'Ring lap in a Porsche...
03-11-2004 | 03:21 PM
#61
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From: saratoga, ca
Motorcycles??? com'mon, hardly a comparison. we are talking about drifting like the stuff on the "Ring " video. modern superbikes are doing some of the car drifting IM talking about. 4 wheel drifts, and the bikes do it with 2 wheels and it is fast!@!. more of a controled high speed slide, than a drift. wanna see a drift, see the "ring" video. wanna see a 4 wheel drift. watch the road racers hit the kink at Road America at 140mph or turn 1 at sears at 120mph. None of the best drivers around will ever step out the rear end intentionally approaching a turn to gain a better exit angle.
also, not to be confused with overcoming understeer. again, as I said before , after my hit at Laguna 2 years ago, i was able to over come a NASTY understeer due to my rear toe being crunched in, by inducing some oversteer with excess trail braking and extra gas, but it was hardly "drifting" .
MK
also, not to be confused with overcoming understeer. again, as I said before , after my hit at Laguna 2 years ago, i was able to over come a NASTY understeer due to my rear toe being crunched in, by inducing some oversteer with excess trail braking and extra gas, but it was hardly "drifting" .
MK
Originally posted by bcdavis
No expert opinion here, but I do know that in motorcycle road racing, for a time, all the riders who dominated were very percise, claen, and no wild stuff. But then a batch of dirt track guys got into the game, and they were significantly faster. The only downside, was that if it was a long race, their tires would wear out, and the more "controlled" riders would gain lost ground at the end of the race. But the guys that were able to drift through corners at a higher speed would usually have faster lap times. But at the cost of their tires...
No expert opinion here, but I do know that in motorcycle road racing, for a time, all the riders who dominated were very percise, claen, and no wild stuff. But then a batch of dirt track guys got into the game, and they were significantly faster. The only downside, was that if it was a long race, their tires would wear out, and the more "controlled" riders would gain lost ground at the end of the race. But the guys that were able to drift through corners at a higher speed would usually have faster lap times. But at the cost of their tires...
03-11-2004 | 03:48 PM
#62
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Joined: Feb 2003
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From: saratoga, ca
see my inserts:>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>MK
Originally posted by Pierre Martins
Mark, I'm going to try and explain myself once more, for the sake of clarity.
In one of your previous posts you reckon - "I would have to say, Im one of the best drivers around running sub par equip". What kind of a smug statement is that? Haven't you ever heard the word "modesty"? Perhaps you're the best grip style driver out there, but since you're so one-track minded about grip, what do you have to say about drivers like these -
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> i have pride in what i have been able to do with a much lesser platform at all of the races ive been at over the last 7 years. over 100 race days! Its helped me be a better driver running a less than professionally set up car. however, I think the car is set up pretty well, but it is almost 20 years old now. to finish in the field of Porsche GT3cup cars, right in the middle of the pack on any given PCA weekend, i think shows the
limit of which im pushing the platform. Anderson is also pushing the limit, running close to the same times as factory teams, in a slapped together platform (nothing taken away from his set up efforts, but most is hit and miss , compared to the Factory Audi team for example)
Mark Donnehue, Gilles Villeneuve, Jody Scheckter. They were "drifters". You say they're all wrong and you know better?
>>>>>>> they dont drift like the "ring" videos show , by any streatch.
Picture this - You're on a short straight leading up to a tight off camber left hander, followed immediatley by a right hander that opens up into a long uphill straight. The esses at Kyalami. The car you're in understeers. Braking and setup entering the first tight left hander are less important than exit speed leading onto the straight, where you need terminal speed, especially climbing uphill.
In this particular scenario conventional grip style is counter productive going into the left hander, because you eventually compromise exit speed leading onto the straight that follows the next corner. So you pitch tha bastard, steer with the throttle, make sure you don't break your momentum to keep up corner speed and set yourself up with higher exit speed after you apex the 2nd corner, by widening the arc of your line to stop wheelspin and find drive onto the straight.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>have to disagree. ESPECIALLY, on compound turn sequences, you want your back end as inline as possible, becuase, the momentum the rear will have when it snaps back in set up for the next opposite turn, will make the swing even wilder. I agree, that some throttle steering is needed and helpful and probably often used even though I dont give it much thought in those conditions, but it is hardly drifting. Lets define drifting. the art of stepping out the rear end before a turn to allow for maximum slide, counter steer , and off line yaw angle. this is not fast. it never is. show it to me this season with any driver and Ill buy you that beer (long distance)
What's more important? Grip style under braking into the first left hander? Or higher terminal speed out of the right hander onto the straight? The latter for sure. Whatever you lose under braking you make up ten fold with higher terminal speed coming onto the next straight.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>thats the question. ive seen a lot of differerent lines through these types of turns, and I would say, most of the exit speeds are pretty close. Ive seen my advantage by running up to looser cars, before the first turn and riding their loose tails right out of the series of turns.
