A canyon run that didn't end so great, Sunday.
05-27-2004, 03:29 PM
#16
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MORONS!!!! But, I still feel terrible for the driver, and glad he is ok.
These guys should never be allowed on mountian roads, unless they have completed one driving event on a track!
its so funny to hear all this talk about a street prepared 928 not being able or should ever try keeping up with a race prepared GT3 etc....... Look, any decent racer or even DE guy will DESTROY a GT3 with novice DE or lack of track experience driver, on a race track, in just about any type of decent 250hp car. On the track, we all race to the equivilant of 2 mistakes high in flying. meaning. you know your turn in points, so 99% of the time, if you miss your turn in point, the worst that will happen is that you make the turn off line, or get a wiggle. the guys that are spinning out, driving in the dirt on consecutive laps, are just out of control and are not in tune with their limits. However, these guys are Heads and shoulders about the clowns in these "road ralley race events" .
I just had a friend waste a brand new 996 cab. he didnt want to go to thunderhill, (track in Nor Cal) because he thought it would be way to harmful to the car. he was an agressive, and had good/basic car control skills, but when the rubber left the road, he was into a wall, before he could say " I think I saw a dear, yeah, thats what happened).
egos (we all got them)+ fast cars + curvey road - solid car control experience = DEATH and/or destruction.
In the words of Clint Eastwood (Dirty Harry) " A mans got to know his limitations!"
do yourselves a favor, take a few DE events, you have no idea how much fun you will have and how much it will help your driving.
Mk
These guys should never be allowed on mountian roads, unless they have completed one driving event on a track!
its so funny to hear all this talk about a street prepared 928 not being able or should ever try keeping up with a race prepared GT3 etc....... Look, any decent racer or even DE guy will DESTROY a GT3 with novice DE or lack of track experience driver, on a race track, in just about any type of decent 250hp car. On the track, we all race to the equivilant of 2 mistakes high in flying. meaning. you know your turn in points, so 99% of the time, if you miss your turn in point, the worst that will happen is that you make the turn off line, or get a wiggle. the guys that are spinning out, driving in the dirt on consecutive laps, are just out of control and are not in tune with their limits. However, these guys are Heads and shoulders about the clowns in these "road ralley race events" .
I just had a friend waste a brand new 996 cab. he didnt want to go to thunderhill, (track in Nor Cal) because he thought it would be way to harmful to the car. he was an agressive, and had good/basic car control skills, but when the rubber left the road, he was into a wall, before he could say " I think I saw a dear, yeah, thats what happened).
egos (we all got them)+ fast cars + curvey road - solid car control experience = DEATH and/or destruction.
In the words of Clint Eastwood (Dirty Harry) " A mans got to know his limitations!"
do yourselves a favor, take a few DE events, you have no idea how much fun you will have and how much it will help your driving.
Mk
05-27-2004, 03:32 PM
#17
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What would the alternative have been? A line of sportscars, driving through a canyon and up a hill, all in a row, and all under the speed limit? If I were a CHP I would pull them all over for suspicious behaviour 
No-one I know (OK well except Curt) drives like that on an outing. Life gives you lemons, you make lemonade. Life gives you Porsches .... you make fun.
No-one I know (OK well except Curt) drives like that on an outing. Life gives you lemons, you make lemonade. Life gives you Porsches .... you make fun.
05-27-2004, 04:00 PM
#19
Burning Brakes
Originally posted by mark kibort
its so funny to hear all this talk about a street prepared 928 not being able or should ever try keeping up with a race prepared GT3 etc....... Look, any decent racer or even DE guy will DESTROY a GT3 with novice DE or lack of track experience driver, on a race track, in just about any type of decent 250hp car.
its so funny to hear all this talk about a street prepared 928 not being able or should ever try keeping up with a race prepared GT3 etc....... Look, any decent racer or even DE guy will DESTROY a GT3 with novice DE or lack of track experience driver, on a race track, in just about any type of decent 250hp car.
