Scott Peterson

Envirosafe

I'm starting this thread to see what others experiences are of this stuff
1- Have you used it?
2- How did it work for you?
3- Would you use it?
I cleaned out my system completely and put mineral oil in, I was going to us R12 , till I choked on the price, but then found this stuff. I ordered a couple of cans, Vacuumed the system, put 2 6oz cans in, equivalent to 2# R12, My low pressure side runs at about 50psi and the high side runs at about 175 at 2000 rpm. Your not supposed to fill based on pressure with this stuff. Only by weight. In my '89 908grams of R12 is really close to 32oz which is the same as 2 - 6oz cans of this stuff. When I turn on the a/c you can barely tell when the compressor goes on. It uses so little horsepower. Driving around this week in almost 100 deg heat at 5000 feet of elevation. The a/c blows so cold you could make ice cubes in the car, LOL. It is truly cold. Plus it's really inexpensive, No license needed to buy or use it. Doesn't react with moisture in the system. Has bigger molecules than R12 so it should leak less. No need to change hoses to barrier hoses. And cheap, It's $64.00 for 12 - 1lb equivalent cans (6oz). Oh yea.. If you are into this sort of thing.. It's safe for the environment, no ozone depletion.

And yes, I do really know what this stuff is. Do your own research and the me what you think.

captainOCD

I tried a couple different of those propane refrigerants in my 928 at first. They were all terrible for me. Switched it to r134 and ester oil and it works great.

FredR

Scott,

Propane is an excellent refrigerant unfortunately it is also a source of tremendous heat when it catches fire. Given the way our compressors tend to suffer fugitive emissions it is a reasonable bet that propane fairs no better in the sealing department and the thought of that stuff floating around the engine bay with the heat that is present there not to mention sparks from decrepit ignition leads would do nothing positive for the muscles in my sphincter.

Many years ago a prominent 928 personality and good friend of mine went down that route and he well knew the risks - but alas that did not stop his GT from burning down. After that he figured it was not one of his better "project ideas". if you happen to have stumbled onto a refrigerant other than propane all I can say is it must have come from another universe.

The whole ozone thing is a bit of a scam as I am concerned. R12 for sure causes ozone issues but the problem was its use as a propellant for pong fume and the likes- straight into the atmosphere- the contribution from ac fugitive emissions being relatively small but it was all lumped in together unfortunately. Now it seems they are making a case to get rid of R134- doubtless equally dubious driven by economic greed rather than genuine concern for humanity but I dare say there is always a possibility such may happen.

The Forgotten On

Don't use it. Shops will outright refuse to touch your car if you have had a hydrocarbon based refrigerant in its system as it will contaminate their equipment and they cannot recycle what they already recovered.

Just convert it to R134 or stick to R12.

icsamerica

My perspective in regards to my 1986 928 is to just stick to R134a becasue it works well enough. So there's no good reason to accept even a small risk associated with a hydrocarbon based refrigerants. Some will argue the risk isn't all that small and I'm in that camp even though I have a difficult time lighting my BBQ from time to time.

I've converted many cars to R134a and the 928 seem better suited that most. The 928 has a rather large condenser and the Aux fan comes on with elevated high side pressures, this is a feature most R12 cars didn't have but it is a feature all R134a cars have by design.
I get the allure of a drop hydrocarbon but if you take the time to convert a 928 (or any car) properly one can get really good results with R134a. The marketing materials often highlight benefits of hydrocarbons such as higher performance and less wear-and-tear. Those claims are dubious and seem theatrical in nature to me. As a practical matter you can only get the vent temps down to 38 degrees or so before icing occurs and a properly done R134a conversion can get there even at idle on a hot day.

I have a 1993 BMW 750il. It was one of the first cars to use R134a. The A/C works amazing and cools exceptionally well even at ide on a hot day. And the car is black on black, That car is my benchmark, I have never been in any car new or otherwise that cools so well. The condenser large but not unusually so. What BMW did to get such great cooing was to use a large Aux fan, isolate hot water from the HVAC box very well and use ducts and well fitting foam to ensure excellent 1-direction flow across the condenser.

Here's a 1976 Jaguar car I converted to R134a. 41 degree vent temps at idle on a 91 degree day. My point. It can be done with R134a, no reason to accept even a small risk in my view.

I made a this video because of a similar thread over on the Jag forums where the exact same topic comes up with the usual and similar points brought up every year in June when the country goes on bake... R134a doesn't cool well and dropin's are a risk, etc..

captainOCD

I would add that in the high temps here (high 90s, low 100s) in the summer, the high side pressures with 134 were getting high when sitting idle for a bit. For some extra safety I put in a Mercedes combo high low pressure shutoff switch in place of the low only shutoff switch on the high side of the system.

icsamerica

Anyone else recall this?
https://rennlist.com/forums/928-foru...placement.html

Scott Peterson

Well I thought about the risks, And these were my thoughts. The ac lines and the fuel lines run right next to each other along the rocker panel and the passenger side fender well. The ac lines feel like they are way thicker than the fuel lines. Have you seen the thickness of the rubber fuel lines and the size and pressure they are supposed to take vs the ac line. The rubber ac lines are at least 3 times as thick and strong. We have fuel lines on the front of the engine and a pressure buffer that is not shielded at all. In an accident the 12oz of hydrocarbons are insignificant compared to the 15 gallons of fuel being supplied at 60psi by an electric fuel pump that does not have an impact relay, Which is then being pumped until it pumps all the fuel out of the tank.
Lets say someone hits you in the right front fender, It looks like the ac line will take more abuse than the fuel lines (Just an observation on my part)
The Envirosafe also has a higher hot plate ignition temperature than the new 1234yf refrigerant (like my wife's new BMW X7 has in it). If it does leak it won't catch fire on the hot exhaust any faster than my new BMW will.

captainOCD

If an a/c line bursts even with r12 or r134 the aerosolized oil poses a fire risk too.