'Ring lap in a Porsche...
03-04-2004, 05:00 AM
#16
Burning Brakes
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I guess this is as good a time as ever, so here's my 2 cents -
Yes, smoothness is the key, but this video was probably made for entertainment value, more than anything else. As for drifting, I agree what everyone here have to say, but I'd like to add this -
Depending on conditions, the car and the track, you can sometimes use drifting to get through certain corners faster. Two years ago a buddy of mine, Olly, and me went to the Welkom moto GP circuit to compete in historic car racing in my litlle Alfa.
Olly is a skilled 911 driver and has many trophies and awards to prove it. In practice the day before the race, Olly went out for 10 laps and came in bitching about severe understeer. I went out and experienced the same understeer, but what I did to overcome it was to induce oversteer in certain corners to keep up corner speed. Within 5 laps I was 15 seconds a lap quicker than Olly.
Why? Because understeer screws up entry speed into corners, but you can overcome that by pitching it sideways and steering with the throttle. Olly went out again and couldn't better his times. He was driving the Alfa like his 911 and stayed within the levels of traction. Then I took him for a few laps to show what I did and he couldn't stop babling how much he enjoyed drifting.
Corner speed is important, but critical through corners leading onto long straights. When I first took my 928 to time trials a few years ago, I was 5 seconds quicker than any 928 ever around Zwartkops race track. I was the sensation of the day. In stock trim is such a heavy front engined car, it will understeer when pushed hard. I guess the other 928 drivers excepted the limits of their 928s for the sake of smoothness.
The point I'm trying to make is - I don't believe you should become set in your driving. Experiment a bit. Try things. The limit of your car is relative to the limit of your driving skill. Smoothness is the key, the mainstream consensus and there's nothing wrong with it, but you can drift and still be smooth. Rally drivers drift to overcome understeer, especially when entering corners.
I found the same thing driving a 911 going through the esses at Kyalami. For a few laps I stuck to the conventional line for the sake of smoothness, but the car understeered going in, and coming out of the esses I was slow and way out of the cars powerband. Then I tried drifting through the esses and I came out much faster and in the right rev range. Clipped 2 seconds off my lap times.
I have a basic rule that if I'm under the limit of traction I'm slow. If I'm a tad over, I'm on pace. I drift. Occasionally I drift a lot, yet, people always compliment me on my "smooth" driving. I've had people next to me in the car that nearly shat themselves because of the way I set the car up aproaching certain corners, and I have to admit, it does feel a tad 'hairy', but then I come into the pits, someone will walk up to me and the first thing I'm told is "You're looking smooth out there, Pierre". Go figure.
The lesson I learned is to induce oversteer to overcome understeer in certain corners. Experienced drivers like Mark Kibort will probably flame me, but hey, it works for me and it might work for you if you try.
Cheers,
Pierre.
Yes, smoothness is the key, but this video was probably made for entertainment value, more than anything else. As for drifting, I agree what everyone here have to say, but I'd like to add this -
Depending on conditions, the car and the track, you can sometimes use drifting to get through certain corners faster. Two years ago a buddy of mine, Olly, and me went to the Welkom moto GP circuit to compete in historic car racing in my litlle Alfa.
Olly is a skilled 911 driver and has many trophies and awards to prove it. In practice the day before the race, Olly went out for 10 laps and came in bitching about severe understeer. I went out and experienced the same understeer, but what I did to overcome it was to induce oversteer in certain corners to keep up corner speed. Within 5 laps I was 15 seconds a lap quicker than Olly.
Why? Because understeer screws up entry speed into corners, but you can overcome that by pitching it sideways and steering with the throttle. Olly went out again and couldn't better his times. He was driving the Alfa like his 911 and stayed within the levels of traction. Then I took him for a few laps to show what I did and he couldn't stop babling how much he enjoyed drifting.
Corner speed is important, but critical through corners leading onto long straights. When I first took my 928 to time trials a few years ago, I was 5 seconds quicker than any 928 ever around Zwartkops race track. I was the sensation of the day. In stock trim is such a heavy front engined car, it will understeer when pushed hard. I guess the other 928 drivers excepted the limits of their 928s for the sake of smoothness.
The point I'm trying to make is - I don't believe you should become set in your driving. Experiment a bit. Try things. The limit of your car is relative to the limit of your driving skill. Smoothness is the key, the mainstream consensus and there's nothing wrong with it, but you can drift and still be smooth. Rally drivers drift to overcome understeer, especially when entering corners.