Fact is that these runs are not 928 friendly at all. The radius of these turns is extremely tight in areas and even my best rally attempts at cornering had me pushing through some of those tight corners. Stunt Canyon road is insane going fast!
Your statement is counter-productive because it gives 928 owners a sense of dominance over other cars. This is the real danger when driving in these groups. It's the ego thing. Its the "Well, Kibort said a 928 can squash a GT3 so if he is going 100 around that corner, then so should I". Yes, but are you running 345 gorilla snot rubber and high temp ceramic brakes. Are your tires sticky enough? Are your brakes fading?
Fact is, these types of cars come from the factory with much better running gear and wider, stickier tires than 928's.
I agree that anyone with any seat time can keep up with fellas in superior cars. BUT, my seat time told me that enough was enough and to not try to keep up with a machine or machines that obviously had better running gear than I had. It may be why I am here writing this post today!
05-27-2004, 04:15 PM
#20
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Hypothetically , it would be much quicker when negotiating the curves on such a rally , cat and mouse , keeping up with a race prepped.......... event to simply use both lanes of the road ! That makes the curves so much easier and faster ........ simply use the lane typically reserved for opposing traffic ......Oh , right that would be irresponsible but does not the MOST irresponsible driver "win" under the current " rules " ? For less than the cost of a speeding ticket POC or PCA as well as numerous other clubs will let you drive a race track with only a helmet required and they will usually loan you the helmet ! If you really want to test the limits of your car the public street is a poor venue . I realise this is a pointless discussion ....give two young boys tricycles and it would not be long before ............. So please be safe , try not to endanger others , and realize what risks you are taking . Should you kill a passenger or someone else , your life as you know it may end . Unless you are a former Governor or Senator , vehicular manslaughter and the subsequent civil suit makes it pretty certain you will not have to worry about driving , working , what you will be eating for dinner or who you're sleeping with ; for a long time . If anyone is still reading this , I am done mouthing off ......
05-27-2004, 04:28 PM
#21
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Originally posted by Jim bailey - 928 International
...I am done mouthing off ......
...I am done mouthing off ......
05-27-2004, 04:44 PM
#22
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We'd better contact Porsche North America and have them remove that Cayenne commercial. You know the one, where the father is watching his son push a pea through a curvy line in his mashed potatoes and then says, "how many times do I have to tell you....." then it cuts to father and son smiling as they negotiate a curvy road in a Porsche SUV.
05-27-2004, 07:26 PM
#23
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Randy you knew it could not be true 
......... Kaz , note those driving commercials now all have the disclaimers .... professional driver closed course . Just another example of how litigious our culture has become .
......... Kaz , note those driving commercials now all have the disclaimers .... professional driver closed course . Just another example of how litigious our culture has become .
05-27-2004, 07:56 PM
#24
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any piece of pavement that is smooth and is taken in the meat of 2nd gear is pretty friendly to any 928 I have been in. Ive been all over Mohulland drive, but never really pushed it hard enough to endanger my car , passenger or me. I know lots of tracks as well as roads that are "insane" when you are going fast. and yes, lots of transitional turns favor lighter, newer cars vs the 928 in stock form.
However, im not trying to give the 928 any sence of dominance, other than its bang for the buck as a race platform. Most ALL cars perform pretty close to the same on the track in stock form and on stock tires. There are plenty of basically stock BMW328s that run on 225 street toyos T1S (a real street tire) that have posted much better times than C class cars on hoosiers in PCA events (ie WC drivers vs porsche club time trialers)
My point is for all the guys running these ego mountain runs, is to get some real track time first, before you follow someone off a cliff, not REALLY knowing your limits or that of your car.
I, like you, would probably back off a guy in a street GT3, with street tires, as I would not want to push him too hard and be somewhat responsible for him overdriving himself right off a cliff. Plus, I dont like driving on mountain roads that hard. I get kind of nervous not REALLY knowing what lies around the next turn or bend. (pot hole to roaming animal or on coming car!) Its also very difficult to push a car to its limit, without really knowing the road.
