mkhargrove

I'm with you on this. I love the look of the car and it was my dream when i was a kid. But honestly, my 944 turbo was better in the sense that there weren't poorly designed components (i.e. drivers door handle, hatch lock, etc.). It drove better than any other car that I've had. And the sunroof was designed so that it didn't cause my head to rub the ceiling even with the seat fully upright...lol!
Even though it got attention, it didn't get the freak out response that the 928 gets.

esharon

@cobalt breaking away from the economy chatter to say your GTS is stunning! As a 1991 GT owner I was surprised to see a 928 next to all those AMG Hammers (and one AM Vantage) but when I came closer I realized how special it was, from the color right down to the Porsche branded Cell phone! I never even knew the option existed.

Needless to say this warmed my heart and excited about the future of these cars. The good ones at least as everyone wisely said.

I hope to see you and your car again at a future event!

cobalt

Thank you that is very kind and the car wasn't at its best either LOL.

Those Hammers were amazing. I always liked that series the last of the real MB that I would consider owning. To see the monsters all lined up was a sight. I was told it was the largest gathering of hammers in the world with the wagon asking $1M and the cheapest at $750k. That was a rather special AMG 560SEC next to me as well. I had no idea they could fetch $250k. The Astons were similar in color to mine as well which was interesting. I was way off in the distance but a lot of people showed immense appreciation for the car and the cell phone does get a lot of attention. To think 17 years ago when I purchased the car I was going to rip that out. So glad I didn't. I can't tell you how many were telling me they or their friends are desperately searching for a nice 928. The issue is finding a nice one for reasonable money is no longer as easy as it used to be.

Hope to see you around as well. I had my 94 turbo there last year and I was down on the hill which was a nicer location but the fact that the 928 was requested was IMO monumental and I believe we will see these get the long overdue attention they deserve.

esharon

I totally agree with everything incl that Hammer Wagon. I have a love hate relationship with SECs. They are stout but a bit barge-like. Seeing it outside that cluster was a question mark for me but oh well.

the Aston reminded me of the old Virage which i always liked. Hope they bring one at some point. Overall amazing cars - what color is your 94? I’ll look at last years photos to see it. Speaking of last year: the bespoke coach built grouping was most memorable for me (the 356 Zagato).

if there is any interest from the group I’m happy to start a thread with photos fr both years so we can keep focusing on the 928 market here.

Agree re 928 interest. I had a Euro S manual years ago which sparked my appreciation for these cars. It was really hard to find one in my home country so I guess I was lucky but I had to sell it when I moved stateside (now 20 years ago).

The GT is a recent purchase and somewhat hasty (fear of missing out after being outbid on several auctions) but we already started the long journey of un-deferring maintenance and setting things right (it was reupholstered from Classic gray to Striking white with black piping…). Still, it drives well and so modern like, then there’s the sound and endless 80s charm… it will never be Bridge worthy but definitely presentable and will make me smile every time I drive it!

icsamerica

"We just relived 1984 in regards to the 928 market".

As for development, Porsche learned their lesson fast to invest in the 944. Despite massive improvements for 1985 regarding the transmission, engine and interior updates, 928 sales in 85 and 86 weren't any better than 1982/83/84 and down considerably from 1984. On top of that 1982 was the low point of a recession and the economy was improving by 1985. That stunning sales data point must have influenced the decision makers at Porsche to take what little capital they had in a direction other that the 928.

Conversely in 1982 Porsche sold 4000 944s and by 1986 sales were over 10,000. That's about a 250% increase in sales compared to -5 to 5% for the 928 for 85 and 86 during the same time period. Clearly the market Porsche envisioned for the 928 was not materializing for some reason at the time. The reasons are debatable but I don't suspect they've changed all that much as human physiology doesn't change all that fast. So from this we can concluded the future looks bright for the 944.

Its intriguing to me that the 1984 sales figures for the 928 were so strong. Perhaps it's no accident that in August of '83 the RB Move was released, just-In-time for the '84's to hit the shore. Also in January of '84 Popular Mechanics magazine tested the 928 against some of it's peers. The testing data shows the 928 and the the 944 were top of the heap. Readership of that magazine would have been right in the 928's target demographics. Sales were up 1100 units or 20% over 1983 followed by a shocking (to me) sales decline in 85 and there after. I've often lamented what if PM tested the 928 in 85, how much better it would have been with the 4 cam's torque.