I found the same thing driving a 911 going through the esses at Kyalami. For a few laps I stuck to the conventional line for the sake of smoothness, but the car understeered going in, and coming out of the esses I was slow and way out of the cars powerband. Then I tried drifting through the esses and I came out much faster and in the right rev range. Clipped 2 seconds off my lap times.
I have a basic rule that if I'm under the limit of traction I'm slow. If I'm a tad over, I'm on pace. I drift. Occasionally I drift a lot, yet, people always compliment me on my "smooth" driving. I've had people next to me in the car that nearly shat themselves because of the way I set the car up aproaching certain corners, and I have to admit, it does feel a tad 'hairy', but then I come into the pits, someone will walk up to me and the first thing I'm told is "You're looking smooth out there, Pierre". Go figure.
The lesson I learned is to induce oversteer to overcome understeer in certain corners. Experienced drivers like Mark Kibort will probably flame me, but hey, it works for me and it might work for you if you try.
Cheers,
Pierre.
03-04-2004, 01:27 PM
#19
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Last year the Euro 928 group held their annual meeting at the Nürburgring. There were sixty-nine participants from ten countries and forty-two Porsche 928s at the event. A portion of the attendees took a few laps at the ring. Since it is a difficult track to learn (14 miles, 1000 vertical feet, most curves are blind) it definitely is not recommended that rookies try to "hot rod" it. The previous year I met a local “Ringer” and ex-rally driver named Ed who gave our little group “hot lap” drives in his Renault Clio Williams … the best laps I’ve ever had! Ed graciously agreed to lead the group of 928ers out and do ride-alongs. He helped me navigate the ring and improve my lines. I drove 14 laps of the ring that weekend, once driving Erik’s S2 and getting the most from my rental Opal. I also rode along for a few laps in Thilo’s GTS (NICE) and with John Eifert in Johnny’s “loaner” S4. I gave a few Opel tour laps to attendees who didn’t wish to drive their 928s. One attendee did loose control of his shark and sadly damaged fenders and lost the rear hatch glass. Another sharkster spun a few 360s (no damage) in a spot where Ed couldn’t figure out how he managed to do that. Multiple other cars were damaged or totaled-out that weekend. So it goes to show that rookies with no instruction and the most difficult race track in the world don’t mix.
In 2002, Jörg Austen, a retired Porsche employee, commented that he worked on Porsche motorsports program and really enjoyed driving the 928 on the Nürburgring. He said they used them quite a bit as safety cars (not as race cars) because of the extra room compared to other Porches.
In 2002, Jörg Austen, a retired Porsche employee, commented that he worked on Porsche motorsports program and really enjoyed driving the 928 on the Nürburgring. He said they used them quite a bit as safety cars (not as race cars) because of the extra room compared to other Porches.
03-04-2004, 01:48 PM
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I think we would have had a better time and there would have been less wrecks had the "Festival of Speed" not been scheduled the same week. The year before when we went after Euro 928 was by far less crowded. I'm not sure if you were in the picture below with me or not. I can tell fom the green coat that I was driving that lap. I wish I could find the site where these pictures were available. I'd like to purchase a larger version of it. I think it was one of the UK group.
Regards,
JE
Regards,
JE
Originally posted by Rich9928p
Last year the Euro 928 group held their annual meeting at the Nürburgring. There were sixty-nine participants from ten countries and forty-two Porsche 928s at the event. A portion of the attendees took a few laps at the ring. Since it is a difficult track to learn (14 miles, 1000 vertical feet, most curves are blind) it definitely is not recommended that rookies try to "hot rod" it. The previous year I met a local “Ringer” and ex-rally driver named Ed who gave our little group “hot lap” drives in his Renault Clio Williams … the best laps I’ve ever had! Ed graciously agreed to lead the group of 928ers out and do ride-alongs. He helped me navigate the ring and improve my lines. I drove 14 laps of the ring that weekend, once driving Erik’s S2 and getting the most from my rental Opal. I also rode along for a few laps in Thilo’s GTS (NICE) and with John Eifert in Johnny’s “loaner” S4. I gave a few Opel tour laps to attendees who didn’t wish to drive their 928s. One attendee did loose control of his shark and sadly damaged fenders and lost the rear hatch glass. Another sharkster spun a few 360s (no damage) in a spot where Ed couldn’t figure out how he managed to do that. Multiple other cars were damaged or totaled-out that weekend. So it goes to show that rookies with no instruction and the most difficult race track in the world don’t mix.