Yes, the GT3 comes from the factory, almost ready to race. our 928s need to be gutted by 500lbs, and clad with larger tires and suspension as you say, to at least be in their ball park.
Im all for having fun on the street, but you HAVE to know your limitations!
You seem to know yours, and I think i have a handle on mine, but its those other guys im worried about!
Mk
However, im not trying to give the 928 any sence of dominance, other than its bang for the buck as a race platform. Most ALL cars perform pretty close to the same on the track in stock form and on stock tires. There are plenty of basically stock BMW328s that run on 225 street toyos T1S (a real street tire) that have posted much better times than C class cars on hoosiers in PCA events (ie WC drivers vs porsche club time trialers)
My point is for all the guys running these ego mountain runs, is to get some real track time first, before you follow someone off a cliff, not REALLY knowing your limits or that of your car.
I, like you, would probably back off a guy in a street GT3, with street tires, as I would not want to push him too hard and be somewhat responsible for him overdriving himself right off a cliff. Plus, I dont like driving on mountain roads that hard. I get kind of nervous not REALLY knowing what lies around the next turn or bend. (pot hole to roaming animal or on coming car!) Its also very difficult to push a car to its limit, without really knowing the road.
Yes, the GT3 comes from the factory, almost ready to race. our 928s need to be gutted by 500lbs, and clad with larger tires and suspension as you say, to at least be in their ball park.
Im all for having fun on the street, but you HAVE to know your limitations!
You seem to know yours, and I think i have a handle on mine, but its those other guys im worried about!
Mk
Originally posted by Bernie
Mark,
Fact is that these runs are not 928 friendly at all. The radius of these turns is extremely tight in areas and even my best rally attempts at cornering had me pushing through some of those tight corners. Stunt Canyon road is insane going fast!
Your statement is counter-productive because it gives 928 owners a sense of dominance over other cars. This is the real danger when driving in these groups. It's the ego thing. Its the "Well, Kibort said a 928 can squash a GT3 so if he is going 100 around that corner, then so should I". Yes, but are you running 345 gorilla snot rubber and high temp ceramic brakes. Are your tires sticky enough? Are your brakes fading?
Fact is, these types of cars come from the factory with much better running gear and wider, stickier tires than 928's.
I agree that anyone with any seat time can keep up with fellas in superior cars. BUT, my seat time told me that enough was enough and to not try to keep up with a machine or machines that obviously had better running gear than I had. It may be why I am here writing this post today!
Mark,
Fact is that these runs are not 928 friendly at all. The radius of these turns is extremely tight in areas and even my best rally attempts at cornering had me pushing through some of those tight corners. Stunt Canyon road is insane going fast!
Your statement is counter-productive because it gives 928 owners a sense of dominance over other cars. This is the real danger when driving in these groups. It's the ego thing. Its the "Well, Kibort said a 928 can squash a GT3 so if he is going 100 around that corner, then so should I". Yes, but are you running 345 gorilla snot rubber and high temp ceramic brakes. Are your tires sticky enough? Are your brakes fading?
Fact is, these types of cars come from the factory with much better running gear and wider, stickier tires than 928's.
I agree that anyone with any seat time can keep up with fellas in superior cars. BUT, my seat time told me that enough was enough and to not try to keep up with a machine or machines that obviously had better running gear than I had. It may be why I am here writing this post today!
