jserio

Eyal, Bernie, When racing is said or implied it does not necessarily mean neck and neck fighting for position it also implies travelling a road above the recommended speed limit. Don't even try to BS us and tell this group that everyone was doing the 25 mph posted speed limit. I do 25 out of my garage. Because the simple logistical fact is that if he had a blow out at 25 in a turn then he would not have ended up over the side unless he was right next to it. Especially going uphill where gravity alone would naturally slow down a ton and a half car from 25 or even 30 mph just by letting up on the pedal. No doubt I am not trying to raise a fuss here as I am not perfect. Mike going over the side of a mountain was the effect from ????????. While everone is lobbing their spit ***** did any learn anything from Mike's misfortune? Would be nice if he did not suffer for nothing.

Nicole

WOW!!! Great post!

Bernie

First Of All - Thanx Mark and Normy - Great responses and well put.

Joe!!!
Sorry but your post forces me to say ----- Oh Please, give me a break!

No, we were actually physically pushing our cars through the mountains. C'mon man!

Get off the self-righteous applebox you're standing on. We drive Porsche's for Christs sake! I think that says a little about my personality and probably the personalities of a lot of other people who post here. I am not out on Saturday night puttin' down slips with the ricers up in the orange groves but I sure as hell know where the accelerator is.

Sorry to vent Randy but it irritates me when people get this self-righteous crap going on. You must be one of those blue-haired 928 drivers that hog the fastlane and never look in your mirror! All the while telling himself that he is doing 55 and sees no reason to go any faster or get over!

Let ye who are without sin cast the first stone.

BTW - I never heard anyone ranting when Jim Baileys very brown 928 hammered it against a Corvette RIGHT in front of 928 International at the last Sharkfest? Where were all the upstanding drivers then. Why wasn't Jim outside slapping the wrists of that young man....LOL

Flame On Little Dudes..

Stan.Shaw@Excell.Net

Sorry, but I think you miss the point.
I drive fast, many do.
I drive on the track, including racing my 928, as others do.

I have never been on a "canyon run" but it sounds as though the experience is meant to simulate a driver's education day at the track. Unfortunately since it is done on the street, there are *many* safety implications that aren't found at the track.

Perhaps Mark K. who says he has been on a canyon run, can shed some insight here, as he has been on the track as well.

There is a big difference between driving fast, and driving reckless. What did the police report show in this case?

Jim_H

"Joe!!!
Sorry but your post forces me to say ----- Oh Please, give me a break!"

Bernie,

Maybe you need to give Joe a Break. Early on in this thread it was implied more than once that there was no "racing" going on. It seems if someone said he may have been a bit out of control the response was "do I have to say this again, there was no racing!"
In fairness there is probably more of a chance that he misjudged the corner or went in a bit hot than ......

Kaz

"Canyon run" is a catch all phrase. Sometimes, it's a drive with the left elbow out (or the gangsta lean to the right) enjoying the view. Sometimes it's taking the long way around to get to the beach rather than sit in PCH traffic. Sometimes if I get there early enough I push the car a little using my own judgement of course. No crossing the double yellow, no getting the car sideways, able to lift and slow the car quickly within a few feet etc etc.

I don't happen to think it was a blow out that caused him to go over. His car was recently upgraded to Stage 3 which gives it Porsche TT like horsepower with a great deal more lag than other aftermarket set ups for the Audi S4. He simply wasn't used to the new configuration of his car. He probably went to accelerate as he's used to under his old set up. Nothing happened, so he put more into it while approaching that turn and then the turbos spooled. He might've tried cranking more wheel into it hoping the quattro would bite, it didn't and over it went.

In anycase, of all the wheeled vehicles that take to the canyons on any given weekend about the only people I can gaurantee are consistently taking it easy are Harley Davidson/Chopper riders. With everyone else it's a crapshoot and I am including bicycle riders headed downhill in that group.

