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Can you explain why you think it’s valuable to have a low number in a given production year? Your actual production sequence number is the entire ‘78 run + 42.
Maybe it’s the engineer in me, but it should be more valuable to have the last car in a production series, outside of literally the first car built, because it incorporates design and production revisions throughout the year.
Ask anyone how those aluminum ball joints went. Or the early ‘86 US cars built with ‘85 leftovers.
Valid question! I think the earlier the car the closer it is to genesis of said car. Or the earlier the car is to that generation/model/year then the closer it is to the genesis of that iteration.
I like your idea of refinement (read: fixing **** that's wrong) being of value. If we were owners and users of the Space Shuttle then damn yes- I'll take Atlantis over Columbia. So refinement definitely adds value and that leads to my thoughts that each generation/iteration of the 928 should be looked at individually. Hence a low VIN for an S4 being desirable, a low VIN for a GTS being desirable etc.
My Dad used to say- "Numbers are like loose women...once you have them down you can do what you want with them." No it's not PC but I think the point is, only 60,870 cars were built in total. The average is then 3,382 cars per year. A TINY amount! So all years share rarity. Can we contemplate using VINs as a way to subdivide that rarity? Should we? Who knows but at least it's factual and not creating a value/rarity myth without hard data (the 5 speed vs automatic comparison for example). Not all will agree and that is fine. The art analogy- 61,000 limited edition lithographs numbered from 1- 60,999.
Sure, all years share rarity compared to a Toyota Corolla, so that average doesn't really tell us anything. Serious collectors know that there were approximately 5,500 928s produced in 1979 and less than 500 in 1995. That is by definition an order of magnitude more rare. There is no debating this fact. Also there is no debating that the highest single sale prices (Save the Risky Business car) have been GTSs not OBs and that the highest average sales prices reside in the GTS market. The main reason is rarity IMO. The 5-speeds in the GTS production run are even more rare by absolute and percentage than the OBs, which further places more value on those 5-speed version of the GTS. All the hard data you need on this is on BaT.
Originally Posted by 79NINE28
Carried further, the lower the VIN in each year/generation of 928 the more intrinsic value it has since it is closer to that generation's "first iteration/genesis".
Again, I'm not convinced anyone would pay more for an early VIN S4 vs. a late VIN S4 with all things being equal. And that is the issue with this debate (which I am enjoying BTW). Cars are never equal. The are so many other variables that carry value that it will never be possible to truly put a pinpoint on which variable contributes what percentage to any given sale. Plus that fact that probably most of us buy on emotion, when you get two folks in an auction that fall in love with a specific car for emotional reasons, the resulting hammer price can be well beyond any rational prediction.
Sure, all years share rarity compared to a Toyota Corolla, so that average doesn't really tell us anything. Serious collectors know that there were approximately 5,500 928s produced in 1979 and less than 500 in 1995. That is by definition an order of magnitude more rare. There is no debating this fact. Also there is no debating that the highest single sale prices (Save the Risky Business car) have been GTSs not OBs and that the highest average sales prices reside in the GTS market. The main reason is rarity IMO. The 5-speeds in the GTS production run are even more rare by absolute and percentage than the OBs, which further places more value on those 5-speed version of the GTS. All the hard data you need on this is on BaT.
Again, I'm not convinced anyone would pay more for an early VIN S4 vs. a late VIN S4 with all things being equal. And that is the issue with this debate (which I am enjoying BTW). Cars are never equal. The are so many other variables that carry value that it will never be possible to truly put a pinpoint on which variable contributes what percentage to any given sale. Plus that fact that probably most of us buy on emotion, when you get two folks in an auction that fall in love with a specific car for emotional reasons, the resulting hammer price can be well beyond any rational prediction.
Rarity. I agree is the most single valuation factor. I made that point about the fact that way less automatics were fitted to OB generation 1 cars than 5 speeds. But the current zeitgeist is "5 speeds are rare for these years (they arent)" so that must have at least some sort of effect on market value.
The Corrola comparison isn't helping your argument Damn if i wasnt on my mobile I'd be more apt at researching but this might suffice- though its contemporary data not 1978... worldwide sports cars in THOUSANDS. Hell 55 THOUSAND 928s would be rare let alone 5,500 (1979 928s stats as you have kindly provided). I think it is safe to say in broad terms that every 928 is a rare car (at least from production number data).
Will people pay more for an earlier VIN per generation? They will if that zeitgeist is established. If owners/fans/collectors/prospective buyers/auctioneers etc. etc. decide that makes sense then it will happen. Part of all of my posts lately have been about the current 928 zeigeist, and the many myths of the 928. As owners or enthusiasts or both we are tasked with adding facts to and improving the 928 zeitgeist. They are objects of beauty and so much more...It wont be long before the Museum of Modern Art adds one to their collection...and with that looming debate (which generation is the most 'beautiful') I will close by saying I am enjoying this debate as well.
.....Keep in mind that Porsche was very happy to find 901 #57 to restore for their museum and refer to it as "the oldest 911" a dismal survival rate for a much loved Icon model launched only 13 years earlier....
I have to correct this. I found a registry for these cars and it appears that prototypes 27 and 60 are accounted for, and production cars 05 11 12 13 18 19 20 24 25 27 28 32 37 43 and 49 , so actually around 30% survival rate for those.
Rarity. I agree is the most single valuation factor.
Lamborghini made the same number of Countaches as Maserati made Quattroporte IIIs. About 2,000 of each model over 10-15 years. And I'll guarantee an order of magnitude more QPs have been scrapped, since.
