Electrical issue, intermittent starting
05-11-2020, 03:13 PM
#16
There are probably (at least) dozens of photos of the individual grounds posted on Rennlist, and I think there is a single thread with images of each one in the various posts. Finding it may take a little research. Use Google - cleaning grounds rennlist 928 - then click the links and scroll through the posts for images or switch to Google images, you will find what you need. If not I guess just ask for individual images and wait for the replies. The grounds are brown wires, cleaning each one only takes seconds to do, once you find it and gain access to it. Here is a thread that is a start:
https://rennlist.com/forums/928-foru...-on-an-s4.html
While you are waiting for your parts and cleaning the grounds, clean the positive (+) battery terminal connector wires, there are small red wires there in addition to the main connector, then tighten them back in place very firmly. You will see brown ground wires in that area too to clean.
If you have a free second, turn the AC switch to on and the fan to high, radio too I suppose, and see if they are affected in some way like your dash warning lights when those don't come on. Does the fan and radio come on when you turn the key on (not all the way to start), but the dash lights don't? If the radio or AC fan is not functioning, like the pod lights are not, that points more favorably to an ignition switch issue.
Also, when turning the key to start try pushing it in slightly and / or wiggling it to see if that has an affect. Don't try so hard as to damage it though.
https://rennlist.com/forums/928-foru...-on-an-s4.html
While you are waiting for your parts and cleaning the grounds, clean the positive (+) battery terminal connector wires, there are small red wires there in addition to the main connector, then tighten them back in place very firmly. You will see brown ground wires in that area too to clean.
If you have a free second, turn the AC switch to on and the fan to high, radio too I suppose, and see if they are affected in some way like your dash warning lights when those don't come on. Does the fan and radio come on when you turn the key on (not all the way to start), but the dash lights don't? If the radio or AC fan is not functioning, like the pod lights are not, that points more favorably to an ignition switch issue.
Also, when turning the key to start try pushing it in slightly and / or wiggling it to see if that has an affect. Don't try so hard as to damage it though.
Last edited by Shark2626; 05-11-2020 at 03:28 PM.
05-11-2020, 03:41 PM
#17
Nordschleife Master
Welcome. My condolences on losing your dad.
I think it's great that you want to keep the car in the family. No better tribute to him.
It sounds like you plan on doing most of your own work. Good on you. They aren't too hard to work on, but finding a shop that knows how can be challenging. And paying someone else to do the work gets expensive fast.
I would strongly suggest reading the "New Visitor" sticky thread at the top of the forum. Tons of good info, including a diagram of the ground points being discussed above. As was noted, a thorough cleaning of those can often clear up a multitude of issues, especially if they haven't been taken care of in a while.
At 'first glance', your starting issue sounds like the ignition switch. They do go bad over time. But with the 'delayed reaction' part, it may well be the relays. Get the chart (there should be one in the car, on top of the CE panel cover, but they are often missing). Get a few '53' relays and replace the vital ones: Fuel Pump, EZK, LH, X-Bus. As was noted, there are a zillion cheap knockoffs out there. Aviod Amazon or E-Bay for this sort of thing. There is a list of 'trusted vendors' in the New Visitor sticky. You can be assured that they do NOT sell counterfeit stuff. Unfortunately, they are in the US. While I know Roger (928s R Us) ships all over the world, for basic stuff, the shipping & taxes/import duties may make sourcing locally a better choice. There are a few regulars in the UK. Maybe some of them can suggest a good source for you.
The voltage issue could be the ground strap. That's the cable that runs from the negative post on the battery to the chassis of the car. They are a woven braid of fine strand copper. The tend to go bad over time, yet still look fine. They will even show 'ok' with an ohm meter, but not be able to carry large amounts of current. If yours has never been replaced, I would suggest replacing it just because it's old. Otherwise, peel the insulation back a bit and see how it looks. If it 'goes green' under the insulation, replace it.
The 'jumper cable from the battery to the body of the car' test is a check of that ground strap. The next time the voltage 'goes away', try that.
I have found this board to be invaluable in keeping my car on the road. I have yet to see a problem (my own or someone else's) that someone on here can't solve.
But the 'usual suspects' are REALLY slipping.
16 posts and nobody's started the:
THIS...
I think it's great that you want to keep the car in the family. No better tribute to him.
It sounds like you plan on doing most of your own work. Good on you. They aren't too hard to work on, but finding a shop that knows how can be challenging. And paying someone else to do the work gets expensive fast.
I would strongly suggest reading the "New Visitor" sticky thread at the top of the forum. Tons of good info, including a diagram of the ground points being discussed above. As was noted, a thorough cleaning of those can often clear up a multitude of issues, especially if they haven't been taken care of in a while.