The latest thing now are the street stunt bikeriders doing all the stuff you see in the bootleg videos. Anyway, that's a whole nuther subject for a different day.

mark kibort

These canyon runs can be like DEs. actually, very very simular. there is no racing or passing, generally, but make no mistake, a lot of the guys are pushing their cars passed their limits. Remember, as I mentioned before, running a car on the ragged edge is realatively easy with some experience at the track. you know the limits of the car, hopefully, the cars limits at this point, is below your limits and control is almost second nature.
As our 747 pilot chimmed in about, its realitively easy to fly a plane at altitude, but where these Pilots earn their money is on landings and in emergency situations. He can obviously relate to flying 2 mistakes high. I like that term, as I kind of live and drive by that phylosophy. Im still driving 10/10ths, but if i over cook an approach to a turn on the track, i know the only thing that will usually come out of it, is that i miss the apex, NOT hit a wall or even drive throught the dirt. The car will aways be talking to you. those are the gauges for which you drive by. (not just your dash gauges) .

as a young kid, I always thought that cab drivers with 1,000,000miles of seat time were expert drivers. later I realized that they are good at one thing. driving around at slow speeds picking up fares.
Hours and hours of practice??? no, hours and hours of perfect practice. (or relivant practice!).
After some DE experience, you get the techniques to drive near the limit and learn how the car reacts in certain situations.

Guys on mountain, canyon runs usually just are going past their skill level becuase it adds to the thrill level and feeds their ego for showing the guy behind them how crazy they are. These guys can still have fun if they new what areas to push and where not to. generally, there is lots of fun and safety exiting turns and applying full throttle out of them. Approaching turns, the old , first learned , brake straight, and know your turn in speed/capability. this way, the place that most guys "bite it" is avoided.

If you saw the skid marks before the guy ran off the cliff, there was more than enough time to slow the car down to make that turn. becuase he had little or no track time, he panic stopped, locked the tires slide for quite awhile before launching off the cliff. undercontrol, its amazing how fast a decent DE guy can slow a car down before a hair pin. In Speed GT at laguna seca a couple of years ago, we ran 260 tread wear tires and hit turn 1 at min, 130ish mph, and within 100feet of the turn, we are slowed down to 50mph and are able to take a very tight hairpin (turn2).

the high speed canyon runs are fun. But you have to check your ego at the door, know your cars limitations and your own, and try not to endanger anyone around you. (drive under control, meaning if your tires are screeching/sliding, your driving too fast).. Remember, the race track has one way traffic (no on coming cars) and walls designed for impact should something go wrong. on a mountain road, you have trees and cliff valleys to stop your falls.

Mk

Bernie

My personal rule of thumb is that if I HAVE to follow a raceline to keep up or to feel comfortable, I am driving too fast for the road or road conditions.
If I follow a raceline through a chicane or other turn by choice, I am not in danger of losing control.
I also almost always use a wide entry whenever possible on roads that I do not know. That way, I know I have the best chances of a clean apex and won't be shot out the other side of the turn into oncoming traffic.
As I have followed other drivers, I have noticed that early apexing is usually what bites a lot of people in the *** going into a corner. That and braking too late and too hard for what is usually an unknown.

I consider myself a very responsible driver. Twenty three years behind the wheel and no accidents or DUI's. I am not afraid of kicking it a little or leaning on my machinery to do the same. When I have found myself in REAL critical situations on the freeway (dodging BBQ's or ladders!!) I truely believe that everything that I have done and continue to do has kept my *** out of hot water, at least everywhere but Rennlist.....LOL

Cheers

Eyal 951

Mike didn't lock up, and there are no skidmarks. The only evidence of his pre flight logistics and on the dirt. You can see he meandered on to the dirt, and once there, the became really sideways, going off sideways as well. It appears that he never got of the gas. On the dirt you can see the marks, and then dirt and dust thrown behind the wheel, as the wheels were spinning.
BTW, there is a one way canyon road, and is mostly gaurded from leting one depart on an unschedualed flight. Its Called Tuna Rd. Its a lot more technical, however, and harder on the breaking. All Porsche that get to the bottom there look like their brakes are on fire, from all the smoke. Such a great road. It also TRUELY has NO houses, and NO pedestrians, and RARELY do i ever see any traffic, actually, nearly never. This road, you can apex on either side, very cool. Of course, still, drive within your limits.
Normy, I hear you on the pilot reference. Thoough not a 747 pilot, I do hold a Private Pilot Certificate. Man, I miss flying, haven't done so in a few months. I fly out of Van Nuys Airport here.
~Eyal

SHRKBIT

Well, I don't drive under the speed limit, just not much over usually. There's enough complete stupidity on the roads without me adding to it or encouraging it. Experience and judgment seem to be what drivers lack most. Which is why we entice them into coming to driver skills day to learn what their car can and cannot do.

That said, I don't remember seeing any speed limits posted on the track in the last few years. I know some of you S4 guys cringe when my red S appears in your rear view mirrors.

Just joking, really.