05-27-2004, 09:39 PM
#26
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I'd like to reiterate for the, oh 2387th time, THERE IS, WAS, AND NEVER WILL BE ANY RACING INVOLVED AT ANY RUN I AM A PART OF! MK, you can not be righter. You MUST know your limits to to this. I don't know mine, not in the porsche, that is why I ride along, or I take up dead last, and take my time. These are stricktly "leave you ego at home" events. How I used to drive, before I owned the Porsche, was stupid dangerous, but how many of us here can say that we didnt drive stupid dangerous before the age of 18. I'm 20 now, I've pretty much calmed down to a safe point, as a matter of fact, i bet some of yoy nay sayers would be annoyed to be behind me. Yes, i run a spirited pace, but i leave lots of room for error, plus I know these roads so well. I know where to slow down because rocks fall on the road, I know where the blemishes are of the road, I know where police could hide, I know where cars can come out of, i know where i can go off, and where i am safe froma 300 ft plummit (sp?) I know each turn so well, and i know what kind of input will give me what kind of reaction in the car. But I DON'T know my car, and I DON'T know MY limitations in my car. I want to take it to the track. Honestly, i dont think he overcooked this turn, i think he blew a tire. if you lookm in my thread, you can find the explaination. Mike
is always conservative, hence why he pulled over to NOT try and keep up with the GT3's, who both were WELL below thier driving limits, and the cars limits. I'll be organizing a run around here soon enough, you should come out, those that want to go fast can go up front, but still be safe, and those that go slower, in back. I'll be in back.
~Eyal
is always conservative, hence why he pulled over to NOT try and keep up with the GT3's, who both were WELL below thier driving limits, and the cars limits. I'll be organizing a run around here soon enough, you should come out, those that want to go fast can go up front, but still be safe, and those that go slower, in back. I'll be in back.
~Eyal
05-27-2004, 10:19 PM
#27
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Eyal you can't sweat it man. If you tell a story on a message board by the time you get to the 2nd page of responses the facts as you know them will have changed. By the time you get to the third message board linking back to your original story you will discover that you had taken your bone stock car and convinced a bunch of friends to crash a stage or two at a WRC event in Finland.
Most people don't realize what risk really is anyway. I know my scale changed once I'd visited a mining operation in Guinea West Africa during Sierra Leons's coup problems. One problem were militiamen(boys), checkpoints and bullets. The other were the roads. Whether paved or not they can be just as twisted as anything you'll see in the canyons without the elevation changes of course. If you're fortunate you're riding in a Land Rover or well kept Mercedes Benz while traffic around you is in mostly unidentifiable vehicles of, Russian and French decent. In anycase everything around you is either overloaded and slow or just a wreck moving at impossible speeds. There are no lights, traffic lights or even road markings for the most part. Every so often on either side of the road you can see the charred result of previous collisions, most of them head on. There is no ambulance coming for you and certainly no Medivac unit.
So yeah, the Malibu canyons, know your limits and be careful.
Most people don't realize what risk really is anyway. I know my scale changed once I'd visited a mining operation in Guinea West Africa during Sierra Leons's coup problems. One problem were militiamen(boys), checkpoints and bullets. The other were the roads. Whether paved or not they can be just as twisted as anything you'll see in the canyons without the elevation changes of course. If you're fortunate you're riding in a Land Rover or well kept Mercedes Benz while traffic around you is in mostly unidentifiable vehicles of, Russian and French decent. In anycase everything around you is either overloaded and slow or just a wreck moving at impossible speeds. There are no lights, traffic lights or even road markings for the most part. Every so often on either side of the road you can see the charred result of previous collisions, most of them head on. There is no ambulance coming for you and certainly no Medivac unit.
So yeah, the Malibu canyons, know your limits and be careful.
05-27-2004, 11:35 PM
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Jim had very valid points in his first reply to this...If you think public roads are the place to play I invite you to go and spend some time with your local firefighter/ems personel....ask them how they feel about them risking their lives to help idiots who should know better....oh..I forgot..that's what they are paid to do...wonder how he (the driver) would have felt had the helicpter crashed and killed all aboard on the way to the scene...trying to help someone out that was just having "fun"....I've seen way too many lifeless remains due to stupidity and people thinking they can handle their cars on public roads...Nothing irritates me more to pull up on a scene to find someone killed or seriously injured due to stupidity.....enough said.Seeing a human die in this manner is not something you tend to forget easily.....
