out the exhaust system to a catless Borla with MSDS headers.
Haven't done a dyno yet, but I know right now my power is in the upper rpm range. Once the dyno is done, I can fine tune this thing.
What are you feelings on adapting your SC kit to my recent mods? Do you foresee any negative issues. I expect the kit would give me my low end back. Which kit would suffuce?
Thanks
07-16-2004, 10:58 AM
#36
Developer
Thread Starter
928NtSlow -
Your L-jet posses some interesting issues - but none that we cannot overcome. We have a 6 psi kit for your L-Jet now.
The CIS systems measure air VOLUME using differential pressure on both sides of that flapper in the CIS "shoe" The L-Jet or "barndoor" system measures air FLOW and tries to calculate mass from that with the extra input of a couple of temp sensors. Later, the LH models measure air MASS, using the "hot wire" technology that is most technologically current.
What most folks do not know is: on your L-Jet system, the "barn door" is wide open at 3500 RPM (Stock) and is no longer in the equation at all, anyway.
We have found that the L-Jet will fuel up to 6 psi of boost with no mods. But it needs help to go any higher.
John Kuhn and the twin-turbo L-Jet install has a ton of trial-and-error work here to learn from. We now know, for example, that the 914 fuel injector is the same impedence as the p28, but flows a higher volume... so that is a nice little bolt-in-swap to get a higher volume injector for your L-Jet 928 right off the shelf.
Installing a higher volume injector will increase the fuel flow across ALL ranges, tho - and while helping the top end fuel - they may screw up the idle a tad. Usually it can be tuned in.
Then we can hit the L-Jet with a good FMU or EMU, and dial her in!
Your L-jet posses some interesting issues - but none that we cannot overcome. We have a 6 psi kit for your L-Jet now.
The CIS systems measure air VOLUME using differential pressure on both sides of that flapper in the CIS "shoe" The L-Jet or "barndoor" system measures air FLOW and tries to calculate mass from that with the extra input of a couple of temp sensors. Later, the LH models measure air MASS, using the "hot wire" technology that is most technologically current.
What most folks do not know is: on your L-Jet system, the "barn door" is wide open at 3500 RPM (Stock) and is no longer in the equation at all, anyway.
We have found that the L-Jet will fuel up to 6 psi of boost with no mods. But it needs help to go any higher.
John Kuhn and the twin-turbo L-Jet install has a ton of trial-and-error work here to learn from. We now know, for example, that the 914 fuel injector is the same impedence as the p28, but flows a higher volume... so that is a nice little bolt-in-swap to get a higher volume injector for your L-Jet 928 right off the shelf.
Installing a higher volume injector will increase the fuel flow across ALL ranges, tho - and while helping the top end fuel - they may screw up the idle a tad. Usually it can be tuned in.
Then we can hit the L-Jet with a good FMU or EMU, and dial her in!
07-16-2004, 04:04 PM
#37
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So you are saying that the stage 1 kit will just bolt in without any mods, but for hgher than 6psi there would need to be an injector swap? Are there any L-jet cars out there that already have this kit?
Rich A. mentioned to me that if I go the SC route, it might be a good idea to go back to the US intake system, removing the recent Euro mods. What do you think about this? Or, what can I expect with the Euro mods?
Rich A. mentioned to me that if I go the SC route, it might be a good idea to go back to the US intake system, removing the recent Euro mods. What do you think about this? Or, what can I expect with the Euro mods?
07-16-2004, 04:14 PM
#38
Developer
Thread Starter
Yes, our Stage 1 kit will bolt on to an L-Jet and will not require any fuel system mods.
As to your Euro mods - did you do
> euro heads
> euro cams
> euro throttle body
> euro intakes
...some of these or all of these?
As to your Euro mods - did you do
> euro heads
> euro cams
> euro throttle body
> euro intakes
...some of these or all of these?
07-16-2004, 04:25 PM
#39
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As listed in my first post yesterday...
... have an 82 L jet that was just upgraded with Euro Intakes, Euro Intake Distribuor and Euro Throttle body. Aside from RRFPR's I changed out the exhaust system to a catless Borla with MSDS headers.....
No heads or cams changed
... have an 82 L jet that was just upgraded with Euro Intakes, Euro Intake Distribuor and Euro Throttle body. Aside from RRFPR's I changed out the exhaust system to a catless Borla with MSDS headers.....
No heads or cams changed
07-16-2004, 05:12 PM
#40
Developer
Thread Starter
From my experience, I agree with your friend that you might as well remove those hard-to-find euro items when you install the SC kit. I do not beleive you will receive any benefit leaving them in.
The CW (Conventiaonal Wisdow) on NA (Naturally Aspirated) cars is all about larger throttle bodies, valves, plenums, exhaust. Help the engine breath. But on SC cars, it has been shown that opening up the runners too much actually hurts - you loose pressure and you do not gain any CFM.
I recall my first SC install on a stock 78 - and the dyno numbers I posted.
Then, I stumbled into a great set of freshly rebuilt Euro heads and cams from Mark A and I snapped them up. Installed them - ran back to the dyno - no difference in HP or torque - and actaually the "snap" and throttle response was worse. It was much more responsive with the original heads and cams.
This just proved what I had always been told.... that a blower makes up for a lot of restrictions throughout the motor in all places.
Maybe you can sell those euro parts to help fund your SC project!
