PK68

I agree with your opinion but with certain caveats. The R107 was hugely successful; this mainly due to the phenomenal success of the roadster version in the States, much less so in Europe. The XJ-S was a lovely piece of engineering, sold at a 20% lower price than the 928 [and of course it showed in the abysmal build quality]. I seem to recall that they were seriously thinking of axing it but was it was instead saved by the surge in the US sales. Again this was mostly due to an attractive price and better build quality in the 80s [and a weak pound back then, if I correctly recall].

However, as an engineering feat from a small car maker [Porsche was making less than 20 thousand cars when the 928 was developed] I believe that the 928 remains unique. The design remains fresh to this date, it initially weighed maybe 750 lbs less than a XJ-S [offering more space!] and the various novel engineering solutions still attract admiration. Pity, as you rightly say, Porsche's misreading of the market.



This. I bought my S2 a year ago. Car had been standing for 10 months and was given a quick service from a Porsche expert in Heilbronn. Travelled 1000 miles in 2 days at 35 celsius, frequently cruising at 200-240 kms in the autobahn. Car [37 years old by then] did not miss a bit. People unaccustomed to the model frequently marvel at the total absence of squeaks and rattles when I am giving them a ride.

rufrob

The lifelong 928 lover in me wholeheartedly agrees however comparing it to an Aston or 512 is a bit of a stretch IMHO. Those cars are not daily drivers by any stretch of the imagination. Parts supply, maintenance easy and cost cost cost!! put them in a totally different category of car. The 928 like all Porsches are every man cars, diy, race on Saturday, church on Sunday work on Monday.
Anyone waited for a 512 to warm up in below zero C temperatures? That's right. No one drivers a Ferrari in the winter.
The point about the 996 is another rub for me. I have a 996tt tippy. It's as roomy as the 928 sans the trunk, but way more powerful and capable with 4wd and it holds its value better. And for those living in countries which tax based on engine size the 928 is at a disadvantage.
If pressed for space sorry 928 I'll have to keep the 996.
That said if I had stupid money I would purposely build a 928 to out run the AMG GT.

StratfordShark

Fine and thoughtful article, thank you.

C531XHO

[QUOTE=Darklands;19593748]But the 928 hold the 24 hour speed record in Nardo till the year 2000?.
So it was the only reliable supercar of the 80ies. That's the difference, you can drive the 928 like it was intended back in the days, as a true Autobahn interceptor.
Show me another car who is 40 years old that is capable to drive from Hambug to Munich at full trottle.
....a 944

icsamerica

OFF TOPIC ALERT!

I never found it necessary to cycle the pump using the Audi "test rig". I do have a vag-com and did so many times but it never seem to matter. That said, I never had to replace the ABS pump either. I'm sure it would be faster to use the 'test rig' (VAG-COM) but you could just crack the lines at the ABS pump and let it gravity bleed, messy but would work IF you are replacing a MC or ABS pump Module. For a regular bake job or caliper swap, it's not necessary. All that said, the S8 has spongy brakes compared to a 928. Every D2 A8 or S8 (many) I ever had was like this, when I worked at Audi back in the 2000's owners would often complain about this and the service manager would often be frustrated. Even when I upgraded my S8 brakes to RS6 calieprs they were still kinda spongy. When I upgraded my D2 A8 to D3 calipers, better, but still spongy. On the D2 the firewall flexes a lot so many owners install a "Brake Block' between the strut tower brace and master cylinder. That helps noticeably.

icsamerica

[QUOTE=C531XHO;19594106]928 is reliable but not a super car. They just made too many for it to be a Super car, It's just too practical to be a super car and the 928 lacks any 'over the top' features for it to be considered a super car. The S4 does get close with the Wing though. That's just how I see it. For me with the changes I've made (mostly exhaust sound and suspension) the 928 is a super car and that's the point and why I, and perhaps, we love the 928. Porsche's first super car was the 959 which is where all the 928's development dollars went. That seems to have paid off for the Brand. I remember when the 959 came out at the time. It seemed odd to me that Porsche was moving forward with their old design, but that's what they did and it worked.