This kind'a serves my reversion to the mean thesis for 928 values and it goes like this... in 83 / 84 the 928 got lots of media and press. The Popular Mechanics article and Risky Business Movie. Same is true more recently for the 928 in 2021/2022 with media coverage, Hovies' still-born interest, GasMonkey Garage Interest , Nardone's splash, and quite a few note worthy sales like the Risky Business car. But all that's in the rear view mirror, going forward 2023+ will be more like 85/86 and onwards. We just relived 1984 in regards to the 928. Still a great car, still in need of development, still under appreciated.

https://rennlist.com/forums/928-foru...-limerock.html

drooman

Regarding sales figures by year, what drives these figures? Do previous years sales drive production? or does production drive sales? I'd imagine a ying and yang dynamic there, if they make more they sell more, until they don't, so they make less, then sell less, and make even less. Why the ~10% dip and rebound around 1985? If loads of 85s spilled over into the 86 model year as leftovers (production outweighed demand) wouldn't they have curtailed 1986 production? Maybe the quarterly sales fell off a cliff for the 84 cars in the final 84 MY quarter. 1988 on looks like demand destruction, 1985 looks like something else.

icsamerica

I'm not really sure, I've been trying to find someone to interview about the 928 sales / buying experience from back in the late 70's or early 80's. I've had no success, I presume the average new 928 buyer or sales person was in their late 40's back in the 1980's and now they are in their 80's. If anyone has a lead, let me know.

In general new cars and inventory are ordered by the dealer, Generally speakin dealers had to finance their own inventory back then so it was imperative they had cars which would sell quickly. Manufactures could help finance inventory with a 'floor plan' that offered a low interest rate but I don't know if Porsche even had a 'floor plan' back then. Dealers and their sales people generally had a more personal relationship with people back then and every few years the sales person would go through their rolodex and call you to gauge your interest in a new car. That interest data would find it way to the "buyer" by way of formal or informal sales meetings. The buyer would consider this info and general demand to order inventory for the dealer to stock. I suspect many dealers ordered more 944's than 928's for stock becasue they could have twice as much inventory for the same capital out lay. If the 928 was a slow mover, then the dealer may have had just one on the floor by Porsche dictate. They may have made the 928 a special order item by suggesting the one they already has was sold, even though it wasn't as to not tie up more money replacing it. Then they may have actually sold it at the end of the of the model year when the next one arrived. Impulse buys or "spots" are a big part of a dealers sales flow and you need inventory to do spots. With sale of just 3800 units typical, that just 76 cars per state per year. I'm sure they were doing way more 944 spots than 928 spots becasue it's way easier to spot a 34k car than a 55k car, especially back in the 80's. I'm also sure many 928 were special ordered as the years went on becasue of the high incidence of "interesting" color combinations. Dealership buyers tend to stick to black, red and white. Almost no chance a dealer ship would order a Blue Metalic over Burgundy for inventory.

I don't know if 928 production was constrained or what the dealership allocation was like. These are questions I'd like to have answered. Sometimes dealers would / could sell more of a particular model if they could get more of them. Perhaps this was the case with the 928, perhaps their was no demand, perhaps it was a floor pan capital issue. I'd like to know the answers to these questions but I haven't found any one to ask yet.

928 GT R

A retired orthopedic surgeon friend was at my house this evening, he told me the following story. In 1986 he left the BMW dealer and was off to the Mercedes dealer to buy a 450 SL, but his son pointed out that only old silver haired women bought those things. When he pulled up to the next stoplight he found himself next to a silver haired woman in a 450! Nuff said, he turned around and went to the Porsche dealer and bought a Guards Red 928 off the showroom floor. It was an automatic and modestly optioned.

He loved the car and wishes he had kept it...

In light of your questions, I'll ask him for more insight into what else was on the dealers floor and for additional details about the sales experience.

drooman

I was doing a little searching on the concept of the 928 "replacing" the 911 and ran across this Rennlist article...which I find a little embarrassing.