A Countach sells for $500,000, I'm in talks to buy a cherry QPIII for under $8k.
Rarity is NOT the factor, desirability is. Things that are desirable and rare are valuable, things that are only rare are not.
There's much truth in what you have said...and more layers as well. I think that the 928 started with the purity of a GT design in mind- a GRAND TOURER not a 'slam and bam gear shifting machine' (I've owned some of those! Enjoyable but not a GT that exists with pep, torque and comfort for stop and go traffic and long drives that include steep hills). Later the car seemed to become something else..... let's add larger engine then we can make it heavier, change it's profile, make it beefier, make it......"sportier". The last generation 928 is very much a different kind of car than the 1978/9 model i think. Each has it's merits. Can we at least agree that an automatic car is more comfortable (less labor intensive) to drive than a manual and therefore more GT like?
The 928 started out as a timid forced compromise! It was supposed to have a large engine with 400HP! But gas was a thing like now and somebody CHICKENED OUT. Fuhrmann was running the show but Herr Porsche was still active then too along with his sister. I don't know who caved but they continued in the wrong direction for quite a while. The early cars along with anemic power also had a NON-aggressive stance/appearance. Look how far IN those wheels are in back! Like an XKE. It needs spacers bad.
They eventually got things back on track with front/rear spoilers, then LH euro in 84, and wider track option. But their marketing was STILL WEAK. Showing old ladies going antiques shopping??? WTF was that. Can you imagine Lambo doing that?
I think the peak of 928ness is 85-86 MISSING 1 part > the GTS hips! That width in back completes the look and why I believe rolling the fenders with wider tires enhances non GTS versions.
As for the auto, it is not just comfort, it is CONCENTRATION. When driving hard I can concentrate on the road and the FEEL of the car. I would press my left foot on the wall and I could feel the suspension/tire flex in hard cornering. Shifting is way too distracting. My "swiss auto" shifts would actually shoot the car forward when in kickdown just like I here people describe aventadors with the single disc transmission.
The 928 started out as a timid forced compromise! It was supposed to have a large engine with 400HP! But gas was a thing like now and somebody CHICKENED OUT. Fuhrmann was running the show but Herr Porsche was still active then too along with his sister. I don't know who caved but they continued in the wrong direction for quite a while. The early cars along with anemic power also had a NON-aggressive stance/appearance. Look how far IN those wheels are in back! Like an XKE. It needs spacers bad.
They eventually got things back on track with front/rear spoilers, then LH euro in 84, and wider track option. But their marketing was STILL WEAK. Showing old ladies going antiques shopping??? WTF was that. Can you imagine Lambo doing that?
I think the peak of 928ness is 85-86 MISSING 1 part > the GTS hips! That width in back completes the look and why I believe rolling the fenders with wider tires enhances non GTS versions.
As for the auto, it is not just comfort, it is CONCENTRATION. When driving hard I can concentrate on the road and the FEEL of the car. I would press my left foot on the wall and I could feel the suspension/tire flex in hard cornering. Shifting is way too distracting. My "swiss auto" shifts would actually shoot the car forward when in kickdown just like I here people describe aventadors with the single disc transmission.
I agree with most of your posts, tv, and this one is no exception. Personally I went for a 16v S over an OB (I had the choice) because they just weren't good enough in my eyes. I totally see the appeal of first iterations and clean body designs, but I just can't shake how compromised of a car the OBs are. Nice to see others think alike.
Porsche really were being cowardly when they released it but came to their senses only two years later and gave us (but not the States) the S. The RoW S is the 928 it was supposed to be from inception. That is not a personal opinion, but factual if you read Project 928 and the other books.
I chuckled at your mention of that classic advertising video from (I believe) Porsche UK. They really didn't know what market to focus on. That whole promotional video was like it was for a Rolls or Bentley. No disrespect to the 928 in that regard, but it is not anywhere near quiet and luxurious enough. No previous experience with a grand touring car shows.
On the autos, I think by now most readers are aware of my praise for the humble 3-speed. In RoW S guise and working correctly these cars are slingshots. The 4-speed requires a bit more focus to get the right gears going, but the sensations are the same.
They, Porsche management, weren't perfect, that is for sure. The 928 should have come from the factory with Darkland's 928 front fender height, My custom exhaust, Konstantine's TBF fix, rolled fenders and much wider tires. 285's in the back. (All stuff they do now esp on the GT products, took them 25 years to come out of their shell)
Strosek had an answer for all your wishes back in the 80‘s!
Maybe the car had than his habitat in an redlight destrict with his König and Gemballa and DP Motorsport family.
Wild times!
You mean this picture? Euro S without rubbies,no sunroof, an real color, Turbo seats, big brakes , GT gearbox with short final gear.
It‘s not an collector car, but you feel 20 years younger if you start the engine and let it fly.
The exhaust sound is an statement and it's fast on the road but the only sound dampening are GTS rubber strips in the windshield frame.
A fun tool for egoistic personal use without the intention to farm money!
Yes that picture which is the same road height as the Black one I posted, just RIGHT.
As far as aftermarket body kits, I do NOT like them. They just distorted the great design of the 928S into something comical. Except this one which might be Jacquemond.
See how full the wheel wells are above ^^ that is perfect!
10-27-2022, 05:05 PM
Damn if i wasnt on my mobile I'd be more apt at researching but this might suffice- though its contemporary data not 1978... worldwide sports cars in THOUSANDS. Hell 55 THOUSAND 928s would be rare let alone 5,500 (1979 928s stats as you have kindly provided). I think it is safe to say in broad terms that every 928 is a rare car (at least from production number data). 
