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Injector opening times turns out to be hyper critical. The difference between an injector with an opening time of .8 milliseconds versus an injector with an opening time of 1.2 milliseconds requires a huge change in the duty cycle of the injector.
You can create/tune an LH chip around one injector, change that injector out for the same size injector with a different opening time, and need an entirely different LH chip.
This is why you should consult with the chip maker to see what injector he used to develop the chip and use that injector.
As I read in a previous thread, Ken's chips have a tolerance between various latency times, is that true? What margin of adaptation are we talking about?
As I read in a previous thread, Ken's chips have a tolerance between various latency times, is that true? What margin of adaptation are we talking about?
Again, Ken would ultimately be the best one to answer questions about his programming.
I would guess that latency times might be with-in the range for the O2 sensor system to correct the mixture, up to the 3/4 throttle position (where the O2 sensor is disregarded.)
After 3/4 throttle to full throttle, I do not see how there could be a correction for latency.
At that point, fuel delivery should be totally controlled by the mapping, which latency would affect.
I have seen that the reference 0280150947 type II is correct for Ken's chips, what I just found is that the cross reference for those type II is the one I have in type III 0280155715, is that correct? I'm messed 🤦♂️ 0280150947
As you can see, the 0280150947 comes out as a cross reference 🤔
As you can see from the data in your post there is no opening time mentioned. Why this is such a mystery is beyond me. High impedence injectors typically have a rsistance of about 16 ohms whereas low impedence about 2 ohms [FYI].
The computer can only set a total opening- start of event to finish of event. It takes time for the injector to open and typically this will be about 0.6 mS. So for that amount of time there will effectively be no flow. The injector opens and closes with each rpm. At idle with engine speed circa 600 rpms or 10 revs per second each rev takes 100 mS. when the engine speed is 6000 rpm each rev takes 10mS. The amount of fuel to be burnt is a function air flow and injector sizing limits the amount of fuel that can be passed. The industry standard is that when the injector needs to be open 85% of the rev time the injector is in effect maxxed out. This is what happens to the stock 19lb injectors and at around 5k pms they are maxxed out so the programming then switches such that the injector opens once for every two rpms so that it can stay open "longer". Needless to say the opening time eats into the time available for operation and the bigger that number the less fuel will flow for a given opening time. As GB pointed out, if your car is equipped with cats, it will also have an O2 sensor and that overwrites whatever the programming has told the injector to do until such time as the exhaust gas indicates that combustion air fuel ratio is at stoich [14.7]- this hold until the throttle is aout 75% open and when the full throttle switch contact is made the O2 sensor is ignored and more fuel is added to achieve max rated power at the given operating point. Thus if the injector opening time is not programmed correctly the mix will be weakened or enriched. The extent of the error will vary as the opening time varies from that of the injector used for the tune.
Starting gets even more complicated as the opening time changes with voltage and when the voltage drops during cranking the opening time increases noticeably thus why there is a fuelling correction during cold cranking- another reason why this parameter is important. Ken will understand this well as does Jim Corenham who helps support the Sharktuner program that I use. That you are a bit confused is to be expected. Anyone "not confused" is probably because they have no clue! so do not see the problem.
As you can see from the data in your post there is no opening time mentioned. Why this is such a mystery is beyond me. High impedence injectors typically have a rsistance of about 16 ohms whereas low impedence about 2 ohms [FYI].
The computer can only set a total opening- start of event to finish of event. It takes time for the injector to open and typically this will be about 0.6 mS. So for that amount of time there will effectively be no flow. The injector opens and closes with each rpm. At idle with engine speed circa 600 rpms or 10 revs per second each rev takes 100 mS. when the engine speed is 6000 rpm each rev takes 10mS. The amount of fuel to be burnt is a function air flow and injector sizing limits the amount of fuel that can be passed. The industry standard is that when the injector needs to be open 85% of the rev time the injector is in effect maxxed out. This is what happens to the stock 19lb injectors and at around 5k pms they are maxxed out so the programming then switches such that the injector opens once for every two rpms so that it can stay open "longer". Needless to say the opening time eats into the time available for operation and the bigger that number the less fuel will flow for a given opening time. As GB pointed out, if your car is equipped with cats, it will also have an O2 sensor and that overwrites whatever the programming has told the injector to do until such time as the exhaust gas indicates that combustion air fuel ratio is at stoich [14.7]- this hold until the throttle is aout 75% open and when the full throttle switch contact is made the O2 sensor is ignored and more fuel is added to achieve max rated power at the given operating point. Thus if the injector opening time is not programmed correctly the mix will be weakened or enriched. The extent of the error will vary as the opening time varies from that of the injector used for the tune.