In 2002, Jörg Austen, a retired Porsche employee, commented that he worked on Porsche motorsports program and really enjoyed driving the 928 on the Nürburgring. He said they used them quite a bit as safety cars (not as race cars) because of the extra room compared to other Porches.
Last year the Euro 928 group held their annual meeting at the Nürburgring. There were sixty-nine participants from ten countries and forty-two Porsche 928s at the event. A portion of the attendees took a few laps at the ring. Since it is a difficult track to learn (14 miles, 1000 vertical feet, most curves are blind) it definitely is not recommended that rookies try to "hot rod" it. The previous year I met a local “Ringer” and ex-rally driver named Ed who gave our little group “hot lap” drives in his Renault Clio Williams … the best laps I’ve ever had! Ed graciously agreed to lead the group of 928ers out and do ride-alongs. He helped me navigate the ring and improve my lines. I drove 14 laps of the ring that weekend, once driving Erik’s S2 and getting the most from my rental Opal. I also rode along for a few laps in Thilo’s GTS (NICE) and with John Eifert in Johnny’s “loaner” S4. I gave a few Opel tour laps to attendees who didn’t wish to drive their 928s. One attendee did loose control of his shark and sadly damaged fenders and lost the rear hatch glass. Another sharkster spun a few 360s (no damage) in a spot where Ed couldn’t figure out how he managed to do that. Multiple other cars were damaged or totaled-out that weekend. So it goes to show that rookies with no instruction and the most difficult race track in the world don’t mix.
In 2002, Jörg Austen, a retired Porsche employee, commented that he worked on Porsche motorsports program and really enjoyed driving the 928 on the Nürburgring. He said they used them quite a bit as safety cars (not as race cars) because of the extra room compared to other Porches.
Last edited by JE928Sx4.; 09-21-2007 at 09:48 AM.
03-04-2004, 01:53 PM
#21
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Dude I've been around 911's all my life. And I tell ya, Olly sounds unlike any 911 driver I've ever met. 911 drivers, the best ones, will turn a 911 on a dime ... with the throttle. Rotate, rotate rotate.
03-04-2004, 02:00 PM
#22
928 Barrister
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Heinrich:
Thank you.
Pierre:
Thank you.
If you will watch the entire video, you will notice that the driver doesn't use the brakes going into the turn. What you call sawing is just what Pierre described. If two cars approach a corner and one brakes to go through it "smoothly" while the other maintains a higher speed through the corner at the exit of the corner the latter car will exit at a higher speed and be faster earlier down the straight. I have seen 904s do this to Cobras all the time: the Cobra stands on the brakes going into the corner and the 904 just keeps turning and exits faster. By the end of the straight, the Cobra's greater power catches the 904 but the 904 exits the corner first and it takes the Cobra most of the straight to catch it again. I think the word smoothness needs to be defined. The Ruf driver is able to put the car wherever he wants it on the track using the wheel and throttle and gears; the car passes through the corner in a controlled and "smooth" manner and exits at a higher speed without upseting the balance on either front or rear wheels. It is passing with the rear partly drifting but not the front and is also pointed in the right direction for the straight. I have ridden with one of the best 911 drivers around this area(Bay area) at Laguna Seca. He does the same thing and uses the throttle to drift the rear end around and then catch it at the exit where he is going faster when its needed. I have also ridden in at least as powerful 928 and commented to the 911 driver how much faster his driving seemed because he was "smoother". If I told you his name you would recognize it. And his lap times are faster. Does he use the rear weight bias to his advantage? You bet he does but in a controlled and smoother manner and does not need to slam on the power or leave black tire marks down the entrance to the straight. I could learn a lot from him and did. He was "smooth" throughout the entire course and faster than the other 928s or 911s. He maintiains a higher average speed and goes deeper into the corners and comes out faster than the others. I think the word is Finesse.
And don't talk to me about statistics or power. The 904s (giant killer) are one example. Sterling Moss was another example who was such a maverick that he refused to drive for factory teams and as a result had to settle for older less developed and less powerful machines. And he would beat the factory "smoother" drivers all the time in his "outdated" equipment and "***** out" determination, but was smoother while maintaining more speed, though he was not asleep at the wheel and used it if necessary to set up the car to exit faster. Didn't Carrol Shelby say that racing is straights separted by corners? He who can exit the corner at a faster speed has an edge on the other guy pussyfooting through the corners, all other things equal. Porsche has raised eyebrows for years with this principle on doubters who say the "engine is in the wrong position". The 928 is a forgiving concept for a street car without knowing who will drive it and under what conditions or state of consciousness. Listen to Pierre's and Heinrich's comments though about the track.