As a Mental exercise what if Porsche has tried to turn the 928 into the 959 what would that have looked like? TwinTurbo V8? Bigger Wing? Aero? Exotic materials?

That said I think if the Author re-titled the his essay, 'Why the 928 is a Super Car to me' then it would make more sense. To suggest the collective deliberations of the entire world car community have gotten it all wrong is hard for me to appreciate.

icsamerica

dupe

Kiln_Red

The first time I sat inside a 928 was 1992. Car was an Oxford White '86.5 auto. The 928 was never as gaudy as other 'super cars', but recall that Porsche really is sort of primitive on the whole. Everything is designed & engineered such that it is generally supposed to be purposeful, but I do suppose we usually think of less refined cars when the first number of super cars do enter our minds.

If an F40 is where you draw the line, then the 928 is not a super car. If a 308 is, then so too is a 928.

Circling back, there was nothing else around in 1992 that caught my eye as immediately. I could have picked out that '86.5 in a 1/4-mile line of cars stopped in traffic. Sure, it was more subtle than other European cars. But, subtle or not, the design elegance smacked you in the face.. in a very super car way.

60k cars over 18 model years is still a pretty thin herd, too. I don't know if it was as much a marketing issue as it was a sticker price issue. When your choice is a new car or a family home, the pool of prospective buyers gets small fast.

More in response to the quoted text, was your first impression of the 928 not completely recalibrated after your first drive? First time passengers are, to this day, stunned after their first tours.

icsamerica

F40 is a Super Car, 308 and it's variants are GT's like the 928.

My First drive of the 928 was disappointing. I was young, had a few bucks and the selling dealer wouldn't let me test drive it before I bought it. It was also the late mid 90's I had a Z51 C4 Corvette and a BMW E32 (sport short wheel base). I had hoped the 928 would have the refinement and solidity of the E32 with the handling and the performance of the C4. The C4 was brutal, the E32 was a bit pokey. I was young, didn't know any better so I was very disappointed with the 928 That's when I built my first stoker, added my first set of Bilstreins and Weiltmeister Springs. That was the beginning of a 30 year quest to get the 928 to be what I wanted it to be. It's been fun! I always loved wedge Cars, Lotus Esprit, Farrari GT4 so the 928 is an exotic to me. Shorty E32 is my favorite car of all time, BTW

8cyl

[QUOTE=icsamerica;19594479]I appreciate your against the grain opinion because anyone who actually owns one of these cars has every right to be critical or point out it's weaknesses in my book. What do you think of the 911 Turbo from the same period? Most call it a supercar merely for the performance factor whereas I'm with you; the first Porsche supercar was the 959. The Turbo never looked like a supercar to me either despite looking fantastic. In fact, the 928 looks more traditionally supercar in design.

8cyl

This falls into the Porsche philosophy that they have always had for their road cars. A Porsche has to have clever and leading engineering or at least great handling, and to be sporty but also economical and practical. It's their ethos. Whereas if you look at a comparable marque like Ferrari back in the past they just slapped an engine in a (beautifully coachbuilder designed) tub. The Porsche passion is engineering excellence and there is a reason most car nuts would pick the F40 over the 959, but then when you think about the yardstick by which a supercar is usually measured and defined is it really fair to marques like Porsche? I mean obviously the 959 is a supercar, but it's a soft thing and it takes a back seat in most people's minds behind the Italian exotica. The 959's party tricks are practically numbers on paper.

Petza914

Porsche has made 3 supercars - the 959, the Carrera GT, and the 918 Spyder. Everything else is either a racecar or a regular Porsche. Don't get me wrong, regular Porsches are awesome and why we all have them, but they're not supercars.


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Darklands

@. ICS,
thank you, we can‘t bring the trapped air out of the brake system. Brake is hard if the engine is of, after starting the pedal is weak.

