Realist D.

Back to the original post from MBMB ... the 924 was a VW project (it was), the 944 was an Audi project (it was not), and the 928 was a Mercedes project (it was not). This is the kind of crap perpetuated by the 911 faithful who can't bear the thought that there precious car has been an outdated design for decades.

BTW, the original slag should also include the fact that the 914 was a VW project (which it was). I like to point out to people who think this way that the 911 is based on the VW Beetle. That's where it all started. The early 356 (pre A) was really nothing more than a re-bodied VW Beetle with slightly bigger brakes and a stronger engine. All of the 356 engines, including the twin-cam Carrera engine bolt right into an early Beetle (when I was in school I had a '61 Beetle with a 356 Super 90 engine in it. It took no more than an afternoon to do a swap like that!) Anyway, if the 356 was based on a VW Beetle, then the 911 is also nothing more than a development of that design. In fact the 911 is a triumph of engineering in that it takes a poor design for a high-performance car (a VW) and overcomes all of the obstacles with excellent engineering. So there!

ViribusUnits

I'm sorry, but M-B bits on the 928? Have you looked at a 928's bits?

All most all the connectors, wires, dudads, and thingies are Bosch or Breu. Bosch and Breu are the supplyers of choice for German car mannufactors. They are completely independent of B-M, BMW, Porsche, Audi, VW, etc. Bosch started the FI systems, started high voltage ignition systems, and kept with it. They also did much of the begining work on anti-lock brakes, traction control, and many other things. They build pretty good systems even today. If you wanted state of the art in 1977, you talked to Bosch and Breu. M-B, BMW, Porsche, Audi, etc, all worked with their supplyers, (Bosch, Breu, and a few others.) The parts supplyed by the supplyers can not be concidered M-B, BMW, or whatever parts. Not to mention, I've yet to come accrost much of anything that doesn't have a Porsche, Bosch, or Breu part number. No M-B numbers on the car anywhere I've looked. If it was a project for M-B, you'd expect at least a few.

WallyP

"Bosch started the FI systems..."

Nope. Bendix started the electronic fuel injection systems, so long ago that the first ones had vacuum tubes! Bosch bought the Bendix Electrojector design and ran with it.

ViribusUnits

Well, I've never seen a production Bendix system.

The earlist FI systems I know of on any production cars were made by Bosch. They were really big into it in the mid 70s. I wasn't alive then, but I've played around with several late 70s cars. Bendix was not on the cars, Bosch was.

I know there were a few mechenical systems that are even older than the electric ones, dateing back to the 30s, but I don't know who made them. I do know they were not in mass production for the msot part.

mark kibort

Ill have to check my dads old 1970s FI book, that mentions Bendix all over it.

ViribusUnits

Cool. Learn something new every day!

Lets go find out about Benix FI!

Anyways, point being, the 928 was not a M-B project, and doesn't have M-B bits on it.

blau928

Hey ViribusUnits

How much $$ are you gonna give me if I send you a connector on the 928 that actually has the 3 pointed star logo on it..? And it's BERU, not BREU.. Yes, I know of BOSCH very well, actually, it's Robert BOSCH Gmbh, and I also know of Beru. And not because you were not around, or something was before your time means it does not exist. In addition, I am quite aware of supply chain integration for manufacturing companies, and have worked with several.

And again, not because YOU have not found any such connectors means they do not exist. According to your logic, maybe the car should be a Bosch/Beru 928 then..

Maybe if you are not too all knowing, you can also look up LUCAS, Weber, and Marelli..... You might really learn something.. And for mechanical ABS, maybe Bendix was doing something on Aircraft Carriers... But maybe Aeroplanes don't count as mass production in your vocabulary.

Was fur ein eierkopf ist bei uns in Amerika... Das ist wirklich zu viel.

Maybe you can look that up as well... but then again, you might already know it, or may never have heard of it, so it does not exist.

MBMB

I know I've seen the 3-pointed star somewhere on the 928, but can't remember where.

ViribusUnits

I have not seen it anywhere on the 928. All of the connecters I've seen are Bosch. Excepting a few that were added by the PO, a few radio ones, and a few Beru. I've been takeing things apart, and have found none. If there were any, I should have found them by now. If your willing to point me in the proper diriction, I'm intersted. Other than the automatic transmittion. I have the 5 speed.

I will give you no money for finding a connector that is M-B. You will have the pride and joy of proveing me wrong.

Btw, I'm not a complete idoit, nor all that arrogent. That wasn't nice. I didn't insult you. Course, you can do what you want.

Finaly, there are many things that were mass produced on aircraft, but didn't make it into the automotive world till MUCH later. Yes, I know of the various FI systems from way back when. The cost was just prohibitive to impliment it in the automotive world before.