Thank you.
Pierre:
Thank you.
If you will watch the entire video, you will notice that the driver doesn't use the brakes going into the turn. What you call sawing is just what Pierre described. If two cars approach a corner and one brakes to go through it "smoothly" while the other maintains a higher speed through the corner at the exit of the corner the latter car will exit at a higher speed and be faster earlier down the straight. I have seen 904s do this to Cobras all the time: the Cobra stands on the brakes going into the corner and the 904 just keeps turning and exits faster. By the end of the straight, the Cobra's greater power catches the 904 but the 904 exits the corner first and it takes the Cobra most of the straight to catch it again. I think the word smoothness needs to be defined. The Ruf driver is able to put the car wherever he wants it on the track using the wheel and throttle and gears; the car passes through the corner in a controlled and "smooth" manner and exits at a higher speed without upseting the balance on either front or rear wheels. It is passing with the rear partly drifting but not the front and is also pointed in the right direction for the straight. I have ridden with one of the best 911 drivers around this area(Bay area) at Laguna Seca. He does the same thing and uses the throttle to drift the rear end around and then catch it at the exit where he is going faster when its needed. I have also ridden in at least as powerful 928 and commented to the 911 driver how much faster his driving seemed because he was "smoother". If I told you his name you would recognize it. And his lap times are faster. Does he use the rear weight bias to his advantage? You bet he does but in a controlled and smoother manner and does not need to slam on the power or leave black tire marks down the entrance to the straight. I could learn a lot from him and did. He was "smooth" throughout the entire course and faster than the other 928s or 911s. He maintiains a higher average speed and goes deeper into the corners and comes out faster than the others. I think the word is Finesse.
And don't talk to me about statistics or power. The 904s (giant killer) are one example. Sterling Moss was another example who was such a maverick that he refused to drive for factory teams and as a result had to settle for older less developed and less powerful machines. And he would beat the factory "smoother" drivers all the time in his "outdated" equipment and "***** out" determination, but was smoother while maintaining more speed, though he was not asleep at the wheel and used it if necessary to set up the car to exit faster. Didn't Carrol Shelby say that racing is straights separted by corners? He who can exit the corner at a faster speed has an edge on the other guy pussyfooting through the corners, all other things equal. Porsche has raised eyebrows for years with this principle on doubters who say the "engine is in the wrong position". The 928 is a forgiving concept for a street car without knowing who will drive it and under what conditions or state of consciousness. Listen to Pierre's and Heinrich's comments though about the track.
Last edited by Ron_H; 03-04-2004 at 02:40 PM.
03-04-2004, 02:01 PM
#23
Burning Brakes
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So you been spending your time around drifters? The slow people who dunno that going sideways is actually going slower? 
man you must wake up. There's a whole new breed of "smooth" drivers out there, and boy, are they FAST!
man you must wake up. There's a whole new breed of "smooth" drivers out there, and boy, are they FAST!
Originally posted by heinrich
Dude I've been around 911's all my life. And I tell ya, Olly sounds unlike any 911 driver I've ever met. 911 drivers, the best ones, will turn a 911 on a dime ... with the throttle. Rotate, rotate rotate.
Dude I've been around 911's all my life. And I tell ya, Olly sounds unlike any 911 driver I've ever met. 911 drivers, the best ones, will turn a 911 on a dime ... with the throttle. Rotate, rotate rotate.
03-04-2004, 02:29 PM
#24
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Im not sure i understand the message here . but let me say, DRIFTING IS SLOWER, there is no reason to wiggle, unless you are on a very tight autocross course. otherwise, wiggling is SLOW. any car in front of me that wiggles, will be behind me in a flash. if that person is drifting, he is behind even faster!! NO reason in the world to drift through any corner in a road course, PERIOD!! no one does it in the top pro or club ranks on ANY road course.
911 drivers that are good, never get a wiggle. yes, they can throttle steer but the backend is not stepping out, and their steering inputs are smooth.
Again, the video shows someone having a good time on the "Ring" and nothing more. Certainly, not the fastest way around the track.
Mk
911 drivers that are good, never get a wiggle. yes, they can throttle steer but the backend is not stepping out, and their steering inputs are smooth.
Again, the video shows someone having a good time on the "Ring" and nothing more. Certainly, not the fastest way around the track.