Oslo928

The small rant ahead does not add anything valuable to the thread, I just had 10 minutes to waste before picking up my daughter in school and couldn't resist

Sir, I loved your post, but is you that are missing the point, the argument between me and the member I quoted was about europeans not caring about automatic cars.

I was born in 1980 less then one hour drive from Italy's car manufacturing city, Turin, and to see an automatic car, any brand, I had to put on the TV and watch an american movie, even taxis were rare in automatic.

The first automatic car I sat in was in 2001 a Ford Focus bought by my friend and flat mate because he had a car accident the year before and lost all mobility of the left ankle, years later when he partially recovered the mobility sold the auto and bought himself an Audi TT.

Voilà now I can be guilty of individualizing

cobalt

In 1984-1985 I spent quite some time searching Europe for 5 year old Porsche's to import to the US under the grey market. I was able to bring over a special custom built 911 3.0RS clone and an 80 928 special wishes built for an executive. I don't have the paperwork but the engine was a larger displacement than the stock cars and quite fast. I have to agree every cab or car you saw was a manual for the most part. Most cabs were MB diesels with manual trans. The 928 was a manual and I had looked at several dozen for sale at the time and don't recall seeing one auto. It doesn't mean autos didn't exist but my friends uncle who lived in St Gallen CH, helped us search and had a rare auto jaguar XJ12L. I do recall him saying that autos were not common and most were US cars usually driven by pimps and prostitutes. His words not mine. Although he also drove a Cutlass which was quite the attention getter and huge car for the roads. So not sure what he was saying but he owned a Persian rug cleaning co. He was a true salesman and could sell you your own shirt off your back.

On the home front. I had many friends with Porsche's growing up. I was lucky to find some nice ones during the grey market with a 5:1 Swiss Franc exchange rate. My HS friends (now years after College) all came from well to do families so they had new US spec cars many with 928's. Most all were auto's. Owning a 928 back then was a rich man's car and the 944 was a huge seller as it was an easy way to step into a modern sports car that didn't cost 911 or 928 money. After waiting for over a year in 83 for my 944 to be delivered I cancelled my order as the waiting list became the beginning of who will pay a premium for a car days. When the 951 came out the constant arguing over which model was better was becoming annoying. There was never a quiet moment when one wasn't bragging how theirs was best. Once the expensive repairs started showing up it was time for them to sell them off and buy something else. I kept my 911 and sold off the 928 which was a constant PITA with electrical gremlins but wish I had kept.

To back up what Andrew said but my experience tells me that back in the 80's the interest in an auto 928 was very limited in the European market as stated but not so much in the US.

My father purchased a 450SL back in 75 it was a great car for the day but in reality it was like driving a quick truck with a ragtop. Most of his friends who were Dr's drove them and or the 450SLC. I don't think it became a silver haired ladies car until the 380SL came out.

GT6ixer

Also remember that for 1984, Porsche claimed that the 928 was the fastest street legal production car that you could buy in the United States. Being able to claim that as an owner had to drive sales.

As for your greater thesis of reverting to the mean, I think that may need to be measured against the mean of the collector market in whole in the next few years considering the current and predicted financial markets. If absolute sales figures wane, your prediction is only correct if other cars continue to hold steady or increase in acquisitions costs.

GT6ixer

Not sure how deep you are in your research on this topic, but I've done a bit myself, including reaching out to the folks the run the Archives at Porsche. So far my research has convinced me that the following statement made in this article (and almost every article on the subject) is unsubstantiated and not true.

"...the 911, the car Porsche intended to replace with the 928.... "

There is no doubt in my opinion when you do the reading that the 928 (and the 924 and 944) was a hedge against the 911 not being viable in the US market due to regulatory restrictions vs. cost to engineer the 911 around them. But that is not the same as Porsche setting out to deliberately cease 911 production and wholesale replace it with the 928, just like they did with the 356 when the 911 was ready for primetime. In fact, Ernst Furhmann was interviewed in 1980 (a year prior to Schutz's dictate that the 911 go on forever) and revealed that Porsche had a new car in development that would take up the sales position of where the 911 currently sat (which was below the 928). That new car turned out be the 944 and when released cost near as much as the 911. So in reality, if Furhmann would have had his way, the 911 would have been replaced (marketwise) with the 944, not the 928.

tv

I lived the 80's sports car market IN PERSON thru my High School friend's father and friends. That man was a car guy and a successful business owner who needed to put forth an image for business. He sold his 12 cyl XKE for a NEW 928 in 1982. After a few years he DOWNGRADED to a 911. WHY? money!