The CW (Conventiaonal Wisdow) on NA (Naturally Aspirated) cars is all about larger throttle bodies, valves, plenums, exhaust. Help the engine breath. But on SC cars, it has been shown that opening up the runners too much actually hurts - you loose pressure and you do not gain any CFM.
I recall my first SC install on a stock 78 - and the dyno numbers I posted.
Then, I stumbled into a great set of freshly rebuilt Euro heads and cams from Mark A and I snapped them up. Installed them - ran back to the dyno - no difference in HP or torque - and actaually the "snap" and throttle response was worse. It was much more responsive with the original heads and cams.
This just proved what I had always been told.... that a blower makes up for a lot of restrictions throughout the motor in all places.
Maybe you can sell those euro parts to help fund your SC project!
07-16-2004, 07:36 PM
#42
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LOL, that's exactly what Rich said!
I just finished this upgrade too! I still have the old intakes and all...guess I can go get those powder coated too.
I have a nitrous kit for the set up, but maybe I should just sell that with the Euro stuff and fund the SC project.
HA HA...this is gonna take some thinking.
Thanks for the info Carl.
I just finished this upgrade too! I still have the old intakes and all...guess I can go get those powder coated too.
I have a nitrous kit for the set up, but maybe I should just sell that with the Euro stuff and fund the SC project.
HA HA...this is gonna take some thinking.
Thanks for the info Carl.
07-17-2004, 12:21 AM
#44
Developer
Thread Starter
928NTslow -
No Dyno charts on a L-Jet install yet - nobody has bought one yet.
We did our development of the brackets and L-Jet tubing on a L-Jet
motor out on an engine stand where we could work all around it easilly.
Made 10 of everything.... but have not had a L-Jet "test mule" drive in yet so we could install it and dyno it. (Keep in mind it is all the same for us accept the attachment to the rear of the intake manifold.)
What do we expect it to do? We have many dyno runs and a lot of dyno experience on 8.5 to 1 motors running various boost levels on the 928 and
9.0 to 1 boosted on our 944 turbo. We know how boost effects CIS, L-Jet, and LH Jet systems.
We like to underpromise and overdeliver - you can go to our website and see that we advertise the 6 psi Stage 1 kit to provide a "30% to 40% increase in HP" but - at the Wichita 928 OCIC, for example, the reality on that car/motor was taking it from 219HP stock to 300 HP, or a gain of 81 HP - 40% on the nut.
I would expect your gain to be a little higher because of your slightly higher compression ratio.
Make you a deal.... because you'll be the first L-Jet install, I'll cut you a discount in trade for your Dyno time - you have to Dyno it and give me the charts to publish to get the discount.
Because of your association with the SoCal club, you'd be an excellent and credible testimonial to have for the L-Jet install. Howz that sound?
No Dyno charts on a L-Jet install yet - nobody has bought one yet.
We did our development of the brackets and L-Jet tubing on a L-Jet
motor out on an engine stand where we could work all around it easilly.
Made 10 of everything.... but have not had a L-Jet "test mule" drive in yet so we could install it and dyno it. (Keep in mind it is all the same for us accept the attachment to the rear of the intake manifold.)
What do we expect it to do? We have many dyno runs and a lot of dyno experience on 8.5 to 1 motors running various boost levels on the 928 and
9.0 to 1 boosted on our 944 turbo. We know how boost effects CIS, L-Jet, and LH Jet systems.
We like to underpromise and overdeliver - you can go to our website and see that we advertise the 6 psi Stage 1 kit to provide a "30% to 40% increase in HP" but - at the Wichita 928 OCIC, for example, the reality on that car/motor was taking it from 219HP stock to 300 HP, or a gain of 81 HP - 40% on the nut.
I would expect your gain to be a little higher because of your slightly higher compression ratio.
Make you a deal.... because you'll be the first L-Jet install, I'll cut you a discount in trade for your Dyno time - you have to Dyno it and give me the charts to publish to get the discount.
Because of your association with the SoCal club, you'd be an excellent and credible testimonial to have for the L-Jet install. Howz that sound?
07-17-2004, 12:37 AM
#45
Nordschleife Master
Carl, I know I don't need to tell you to be careful. After all, you've done the superchargeing!
Where did you get your information that the L-jet AFM was maxed out at around 3,500 rpm?
My experence with experements on the AFM, as well as the information in a couple of Bosch published hand books just don't agree. I too was told this, I forget by who, and tryed to prove it one way or the other. So far, the proof is on the side that the AFMs reading does change.
Unless the 944 was set up with a AFM on the pressureized side of the intake, you could be getting into troubled waters really quick.
However, I sincerly hope that all my fears are based on fantasy, and everything goes more smoothly than I can dream.
One last thing. Would it be too much to ask for a wide band mapping of the a/f ratio dureing the dyno run of your car? Thank you. The more information, the more belivers, right?
Where did you get your information that the L-jet AFM was maxed out at around 3,500 rpm?
My experence with experements on the AFM, as well as the information in a couple of Bosch published hand books just don't agree. I too was told this, I forget by who, and tryed to prove it one way or the other. So far, the proof is on the side that the AFMs reading does change.
Unless the 944 was set up with a AFM on the pressureized side of the intake, you could be getting into troubled waters really quick.
However, I sincerly hope that all my fears are based on fantasy, and everything goes more smoothly than I can dream.
One last thing. Would it be too much to ask for a wide band mapping of the a/f ratio dureing the dyno run of your car? Thank you. The more information, the more belivers, right?