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The car is a 5-speed, and I believe the starter relay is only found on automatic cars When I looked up the relay on the schematics, in the position is a metal wire bridge. Unless I am mistaken?
No, you are not mistaken.
Originally Posted by ajc283
It seems to happen randomly, cold or hot. This morning I tried to start the car and got the solenoid click. Maybe I should find a used starter and swap this back into the car. I have read posts where people have had issues with these "rebuilt" Bosch units...has anyone had the same random start/ no start/ issues with the "rebuilt" bosch units?
Have you read about two, or even one Bosch remanufactured starters failing straight out of the box? I know its natural to blame the starter when the car won't start, but...
You have tested almost everything, the car even started with the yellow wire at the jump post. So it really only leaves the possibilities of:
1. Poorly connected or corroded / dirty connectors to the starter?
2. A battery that works sometimes but not every time? I tend to favor this because every time you work on the car you get three good starts and then nothing, so can I assume that the cbattery goes back on the charger until sometime later when you work on the car again?
3. Failed wiring somewhere?
There are not many things involved in this particular system.
The easiest and least invasive thing to look at first is to simply have the battery tested at Walmart, if you have one nearby. Walmart's test equipment is superior to auto parts stores.
Have you read about two, or even one Bosch remanufactured starters failing straight out of the box? I know its natural to blame the starter when the car won't start, but...
You have tested almost everything, the car even started with the yellow wire at the jump post. So it really only leaves the possibilities of:
1. Poorly connected or corroded / dirty connectors to the starter?
2. A battery that works sometimes but not every time? I tend to favor this because every time you work on the car you get three good starts and then nothing, so can I assume that the cbattery goes back on the charger until sometime later when you work on the car again?
3. Failed wiring somewhere?
There are not many things involved in this particular system.
The easiest and least invasive thing to look at first is to simply have the battery tested at Walmart, if you have one nearby. Walmart's test equipment is superior to auto parts stores.
I completely agree with you. In fact I have been noticing that every time I do get the car to start, it has been after the battery has been trickled for some time. I replaced the battery about 1 year ago with a smaller unit from Advance Auto Parts because they didn't have the larger original size. The details on my battery are as following: Autocraft Silver type 41-2 CCA 650, CA 813 and Battery capacity 110. I saved the original Napa Battery type 49, CCA 900, and CA 1080. I am probably guessing the newer battery may have went bad, and/or doesn't have the cranking amps. I will take the battery back to Advance and have them load test it this week and followup here. Any recommendations on batteries? Anyone have issues with finding an original type 49?
Have you read about two, or even one Bosch remanufactured starters failing straight out of the box? I know its natural to blame the starter when the car won't start, but...
You have tested almost everything, the car even started with the yellow wire at the jump post. So it really only leaves the possibilities of:
1. Poorly connected or corroded / dirty connectors to the starter?
2. A battery that works sometimes but not every time? I tend to favor this because every time you work on the car you get three good starts and then nothing, so can I assume that the cbattery goes back on the charger until sometime later when you work on the car again?
3. Failed wiring somewhere?
There are not many things involved in this particular system.
The easiest and least invasive thing to look at first is to simply have the battery tested at Walmart, if you have one nearby. Walmart's test equipment is superior to auto parts stores.
To followup on your other points:
1. The connections at the starter were heavily and thoroughly cleaned to shiny metal with a brass metal brush.
2. Battery???
3. It is possible to have a bad or shorted wire somewhere? Any guesses from past experience as to where the wiring could worn through or faulty?
AJ sorry what year is your car please? For some reason I thought you had an 87 S4
EDIT I found it in post 32 you have a 78 so disregard the suggestion to replace the starter relay.
Have you touched the # 14 pin to the hot post?
This is the pin furthest forward and closest to the right fender in the 14 pin connector.
NOTE this will run the starter so make sure its in park or neutral if a 5 speed
The details on my battery are as following: Autocraft Silver type 41-2 CCA 650, CA 813 and Battery capacity 110. I saved the original Napa Battery type 49, CCA 900, and CA 1080.
That's a big difference in cranking amps. I'm thinking your battery isn't great, but there's a simple way to test that. When it doesn't start, hook up another battery or another vehicle with jumper cables and then see if it starts. If it does, it point to the battery not supplying enough voltage or amperage as that's the only thing yiu would have changed in this experiment.
Clean the connections, claen the grounds, clean the other connections. battery after the connections.
Here is a history of my problem. Previous to my failing starting system, my car was running well. About 3 months ago I had a starter that wouldn't turn off after the key went into the 'off' position. So I proceeded to change the starter thinking the solenoid went bad. Here is a list of what I have done so far on this '78 928:
1. Replaced the starter twice with (2) rebuilt Bosch units (2 months ago, 1 month ago)
2. Cleaned and replaced ground strap with new, cleaned and replaced negative terminal to body ground, cleaned 14-pin connection, cleaned all wires going to starter (2-3 weeks ago)
3. Replaced both 0.4, 0.6 ohm resistors with new (2 weeks ago)
4. Battery replaced with smaller size (1 year ago)
5. Replaced Ignition with new (1 week ago)
Car will intermittently start, otherwise I get the solenoid click. Over the next several days I will try and determine if the battery is a problem and look over the grounding connections, starter connections again. I will report my symptoms/findings over the next few days. Have I missed anything here? I feel we are making progress with the problem, but I want the car to reliably start every time; not get stuck with a solenoid click somewhere...lol. I appreciate all your help guys!!! Persistence will solve this issue.