Starting gets even more complicated as the opening time changes with voltage and when the voltage drops during cranking the opening time increases noticeably thus why there is a fuelling correction during cold cranking- another reason why this parameter is important. Ken will understand this well as does Jim Corenham who helps support the Sharktuner program that I use. That you are a bit confused is to be expected. Anyone "not confused" is probably because they have no clue! so do not see the problem.
Originally Posted by javiherdepa
I have seen that the reference 0280150947 type II is correct for Ken's chips, what I just found is that the cross reference for those type II is the one I have in type III 0280155715, is that correct? I'm messed 🤦♂️
As you can see, the 0280150947 comes out as a cross reference 🤔
The 0280150947 / F1TE-D5A injector was also sold by Ford Motorsport as their part# M9593-A302, and is well-known. The latency (opening-time) at our 3.8 bar fuel pressure 0.84 ms, a little quicker than stock.
The advertising for the 0280155715 injector lists the 0280150947 injector as a cross-reference, but they are different injectors: One is a skinny "Gen-III" style and the other is the older fat-body style. The opening-time for the 0280155715 injector is unknown, but there is no reason that it would be the same.
For example, for our 5.9L GT we use a "skinny" 30# injector, 0280155759 / M9593-BB302. The opening time is specified by Ford Motorsport as 1.20ms, and I have confirmed that with Sharktuner. The "fat body" 30# equivalent is 0280150945 / M9593-B302, opening time is also specified and is 0.71 ms-- a huge difference.
In this case, substituting one for the other, without re-tuning, would result in very poor performance and great risk to the motor. That is just an example, and may not apply to the "skinny" 24# injectors, but the characteristics of the 0280155715 are unknown.
The comments above about opening time are correct, that it primarily affects the idle and light-load operation where the LH does indeed "learn" from the O2-sensor and adapt.
But here's the problem: If you install an injector with a different opening-time, then the LH will learn during idle and normal driving, and adapt by increasing or decreasing the pulse-width to get the needed amount of fuel. And it will store this adaptation, and use it always. So as long as you stay in the operating range where the LH did the adaptation, then it will be correct.
BUT when you then go full-throttle or higher RPM-- where the "learning" is disabled-- the LH will continue to use the previous adaptation which will NOT be correct for high load. So if it "learned" that 20% less fuel was needed on the highway, then it will also reduce fuel by 20% at full-throttle. Or maybe increase, who knows? Neither is good, and insufficient fuel at full throttle is dangerous for the motor.
Originally Posted by javiherdepa
So based on all this and your experience and knowledge which would be the correct type 2 and type 3 injectors for Ken's LH chip?
If Ken tuned his chips for the 0280150947 injector, then you need to find the same injectors-- otherwise there is some risk. As said many times, if you want to consider a different injector then you need to ask Ken. And if you can't get an answer from Ken then it would be risky to proceed.
The 0280150947 / F1TE-D5A injector was also sold by Ford Motorsport as their part# M9593-A302, and is well-known. The latency (opening-time) at our 3.8 bar fuel pressure 0.84 ms, a little quicker than stock.
The advertising for the 0280155715 injector lists the 0280150947 injector as a cross-reference, but they are different injectors: One is a skinny "Gen-III" style and the other is the older fat-body style. The opening-time for the 0280155715 injector is unknown, but there is no reason that it would be the same.
For example, for our 5.9L GT we use a "skinny" 30# injector, 0280155759 / M9593-BB302. The opening time is specified by Ford Motorsport as 1.20ms, and I have confirmed that with Sharktuner. The "fat body" 30# equivalent is 0280150945 / M9593-B302, opening time is also specified and is 0.71 ms-- a huge difference.