BINGO! The 928 WAS BIG BUX! This has everything to do with SALES figures and all the other crap mentioned means almost NOTHING!



Where do you get the idea that Porsche had LITTLE CAPITAL in the mid 80's? In 1984-86 they refreshed the 928 TWICE with the weak 85 4-valve and the S4! THEY ALSO BLEW 80 MILLION ON A PROP ENGINE! Schutz was a moron.

If you think the business man I knew was watching let alone taking buying cues from a silly movie, you are one weird guy. There WAS NO INTERNET back then, NO INVESTING like today, NO stock millionaires! Rich guys got rich by working their asses off for decades. That man worked and slept, period.


CASH! Personal INCOME! The man above bought the 928 for $40K in 82 maybe less in 1985 it would have been $56,000, TOO much even for him. They were still living large with a NEW 911 and a NEW Mercedes sedan in the driveway. 928's were for very wealthy people. NO car back then had more celebrity owners!

Drooman, seriously?? 1988 looks bad, No ****, October 1987 > BLACK MONDAY the economy COLLAPSED people were broke, the Dollar and DEUTSCHEMARK were all reversed. Same thing happened to Ferrari.

The businessman in my story had a younger friend who was a social climber but not a business owner, doing well but NOT RICH, he drove a 944, he wished he had a 928! A slightly older successful neighborhood friend of mine who in the 80's had made it to a high position in High Tech had a 944, he wished he had a 928! Steve Jobs had a 928! Doug Flutie had a 928. Do you get it? There was FAR less wealth back then! No dot com millionaires. A normal person would see a ferrari once a year and a lambo once a decade.

The business owner who was more like an uncle to me had me drive his new 911 into Boston for it's 1st service in 1987, inside this small showroom was a new Guards Red 928S4. That's another thing, fewer dealers with small showrooms. Again that goes to wealth in general. I told him about when I got back, he just chuckled, he wanted it but even at the same level he was in business he couldn't swing a 928 at now $80K. His wife said it was the best car they ever owned.

icsamerica

I think you were living something else. The 928 wasn't a sports car, it was and always had been positioned in the market as a Luxury GT.


What does the price have to do with anything? The SL500 had a higher MSRP than the 928 in the mid 80's and out sold the 928 two to 1.

The facts as they are widely understood. In 1980 Porsche lost money, Porsche earned a scant 4.5 million in 1981 and was nearly bankrupt by 1990. That's what lead to the shake up and Schutz, a German born american being hired as CEO in '81 and out by '90. Financial problems. Back in the 80's Porsche was a small company in financial trouble and barely had their own dealer network. Often Porsche's were sold along side VW's and Audi's. Those are the facts.

That "silly movie" is responsible for a 928 selling for nearly 2 million dollars about 1 year ago. That's 911 RS with racing history territory.
There was no investing back then? No millionaries? You are out of touch. Go watch the Movie "Wall Street" and get up to speed. Michael Milken earned 550 milliion in '87 alone. I'm kind'a sure he and many others weren't working all that hard and busting their asses as you have characterized it.

I started working on wall street in early '86 installing Seagate 20MB hard drives in IBM PC's and installing token ring adapter so the brokers could cut down on boot times and access and share their Lotus 1-2-3 spread sheets. It was a crazy time but after the crash my boss and I weren't installing computer parts on Wall Street any longer, it was landscaping during the week to make money and traveling to 'computer shows' with the landscaping van on the weekends to sell low cost 'clone' items to the burgeoning personal home computer market.

Slow down on the BLACK MONDAY rhetoric. There was no collapse. I lived through it. It was a difficult time in many ways. The DOW fully recovered in less than 2 years and had regained 75% of the '87 peek after 18 months. If you bought stocks in early '87 you were fully recovered by mid year '88.

You're taking a narrow view of a very complex set of circumstances by seeing them through the lens of one man's 2nd hand experience and in the process exhibiting myopathy that is demonstrated by your own factually incorrect statements. Foolish to carry on like that.