My definition of the 928 in contrast to the car market of the 80 s is the design changes Porsche did. Sure a C4 is a fast car but the build quality of the drivers department is a mess.
Last month Jochen had a C5 Z06 in his shop, after sitting 5 min in it I know I can‘t live with that interior build quality.

Put a 928 on a lift and look at the suspension, it‘s a class of it‘s own. It‘s the only car I know who has the build quality to survive with nearly intact body the years.
Safety, the Italian kit cars of the time with thumb thick tubes.

Look at Mercedes of the time, conservative cars , BMW outranked the W126 with the new 7, Mercedes build as an answer the „tank“, the W140 with pilons in the back for parking, not an electronically solution.

Maybe super is the wrong word for the 928, advangarde of the time hits it better. Out of time but for the public it was a little bit too much.

928cs

The 356 Carrera was the first Porsche supercar. It's a racing engine into a non racing car.
A 356 Carrera 2 is a hell of a car

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icsamerica

Certainly AvantGuard, I like that, consistent with the Pasha and other early marketing efforts. Perhaps Porsche should have stuck with that, easy to say in hind site. Early on when Porsche embraced the quirky it worked, when they went femenine with the glamor and golfing mother they lost it!

OFF TOPIC ALERT
D2 stock brakes are mush. I'm not suprised. Compared to a 928 S4 the differance is stark even though they basically use the same caliper. When compared to most normal cars they're ok. I never really figured it out 100% and tinkered at the margins with all sorts of bleeding techniqes, braded flex lines, EBC pads and uprated calipers and caliper truing. Eventually I got them good enough by over braking the front axle to compensate using RS6 or D3 calipers. If you look at the tortured route of the brake lines as they decesend to the ABS pump on the left hand side you can see that the lines are large and bent is such a way that air can eaily get trapped. You can tap and unbend the lines slightly by hand in this area so the air will migrate more easily. I got the best results using a shop air powered vacuum bleeder while tapping the unbent lines. Check the wheel bearings for lash. Also check the caliper brakets for square and flatness, if it's an A8. I've checked many and they are usually something other than 90 degrees to the rotor. If its an S8 you need to check the mounting pads on the spindle and make sure they are true 90 and equi distant to the rotor. Same for the caliper. You can get tollerance stacking that results in the caliper not being true to the rotor. That lash is taken up by bending components and that creates the mush feel. One possible and quick indication is to check the old pads with a dial caliper and see if they were worn un evenly, this would be a good tell that that the rotor is not parrallel horizontially and perpendicular vertically. In this case you will have remachine and mill the pad surfaces, not easy. Get after it with a vacuum bleeder, dial calieper, square and feeler guages, the issue will present and then you can see if it's worth fixing. Over time the pads will bed in to take up the lash so the feel should improve in most cases.

The best D2 brakes I ever had were D3 fronts on a 2000 SWB A8. Mush prior to that upgrade. I did nothing else, just bolted on a mismatched set of ebay D3 front calipers with the D3 brakets form two diffrent suppliers along with the used pads right out of the shipping box, then a quick bleed to check fitment with the wheels. Immediatly better, after new pads, fresh TRW rotors and a 2nd bleed, Almost great brakes. The thing about using D3 brakes on D2 is you use the D3 caliper bracket which is most likely improved over the D2 with reguard to true. I sold that A8 with these upgraded brakes to a good friend and he LOVES the brakes and I get to drive it now and then. It's sad to say but they were better than my S8 with the RS6 brakes and vastly improved over stock S8 brakes too.

Caliper truing is something I learned with my efforts with old Jaguars. When they switched to 4 pot calipers in the late 70's they used shims of varying thinknesses to get the caliper in the right position against the rotor. Its possible to put shims on in such a way that the all three axis can be adjusted. It was covered in the service manual. I've seen single shims so thin they bend like paper. This was when drivng dynamics really mattered at Jag.