In this case, substituting one for the other, without re-tuning, would result in very poor performance and great risk to the motor. That is just an example, and may not apply to the "skinny" 24# injectors, but the characteristics of the 0280155715 are unknown.
The comments above about opening time are correct, that it primarily affects the idle and light-load operation where the LH does indeed "learn" from the O2-sensor and adapt.
But here's the problem: If you install an injector with a different opening-time, then the LH will learn during idle and normal driving, and adapt by increasing or decreasing the pulse-width to get the needed amount of fuel. And it will store this adaptation, and use it always. So as long as you stay in the operating range where the LH did the adaptation, then it will be correct.
BUT when you then go full-throttle or higher RPM-- where the "learning" is disabled-- the LH will continue to use the previous adaptation which will NOT be correct for high load. So if it "learned" that 20% less fuel was needed on the highway, then it will also reduce fuel by 20% at full-throttle. Or maybe increase, who knows? Neither is good, and insufficient fuel at full throttle is dangerous for the motor.
If Ken tuned his chips for the 0280150947 injector, then you need to find the same injectors-- otherwise there is some risk. As said many times, if you want to consider a different injector then you need to ask Ken. And if you can't get an answer from Ken then it would be risky to proceed.
Hopefully Ken reads this thread and can shed light on the matter 🤞🙏
Because the magnetic coil is much larger in the "fat bodied" injectors, the latency times are dramatically quicker than the smaller bodied injectors (because the magnetic coil is much smaller.)
If an LH chip is designed around a small bodied injector (with a slower opening time), changing to a "fat bodied" injector would increase the actual open time. This would make the engine richer. While this might result in the loss of some performance, it would not "hurt" the engine.
Conversely:
If an LH chip is designed around a "fat bodied" injector (with a faster opening time), changing to a small bodied injector would decrease the actual open time. This would make the engine leaner.
In this case, .84ms compared to 1.14ms is a 40% difference in latency.
Is that significant? Yes.
Is that significant with Ken's LH chip? That's the mystery you are trying to solve.
And that totally depends on how much "extra fuel" Ken left at WOT.
Porsche "left" lots of extra fuel at WOT, to be safe under any potential circumstance. Yes, they gave up a few horsepower, but didn't want to ever "burn" an engine down, from a lean condition. All performance chip makers know this and lean the WOT fuel maps down, to gain back the few horsepower that Porsche "left on the table"....after all, the LH chip controls only fuel and making the engine leaner is the only "trick" a performance chip maker has, to increase horsepower.
Did Ken leave enough fuel at WOT for the change in latency?
Two pages and 26 posts later, the recommendation is still the same....
How did you buy the chips if you have no way of contacting @PorKen ?
WHERE you buy the injectors is just as important as the part number stamped on the side. The vast majority of injectors on eBay and many of the generic parts sellers around the internet are selling counterfeit injectors that could cause many issues with your engine. How much you paid for them can sometimes be a red flag.
How did you buy the chips if you have no way of contacting @PorKen ?
WHERE you buy the injectors is just as important as the part number stamped on the side. The vast majority of injectors on eBay and many of the generic parts sellers around the internet are selling counterfeit injectors that could cause many issues with your engine. How much you paid for them can sometimes be a red flag.
A shocking number of Bosh parts, from fuel pumps / injectors to even spark plugs, are in the parts stream around the world counterfeited.
I don't have Ken's contact since I bought them from MattiasH because he didn't install them on his s4 because he bought a sharkturner, as for the injectors, how do you know if they are fake?
WHERE you buy the injectors is just as important as the part number stamped on the side. The vast majority of injectors on eBay and many of the generic parts sellers around the internet are selling counterfeit injectors that could cause many issues with your engine. How much you paid for them can sometimes be a red flag
A shocking number of Bosh parts, from fuel pumps / injectors to even spark plugs, are in the parts stream around the world counterfeited.
Great point, Hacker!! I was scammed on some injectors that ended up being Chinese knockoffs. They had the correct part number et al, but no Bosch logo, much like the injectors that the OP is planning to use.
To all: Be very careful where you source your injectors.
05-11-2021, 05:18 PM