At 'first glance', your starting issue sounds like the ignition switch. They do go bad over time. But with the 'delayed reaction' part, it may well be the relays. Get the chart (there should be one in the car, on top of the CE panel cover, but they are often missing). Get a few '53' relays and replace the vital ones: Fuel Pump, EZK, LH, X-Bus. As was noted, there are a zillion cheap knockoffs out there. Aviod Amazon or E-Bay for this sort of thing. There is a list of 'trusted vendors' in the New Visitor sticky. You can be assured that they do NOT sell counterfeit stuff. Unfortunately, they are in the US. While I know Roger (928s R Us) ships all over the world, for basic stuff, the shipping & taxes/import duties may make sourcing locally a better choice. There are a few regulars in the UK. Maybe some of them can suggest a good source for you.
The voltage issue could be the ground strap. That's the cable that runs from the negative post on the battery to the chassis of the car. They are a woven braid of fine strand copper. The tend to go bad over time, yet still look fine. They will even show 'ok' with an ohm meter, but not be able to carry large amounts of current. If yours has never been replaced, I would suggest replacing it just because it's old. Otherwise, peel the insulation back a bit and see how it looks. If it 'goes green' under the insulation, replace it.
The 'jumper cable from the battery to the body of the car' test is a check of that ground strap. The next time the voltage 'goes away', try that.
I have found this board to be invaluable in keeping my car on the road. I have yet to see a problem (my own or someone else's) that someone on here can't solve.
But the 'usual suspects' are REALLY slipping.
16 posts and nobody's started the:
THIS...
05-12-2020, 02:30 AM
#20
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There are probably (at least) dozens of photos of the individual grounds posted on Rennlist, and I think there is a single thread with images of each one in the various posts. Finding it may take a little research. Use Google - cleaning grounds rennlist 928 - then click the links and scroll through the posts for images or switch to Google images, you will find what you need. If not I guess just ask for individual images and wait for the replies. The grounds are brown wires, cleaning each one only takes seconds to do, once you find it and gain access to it. Here is a thread that is a start:
https://rennlist.com/forums/928-foru...-on-an-s4.html
While you are waiting for your parts and cleaning the grounds, clean the positive (+) battery terminal connector wires, there are small red wires there in addition to the main connector, then tighten them back in place very firmly. You will see brown ground wires in that area too to clean.
If you have a free second, turn the AC switch to on and the fan to high, radio too I suppose, and see if they are affected in some way like your dash warning lights when those don't come on. Does the fan and radio come on when you turn the key on (not all the way to start), but the dash lights don't? If the radio or AC fan is not functioning, like the pod lights are not, that points more favorably to an ignition switch issue.
Also, when turning the key to start try pushing it in slightly and / or wiggling it to see if that has an affect. Don't try so hard as to damage it though.
https://rennlist.com/forums/928-foru...-on-an-s4.html
While you are waiting for your parts and cleaning the grounds, clean the positive (+) battery terminal connector wires, there are small red wires there in addition to the main connector, then tighten them back in place very firmly. You will see brown ground wires in that area too to clean.
If you have a free second, turn the AC switch to on and the fan to high, radio too I suppose, and see if they are affected in some way like your dash warning lights when those don't come on. Does the fan and radio come on when you turn the key on (not all the way to start), but the dash lights don't? If the radio or AC fan is not functioning, like the pod lights are not, that points more favorably to an ignition switch issue.
Also, when turning the key to start try pushing it in slightly and / or wiggling it to see if that has an affect. Don't try so hard as to damage it though.
I’ve had a good read on the ground points, I’ll make this my weekend job Before my other parts turn up,
the air con and radio function correctly at position 2 of the ignition switch, and also work fine on position 3 when the dash lights are dim.
Wigglong the key lightly makes no change but sometimes turning it backwards very slightly can bring the dark lights to life, so possibly this position contact is starting to fail on the switch,
hopefully this weekend I can fit the bits and have the culprit identified,
thank you for your help
05-12-2020, 02:38 AM
#21
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Welcome. My condolences on losing your dad.
I think it's great that you want to keep the car in the family. No better tribute to him.
It sounds like you plan on doing most of your own work. Good on you. They aren't too hard to work on, but finding a shop that knows how can be challenging. And paying someone else to do the work gets expensive fast.
I would strongly suggest reading the "New Visitor" sticky thread at the top of the forum. Tons of good info, including a diagram of the ground points being discussed above. As was noted, a thorough cleaning of those can often clear up a multitude of issues, especially if they haven't been taken care of in a while.