Your right in concept. you want to not sacrafice exit speed , by any technique through the series of turns. In fact, it can be quite the opposite of a drift. a late brake, good planted line through the turn can allow for an earlier application of power on the exit. we have lots of turns as you describe out here. never seen anyone use a drift to get through them.
Smooth, grip style driving is the fastest way around a race track, that's a given. I don't disagree with that. But there are occasional exceptions where you need drifting. At some tracks you may not require drifting at all, other tracks you may need to apply it in one or two corners, to avoid breaking your momentum and maintain your exit speed.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>sometimes some wrestling around of the car is needed and it can be very abrupt and hardly smooth. but generally, smooth and consistant is best.
That is an advanced art and skill you're obviously not familiar with (yet). You're dead against drifting, but you're never too old to learn, so get off your "Im one of the best drivers" pedestal and open your mind buddy.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>The reason Im turning the times of one of the better drivers we all know Mark Anderson, in a car with 1.5 liters less engine a few years ago, is that ive been a student of the sport. show me one hot lap in any race by any pro that is using a drift to set the car for a series of off/on cambered turns, and Ill evaluate it. until then, your descriptions make no sense. and again, If I saw you pitch your car in a drift to set up for some combination turns, I would be by you in a heart beat.
I'm learning all the time and it's fun. Perhaps you can teach me some stuff, and I could teach you some stuff if and when you get here. We'll have fun for sure, but I still think I'm gonna whip your *** buddy, he-he-he
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>hey, always up for a contest!! thats why I do this stuff. but make no mistake, I do my homework! Its not hours and hours of practice, its hours and hours of PERFECT practice.
Hey, it is all in fun. Im competitive and cant wait to get in the fight again. I can drift if I want. its fun. im not that bad at it either, but its a little harder on hot stickies too! however, my toyo RA1s are not bad for drifting, but just not quite as sticky as DOTs, but they love 4 wheel drifts and that is used by all the American Sedan race class cars out here as their spec tire.
Mk
Cheers,
Pierre.
ps - I'll post pics and specs of my car soon.
Mark, I'm going to try and explain myself once more, for the sake of clarity.
In one of your previous posts you reckon - "I would have to say, Im one of the best drivers around running sub par equip". What kind of a smug statement is that? Haven't you ever heard the word "modesty"? Perhaps you're the best grip style driver out there, but since you're so one-track minded about grip, what do you have to say about drivers like these -
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> i have pride in what i have been able to do with a much lesser platform at all of the races ive been at over the last 7 years. over 100 race days! Its helped me be a better driver running a less than professionally set up car. however, I think the car is set up pretty well, but it is almost 20 years old now. to finish in the field of Porsche GT3cup cars, right in the middle of the pack on any given PCA weekend, i think shows the
limit of which im pushing the platform. Anderson is also pushing the limit, running close to the same times as factory teams, in a slapped together platform (nothing taken away from his set up efforts, but most is hit and miss , compared to the Factory Audi team for example)
Mark Donnehue, Gilles Villeneuve, Jody Scheckter. They were "drifters". You say they're all wrong and you know better?
>>>>>>> they dont drift like the "ring" videos show , by any streatch.
Picture this - You're on a short straight leading up to a tight off camber left hander, followed immediatley by a right hander that opens up into a long uphill straight. The esses at Kyalami. The car you're in understeers. Braking and setup entering the first tight left hander are less important than exit speed leading onto the straight, where you need terminal speed, especially climbing uphill.
In this particular scenario conventional grip style is counter productive going into the left hander, because you eventually compromise exit speed leading onto the straight that follows the next corner. So you pitch tha bastard, steer with the throttle, make sure you don't break your momentum to keep up corner speed and set yourself up with higher exit speed after you apex the 2nd corner, by widening the arc of your line to stop wheelspin and find drive onto the straight.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>have to disagree. ESPECIALLY, on compound turn sequences, you want your back end as inline as possible, becuase, the momentum the rear will have when it snaps back in set up for the next opposite turn, will make the swing even wilder. I agree, that some throttle steering is needed and helpful and probably often used even though I dont give it much thought in those conditions, but it is hardly drifting. Lets define drifting. the art of stepping out the rear end before a turn to allow for maximum slide, counter steer , and off line yaw angle. this is not fast. it never is. show it to me this season with any driver and Ill buy you that beer (long distance)
What's more important? Grip style under braking into the first left hander? Or higher terminal speed out of the right hander onto the straight? The latter for sure. Whatever you lose under braking you make up ten fold with higher terminal speed coming onto the next straight.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>thats the question. ive seen a lot of differerent lines through these types of turns, and I would say, most of the exit speeds are pretty close. Ive seen my advantage by running up to looser cars, before the first turn and riding their loose tails right out of the series of turns.