I find people saying that the 928 was a M-B project because M-B has a similer engine to be like saying Ford worked with GM on their small block V-8 engine projects. Maybe there was a bit of cross polonation, but basicly nothing is interchangeable, and they're completely diffrent motors.

Barry Johnson

I know at least on the 5 liters, you can see the MB logo on the connector that hooks into something right to the left of the drivers side timing cover, in front of the intake, next to the oil filler. I haven't seen my engine for a while, so I can't tell you what it is exactly.

Thaddeus

I looked it up on babelfish...

"Which fur an egg head is with us in America... That is really too much."

I'm pretty sure that wasn't what was intended. Care to enlighten us?

2V4V

Very good history memory Wally!

I would just point out a couple of the more subtle facts around that statement.

Just the prototypes had vacuum tubes. By '57 when they were actually available as an option on production cars, they were 100% transistor driven.

AMC offered the system as option on the 57 Rambler Rebel. Did not sell many.

Chrysler offered it in the 300D and the DeSoto Adventurer - sold several hundred ca. 57-58.

Around 1965, Bendix had worked most of the issues out with EMI, injector life, etc. But.....

They new that gas was cheap in America, there were no emissions regs to meet at the time, and most people did not know (or care) how lousy carbs were - they were cheap. So.....

Bendix did a licensing deal with Bosch, giving Bosch access to the patents. Bendix knew that Bosch was already a world-class electrical OEM, and had lots of FI experience anyway - therefore, Bosch was better postioned to sell and develop new product.

Besides, there was a daily meeting of the US short-sighted automotive managers, and they decided that we don't need that fancy-schmancy EFI stuff- who needs fuel economy, HP, or driveability anyway? We can just keep on pumping junk, Americans will keep buying it. What're they gonna do, buy a car from Japan or Germany? Ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha!

(Ok, the last paragraph is just me watching the US auto industry for the last 25+ years. Seems like they'll keep that behaviour up 'till we have no domestic industry. So, so, sad. We could make the best product in the world. Instead, we make ugly product, of marginal quality. Every so often, there's a glimmer of hope. Then it gets peed on by some guy making $35 an hour to screw on lug nuts, and some comittee of suits making $500 an hour trying to make sure we have ***-tech looking cars, and making that $35 an hour guy's job impossible to do right. Ugh.)

Rant off.

Greg

Tom. M

The connector with the MB tri star is the electrical connection to the flappy vaccum control thingy..(don't remember what it is called)..and located where Beej said......

I still find it amazing that they could share so many parts between the different German car manufacturers...

Later,
Tom
midlman@rennlist.net
89 MB...GT ;-)

heinrich

Tom many of the German cars have Bosch parts throughout. Some Bosch parts have the Benz, Audi or VW crest imprinted into the plastic from Bosch. I suppose it's like some Ford parts locally ... they are used in all US cars.

blau928

The part mentioned above is on the switchover valve next to the driver's side cam cover. ViribusUnits does not see it, because it was not used on his model car, as there is no Flappy Valve. There are other connectors, but this is the most obvious.

The expression is German, and has some slang.... Eierkopf is another Berlin slang for A**hole, moron, oaf, etc.... Just venting at someone saying that because they looked on their car and did not find it, so it does not exist. The twist on using the slang was in case it was looked up, there is no literal translation, however, it does exist as a slang saying. There were several model designations of the 928, as I am sure we all know, so I was a bit miffed at our fellow R-Lister's arrogance to make such a statement.

Porsche also used Kugelfischer mechanical injection in development of some cars (911 based) before going with Bosch. It used only Bosch on the 928's. BOSCH also owns Blaupunkt, and supplied many of the audio systems in Porsche cars.

The fact remains, that the cars share many marts as Tom M mentioned. In addition, Piech and Porsche families being cousins may have something to do with the sharing of VAG (Volkswagen Audi Group) & Porsche parts. In addition, the suppliers are building many parts to multiple specs for cost. Now that VAG owns Bentley, have you noticed that the new Continental GT engine is literally a turbocharged W12 from VAG. In addition, the Bugatti W16 is from VAG. The Audi A8 and the VW Phaeton have the same engines. The Volvo 5 cylinder is a VAG engine, the SSangyong 3,2L six cyl is the Daimler Benz engine exactly, and that car is Korean.. The Crossfire has the Daimler Benz Engine as well, and is built by Karmann, who built so many chassis for VW.. Hell, the Bugatti Veyron is built in the old SKODA factory in CZECH, and until the new factory in Molsheim France is ready, it looks like it will be continued there..

Shucks, even Ford uses Bosch parts now in their cars. They even use the Lemfoerder (ZF) transmissions in their trucks.. Oh, and Lemfoerder makes a lot of driveline and suspension components... They own Loebro, ZF and a few other companies..


Thoughts to ponder about who designed what, and specifically for which application....

Cheers,