At 'first glance', your starting issue sounds like the ignition switch. They do go bad over time. But with the 'delayed reaction' part, it may well be the relays. Get the chart (there should be one in the car, on top of the CE panel cover, but they are often missing). Get a few '53' relays and replace the vital ones: Fuel Pump, EZK, LH, X-Bus. As was noted, there are a zillion cheap knockoffs out there. Aviod Amazon or E-Bay for this sort of thing. There is a list of 'trusted vendors' in the New Visitor sticky. You can be assured that they do NOT sell counterfeit stuff. Unfortunately, they are in the US. While I know Roger (928s R Us) ships all over the world, for basic stuff, the shipping & taxes/import duties may make sourcing locally a better choice. There are a few regulars in the UK. Maybe some of them can suggest a good source for you.
The voltage issue could be the ground strap. That's the cable that runs from the negative post on the battery to the chassis of the car. They are a woven braid of fine strand copper. The tend to go bad over time, yet still look fine. They will even show 'ok' with an ohm meter, but not be able to carry large amounts of current. If yours has never been replaced, I would suggest replacing it just because it's old. Otherwise, peel the insulation back a bit and see how it looks. If it 'goes green' under the insulation, replace it.
The 'jumper cable from the battery to the body of the car' test is a check of that ground strap. The next time the voltage 'goes away', try that.
I have found this board to be invaluable in keeping my car on the road. I have yet to see a problem (my own or someone else's) that someone on here can't solve.
But the 'usual suspects' are REALLY slipping.
16 posts and nobody's started the:
THIS...
I think it's great that you want to keep the car in the family. No better tribute to him.
It sounds like you plan on doing most of your own work. Good on you. They aren't too hard to work on, but finding a shop that knows how can be challenging. And paying someone else to do the work gets expensive fast.
I would strongly suggest reading the "New Visitor" sticky thread at the top of the forum. Tons of good info, including a diagram of the ground points being discussed above. As was noted, a thorough cleaning of those can often clear up a multitude of issues, especially if they haven't been taken care of in a while.
At 'first glance', your starting issue sounds like the ignition switch. They do go bad over time. But with the 'delayed reaction' part, it may well be the relays. Get the chart (there should be one in the car, on top of the CE panel cover, but they are often missing). Get a few '53' relays and replace the vital ones: Fuel Pump, EZK, LH, X-Bus. As was noted, there are a zillion cheap knockoffs out there. Aviod Amazon or E-Bay for this sort of thing. There is a list of 'trusted vendors' in the New Visitor sticky. You can be assured that they do NOT sell counterfeit stuff. Unfortunately, they are in the US. While I know Roger (928s R Us) ships all over the world, for basic stuff, the shipping & taxes/import duties may make sourcing locally a better choice. There are a few regulars in the UK. Maybe some of them can suggest a good source for you.
The voltage issue could be the ground strap. That's the cable that runs from the negative post on the battery to the chassis of the car. They are a woven braid of fine strand copper. The tend to go bad over time, yet still look fine. They will even show 'ok' with an ohm meter, but not be able to carry large amounts of current. If yours has never been replaced, I would suggest replacing it just because it's old. Otherwise, peel the insulation back a bit and see how it looks. If it 'goes green' under the insulation, replace it.
The 'jumper cable from the battery to the body of the car' test is a check of that ground strap. The next time the voltage 'goes away', try that.
I have found this board to be invaluable in keeping my car on the road. I have yet to see a problem (my own or someone else's) that someone on here can't solve.
But the 'usual suspects' are REALLY slipping.
16 posts and nobody's started the:
THIS...
yes I’ll certainly be keeping the car, sounds odd but working on the car brings good memories of my father so I enjoy doing it.
ill be doing all I can myself, mechanically most jobs are no problem as I have access to a range of engineering equipment, the electrical side is a steep learning curve for me
ive ordered some relays from “design9111” over here. not used these guys before but hopefully they will be ok.
mill take a look at Roger (928r us) for future parts too.
battery strap I’ll check that out and renew if I can source one.
thank you all for your help, you guys have been invaluable already, sorry I sound so novice, but being honest I am completely new to this car so all your help is really appreciated,
05-12-2020, 04:05 PM
#22
Nordschleife Master
thank you,
yes I’ll certainly be keeping the car, sounds odd but working on the car brings good memories of my father so I enjoy doing it.
ill be doing all I can myself, mechanically most jobs are no problem as I have access to a range of engineering equipment, the electrical side is a steep learning curve for me
ive ordered some relays from “design9111” over here. not used these guys before but hopefully they will be ok.
mill take a look at Roger (928r us) for future parts too.
battery strap I’ll check that out and renew if I can source one.
thank you all for your help, you guys have been invaluable already, sorry I sound so novice, but being honest I am completely new to this car so all your help is really appreciated,
yes I’ll certainly be keeping the car, sounds odd but working on the car brings good memories of my father so I enjoy doing it.
ill be doing all I can myself, mechanically most jobs are no problem as I have access to a range of engineering equipment, the electrical side is a steep learning curve for me
ive ordered some relays from “design9111” over here. not used these guys before but hopefully they will be ok.
mill take a look at Roger (928r us) for future parts too.
battery strap I’ll check that out and renew if I can source one.
thank you all for your help, you guys have been invaluable already, sorry I sound so novice, but being honest I am completely new to this car so all your help is really appreciated,
It sounds more like a fitting tribute to him.