Michael Mason
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05-27-2004, 11:53 PM
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- The common problem for people like me who work for airlines as pilots is that we have to deal with an entrenched management idea that we are little more than truck drivers or whining auto-pilots.
Listen, I fly a 747-200. I am certain that with very little instruction on my part, that I could have ANY of you flying this airplane at altitude. Take offs and landings would take a little while longer, but I am convinced that simply "flying the plane" is something that most people can do. If you can fly a 928, then you can likely drive a 747.
BUT simply flying it through the sky is indeed, the easy part. What is NOT easy is judgement; in my case, I earn a decent living because my experience and knowledge lends me the judgement to manage the movement of an aircraft from point to point around the globe without violating any of the world's laws or causing an accident. Airline management doesn't seem to understand this- they think we drive garbage trucks with an extra "0" behind each number on the speedometer. I have news for them: "Heavy Metal" was a fantasy!
Judgement is the biggest skill in driving a car; unfortunately, it is the skill in shortest supply! ANYONE can get in ANY car and put their foot to the floor, but only an EXPERT can move an automobile from one point on a twisty mountain road to another in a very short time. This ability to move the vehicle comes from training and experience.
Normy! <----has no racing experience outside of a few runs on a dragstrip. I have no formal drivers training, and the fact that in 22 years of driving cars I have never [knock on wood] made a mark on a car only indicates that I am a pretty calm driver. This also indicates that I know my limitations, and my judgement commands me to be careful when I on great occasion encounter a twisty road, such as the Blue Ridge Parkway in North Carolina.
Right now, it is all the rage in the 928 community to mount a blower on your car. Listen- for the price of $12k for the car and $8k for the blower kit, you can build a 600 hp 928 that will, with good tires, post quarter mile times similar to a Carerra GT, handle just as well, and look better in the process! That's great, I love it...but I worry about minivan drivers being turned loose with the road-going equivalent of an F-16.....
In short, I won't push my car beyond my own capabilities. Do you?
N!
Listen, I fly a 747-200. I am certain that with very little instruction on my part, that I could have ANY of you flying this airplane at altitude. Take offs and landings would take a little while longer, but I am convinced that simply "flying the plane" is something that most people can do. If you can fly a 928, then you can likely drive a 747.
BUT simply flying it through the sky is indeed, the easy part. What is NOT easy is judgement; in my case, I earn a decent living because my experience and knowledge lends me the judgement to manage the movement of an aircraft from point to point around the globe without violating any of the world's laws or causing an accident. Airline management doesn't seem to understand this- they think we drive garbage trucks with an extra "0" behind each number on the speedometer. I have news for them: "Heavy Metal" was a fantasy!
Judgement is the biggest skill in driving a car; unfortunately, it is the skill in shortest supply! ANYONE can get in ANY car and put their foot to the floor, but only an EXPERT can move an automobile from one point on a twisty mountain road to another in a very short time. This ability to move the vehicle comes from training and experience.
Normy! <----has no racing experience outside of a few runs on a dragstrip. I have no formal drivers training, and the fact that in 22 years of driving cars I have never [knock on wood] made a mark on a car only indicates that I am a pretty calm driver. This also indicates that I know my limitations, and my judgement commands me to be careful when I on great occasion encounter a twisty road, such as the Blue Ridge Parkway in North Carolina.
Right now, it is all the rage in the 928 community to mount a blower on your car. Listen- for the price of $12k for the car and $8k for the blower kit, you can build a 600 hp 928 that will, with good tires, post quarter mile times similar to a Carerra GT, handle just as well, and look better in the process! That's great, I love it...but I worry about minivan drivers being turned loose with the road-going equivalent of an F-16.....
In short, I won't push my car beyond my own capabilities. Do you?
N!
Last edited by Normy; 05-28-2004 at 12:16 AM.