When was the CE panel refresh done?
Large battery should be installed and the correct hold down installed so the POS terminal doesnt hit the lid
Where is the car kept?
inside/ outside. mostly dry or mostly wet.?
Did you ever touch the rear window defroster ****?
it has 2 operations.
pressing it turns on a timer that will shut off after 10 mins?
turning it CW will run it at reduced power for as long as its turned on.
please answer these questions,
AND post a picture of your engine
When was the CE panel refresh done?
Large battery should be installed and the correct hold down installed so the POS terminal doesnt hit the lid
Where is the car kept?
inside/ outside. mostly dry or mostly wet.?
Did you ever touch the rear window defroster ****?
it has 2 operations.
pressing it turns on a timer that will shut off after 10 mins?
turning it CW will run it at reduced power for as long as its turned on.
please answer these questions,
AND post a picture of your engine
Update: I had both my old battery group 49 and my new battery tested type 41-2 and both were in good shape on load testing and CA testing. To answer your questions:
1. Car is stored in my climate controlled garage, low humidity around 65 degrees all year. I have owned the car for 23 years. I pulled the engine about 15 years ago and rebuilt it with around 107k mileage, total body respray and restoration on car about 20 years ago.
2. I have messed with the rear window defroster and it may be in the 'on' position absolutely. I will check. How will this affect starting....battery draw??
3. I have never completely taken the CE panel apart to clean. But I have removed most of the fuses, cleaned the metal contacts and such...maybe this is my next step?
I will attach a few photos.
Thats a clean garage well done,
SO did you get the 928 because it has the same firing order as the Mustangs?
NOTE disconnect the battery before you attempt to work on any parts of the electrical system,
The CE panel should get a service of Deoxit 100 pull each fuse inspect for corrosion put on the Deoxit 100 then put the fuse back in,
same for each relay any relay that has corroded pins should be opened and checked for internal corrosion.
The defroster relay has done funny things to these cars like when you turn off the key the engine keeps running,
this usually happens after the defroster has been turned on by pushing the **** in , this starts a timing relay
the relay could be sticking and not turning off.
The **** could be sticking in its bore after the pod has been recovered or the defrost **** could have been turned CW to always be on
The 928 was my first sports car! Mustangs, I have had plenty...they are cheap to repair and fun to modify and drag race! Otherwise, my fox body cars ride like too stiff and cant handle very well, but my kids love them!
I will surely investigate the defroster and the CE panel. I do remember pulling a relay and having some wires come with it, I quickly placed it back to hopefully not have a problem...it was a mistake I'm sure on these old cars. I will order some Deoxit. As a side note, I also have a rather extensive custom stereo installed (hidden), included a large amplifier and separate powered subwoofer...I will also remove these from the circuit for further testing. Also, I have a spark when connecting the positive terminal on the battery. So, I am guessing a draw, short, or problem somewhere?? Could this be my defroster being in the 'on' or possibly shorted position?
I may need a few days to find the time to reply back and sort these trials. I am also in the medical field and I start seeing patient's tomorrow so time will be more limited for me. I WILL follow up later this week when I have sorted these steps.
Many thanks!
Anthony
The 928 was my first sports car! Mustangs, I have had plenty...they are cheap to repair and fun to modify and drag race! Otherwise, my fox body cars ride like too stiff and cant handle very well, but my kids love them!
I will surely investigate the defroster and the CE panel. I do remember pulling a relay and having some wires come with it, I quickly placed it back to hopefully not have a problem...it was a mistake I'm sure on these old cars. I will order some Deoxit. As a side note, I also have a rather extensive custom stereo installed (hidden), included a large amplifier and separate powered subwoofer...I will also remove these from the circuit for further testing. Also, I have a spark when connecting the positive terminal on the battery. So, I am guessing a draw, short, or problem somewhere?? Could this be my defroster being in the 'on' or possibly shorted position?
I may need a few days to find the time to reply back and sort these trials. I am also in the medical field and I start seeing patient's tomorrow so time will be more limited for me. I WILL follow up later this week when I have sorted these steps.
Many thanks!
Anthony
you should be disconnecting the ground first to cut battery power
\ Reconnecting the ground last to restore battery power.
NOTE thius is done at the rear grounding point at the chassis ground.
NOTE any amps or other stereo equipment will cause a draw,
this will also make a bigger than normal spark when connecting the battery ground strap.
NOTE always remove the ground strap before working on any electrical system of the 928,
otherwise you can let the Lucas smoke out of the wires
So i received a fresh starter and replaced the old one. From the pictures it doesn't really look like it necessarily needed another starter, but when i went to go start the car with the new one there was a major difference in how quickly it turned over the engine, perhaps the old one was just tired or full of gunk? The old starter took about 3-4 seconds to start the car where as the new starter seemed almost instantaneously, within 1-2 seconds. Hopefully this puts my mind at ease when driving it to work for now on, but there are many other things to work on still anyways.
I also took a few pictures of the inside of the housing for the flywheel. Do you guys notice anything that might seem amiss or damaged in there? Thanks for the help. sorry the pics are so huge. Also, to those that are attempting to replace their starter, they are heavy as hell. I would've gone with the high torque type if i had the extra money, but maybe next time.
04-26-2020, 12:27 PM