Many of us enjoy working on our cars, Few of us have the connection to the car that you do.
The electrical knowledge you need to work on the car is actually pretty basic. While there are electronics, they're all independent systems. Generally, if one of them goes out, you replace or rebuild the box. Everything else is just wires, motors, switches and connections. 90%+ of what you need to do can be accomplished with a standard multi-meter and a small soldering iron.
No worries about being new and not knowing much.
We all started there.
I friend of mine has a quote I've stolen a bunch of times:
There's no need to apologize for your ignorance, unless you do nothing to correct it.
And you're right about this place being invaluable.
Many of us would not be able to keep our cars on the road without the knowledge of the folks on here and their willingness to share it.
You mentioned that the a couple systems work when the ignition switch is turned, and that wiggling it could make the cluster light up.
That's a classic sign that the switch is faulty. There are several contacts inside the swtich. It sounds like some are still working, but not all of them.
One suggestion I have made before is to spend some time just skimming through the forum. Go back page by page and read threads that look like they might be interesting.
There was one a couple weeks ago about repairing the the ignition switch rather than replacing it. There was a fella who couldn't source a new one due to the pandemic and tried to disassemble, repair & reassemble his old one. He was successful, IIRC.
Edit to add: Thread here:
https://rennlist.com/forums/928-foru...i-have-to.html
05-12-2020, 05:05 PM
#23
Rennlist Member
Easy to temporarily hardwire the pump to see if the issue is resolved. If it starts then you can work backwards.
05-13-2020, 02:42 PM
#24
Rennlist Member
Relay, Relay, Relay in the words of the immortal Jim Bailey.
Replace the ignition relay, the fuel pump relay and the fuel injection relay before you do anything else. They are cheap, easy to replace and go bad.
Replace the ignition relay, the fuel pump relay and the fuel injection relay before you do anything else. They are cheap, easy to replace and go bad.
05-17-2020, 07:26 PM
#25
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Hi everyone.
Thankyou for all of your replies and help with my car issue.
This weekend I have carried out many jobs on the car.
firstly fitted a new ignition switch, which cured my intermittent start and electrical problems listed in this thread.
I’m so pleased as I was worrying I would be chasing the problem 1 part at a time.
I have also cleaned all ground points, and fitted new relays (53’s).
so fingers crossed the electrics are now all good to go. Thanks to you guys for you help and advice.
on from there I’ve also removed the power steering rack for a rebuild. (Leaking oil) and fitted new front wheel bearings, so I am gradually starting to become familiar with the cars set up
thank you all
Thankyou for all of your replies and help with my car issue.
This weekend I have carried out many jobs on the car.
firstly fitted a new ignition switch, which cured my intermittent start and electrical problems listed in this thread.
I’m so pleased as I was worrying I would be chasing the problem 1 part at a time.
I have also cleaned all ground points, and fitted new relays (53’s).
so fingers crossed the electrics are now all good to go. Thanks to you guys for you help and advice.
on from there I’ve also removed the power steering rack for a rebuild. (Leaking oil) and fitted new front wheel bearings, so I am gradually starting to become familiar with the cars set up
thank you all
05-18-2020, 04:43 PM
#27
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funny you say that...
Ive been trying to upload a couple of photos but I seem to be having issues, I wondered if I had to be a member for so long before I was able to upload,
I’ll have another go 😄
05-18-2020, 04:47 PM
#28
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here is my fathers car
it’s going to be cherished forever.
the more I work on it the more I enjoy And respect why you guys love these cars, it really is a well built and an inspirational car.
05-18-2020, 04:52 PM
#29
Rennlist Member
That's beautiful, Kevin.
Maybe someday my son will cherish my car in a similar way. I am a little doubtful, because even though he is a car guy, his tastes are not quite the same. He appreciates these cars, but he likes other cars more. You are carrying on a wonderful tradition for your father.
Thanks,
Dave
Maybe someday my son will cherish my car in a similar way. I am a little doubtful, because even though he is a car guy, his tastes are not quite the same. He appreciates these cars, but he likes other cars more. You are carrying on a wonderful tradition for your father.
Thanks,
Dave
05-18-2020, 05:06 PM
#30
Team Owner
Well done son !