Your right in concept. you want to not sacrafice exit speed , by any technique through the series of turns. In fact, it can be quite the opposite of a drift. a late brake, good planted line through the turn can allow for an earlier application of power on the exit. we have lots of turns as you describe out here. never seen anyone use a drift to get through them.
Smooth, grip style driving is the fastest way around a race track, that's a given. I don't disagree with that. But there are occasional exceptions where you need drifting. At some tracks you may not require drifting at all, other tracks you may need to apply it in one or two corners, to avoid breaking your momentum and maintain your exit speed.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>sometimes some wrestling around of the car is needed and it can be very abrupt and hardly smooth. but generally, smooth and consistant is best.
That is an advanced art and skill you're obviously not familiar with (yet). You're dead against drifting, but you're never too old to learn, so get off your "Im one of the best drivers" pedestal and open your mind buddy.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>The reason Im turning the times of one of the better drivers we all know Mark Anderson, in a car with 1.5 liters less engine a few years ago, is that ive been a student of the sport. show me one hot lap in any race by any pro that is using a drift to set the car for a series of off/on cambered turns, and Ill evaluate it. until then, your descriptions make no sense. and again, If I saw you pitch your car in a drift to set up for some combination turns, I would be by you in a heart beat.
I'm learning all the time and it's fun. Perhaps you can teach me some stuff, and I could teach you some stuff if and when you get here. We'll have fun for sure, but I still think I'm gonna whip your *** buddy, he-he-he
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>hey, always up for a contest!! thats why I do this stuff. but make no mistake, I do my homework! Its not hours and hours of practice, its hours and hours of PERFECT practice.
Hey, it is all in fun. Im competitive and cant wait to get in the fight again. I can drift if I want. its fun. im not that bad at it either, but its a little harder on hot stickies too! however, my toyo RA1s are not bad for drifting, but just not quite as sticky as DOTs, but they love 4 wheel drifts and that is used by all the American Sedan race class cars out here as their spec tire.
Mk
Cheers,
Pierre.
ps - I'll post pics and specs of my car soon.
03-11-2004 | 04:07 PM
#63
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 29,956
Likes: 180
From: saratoga, ca
Pierre,
what type of racing have you been involved with. have you raced in the club ranks, or just DEs? Just curious of your experience level.
The reason I ask, is there is a big difference between racing with seasoned races in an actual race vs DEs or open track events. Ive instructed a lot of folks that thought they were hot stuff, only to see guys with excellent car control, but are slow as snails overall. (relative to seasoned racers in simular equipment) Later it does my heart well to see them clean up their act and use their natural instincts to contol a car with correct and fast techniques.
Mk
what type of racing have you been involved with. have you raced in the club ranks, or just DEs? Just curious of your experience level.
The reason I ask, is there is a big difference between racing with seasoned races in an actual race vs DEs or open track events. Ive instructed a lot of folks that thought they were hot stuff, only to see guys with excellent car control, but are slow as snails overall. (relative to seasoned racers in simular equipment) Later it does my heart well to see them clean up their act and use their natural instincts to contol a car with correct and fast techniques.
Mk
Originally posted by Pierre Martins
Thanks Vilhuer.
That's what I been trying to say all the time.
"Selective" drifting.
Though a bit over the top for some, it works if you know when and where to use it.
Thanks Vilhuer.
That's what I been trying to say all the time.
"Selective" drifting.
Though a bit over the top for some, it works if you know when and where to use it.
03-11-2004 | 05:18 PM
#64
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Most of the amateur sports car racing at least in this county is done as a gentleman's sport . Contact between cars is forbidden and if you do , you get probation for 13 months ..a second contact earns you a 13 month vacation to think about your driving (or find another club) . Many drivers start with autocross one car on track at a time . Progress to timetrialing where you practice with other cars (no passing in corners ) BUT do a timed run or two to get your trophy with no other traffic .. PCA , POC has racing but with strict no contact rules . The point of all this is that many drivers learn to drive lines which in a "real " race would get them punted off the track when someone puts a fender between them and "their " corner . Perhaps much like the difference between "shadow boxing" and a bar room brawl . Deliberately using power oversteer perhaps lets you know where the limit of adhesion was and even though you have LESS traction than it had before it kicked out , you are at least close to that . Driving just below the limit is a judgement call and not one which is easily learned and many drivers are convinced that no one could possibly drive their car through that corner any faster than what they just did !!! Racing is an ego business after all .