Mk
Originally posted by Pierre Martins
So you been spending your time around drifters? The slow people who dunno that going sideways is actually going slower?
man you must wake up. There's a whole new breed of "smooth" drivers out there, and boy, are they FAST!
So you been spending your time around drifters? The slow people who dunno that going sideways is actually going slower?
man you must wake up. There's a whole new breed of "smooth" drivers out there, and boy, are they FAST!
03-04-2004, 02:29 PM
#25
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Pierre,
Your points are well made re. corner set-up and drifting to compensate for understeer. For track days, club events, etc., I'm confident in the approach (to the corner as well as the argument) lol.
The only caveat for the race event/racer could be useful tire life - can you get enough laps in before the tires give up? - or, does drifting take enough stress off of understeering (read 'overheating) fronts to give a net gain in usable tire life? ie., - Does the technique for speed also provide the endurance to last to the finish?
Your points are well made re. corner set-up and drifting to compensate for understeer. For track days, club events, etc., I'm confident in the approach (to the corner as well as the argument) lol.
The only caveat for the race event/racer could be useful tire life - can you get enough laps in before the tires give up? - or, does drifting take enough stress off of understeering (read 'overheating) fronts to give a net gain in usable tire life? ie., - Does the technique for speed also provide the endurance to last to the finish?
03-04-2004, 02:47 PM
#26
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You cant be serious below!
Just for your information, drifting is NEVER a way to get through certain corners. Ive driven on a couple of the most technical tracks around, yet for some reason, Pros or good clubers never get their tail stepped out, unless they are correcting for unintentional oversteer. Folks get too caught up in these trophys and awards of some of these drivers that are not all that fast. Some, downright slow. 911s that are driven well in races ive been in over the last 7 years, are down right planted . very turney, and rarely do you see a wiggle, even at the tightest courses. I have lots of video of poorly driven 911s ending up backwards in walls. but good drivers rarely even get near problems with racing a 911. 911s will make a bad driver, look worse, however!
Im always looking for ways to get faster. No one is more of a student of the sport than I. Yes, you certainly can use throttle to help an understeering car, but the fact remains, if you step out the rear, you are going to be slower. sure, Ive had a step out during races where my times were within .2 seconds per lap for many laps. However, the step out was just a momentary correction. if you are talking about a drift, meaning, you purposly step the back out before the apex, then you are definitely going to be slow around that turn.
Sure a understeering car can be slower than a over steering car through some turns, but we are talking about subtle differences. Its hard for most Non racers to understand this, until they actually get wheel to wheel with some folks. when they are, and they see a fellow driver step out, again, that is a welcome sight, and most will be by that car in a flash. an understeering car is a challenge for most drivers to deal with. however a change in driving style can help keep your lap times close. you certainly dont have the manuverability in the turn that a loose car has, but a good driver should be able to deal with it (without " drifting" ).
You certainly are not going to see 5-15 seconds a lap difference between a loose car and a tight car. However, you may see a few .1s of a second.
Certainly, you can be smooth while drifting or getting a rear wiggle. Its always good to be smooth in most all situations. I had a real nice step out at the end of my last speedGT race at laguna (turn 11, last lap) . a few folks came over to me and complemented me on a nice powerslide around turn 11 and nice dual black tire marks on the exit. Its fun, no doubt. but, if I was wheel to wheel there, i would have lost the drag to the finish!!
I think that lap is on
http://928motorsports.com/othervideos.html
if you get some time, check it out.
MK
Just for your information, drifting is NEVER a way to get through certain corners. Ive driven on a couple of the most technical tracks around, yet for some reason, Pros or good clubers never get their tail stepped out, unless they are correcting for unintentional oversteer. Folks get too caught up in these trophys and awards of some of these drivers that are not all that fast. Some, downright slow. 911s that are driven well in races ive been in over the last 7 years, are down right planted . very turney, and rarely do you see a wiggle, even at the tightest courses. I have lots of video of poorly driven 911s ending up backwards in walls. but good drivers rarely even get near problems with racing a 911. 911s will make a bad driver, look worse, however!
Im always looking for ways to get faster. No one is more of a student of the sport than I. Yes, you certainly can use throttle to help an understeering car, but the fact remains, if you step out the rear, you are going to be slower. sure, Ive had a step out during races where my times were within .2 seconds per lap for many laps. However, the step out was just a momentary correction. if you are talking about a drift, meaning, you purposly step the back out before the apex, then you are definitely going to be slow around that turn.
Sure a understeering car can be slower than a over steering car through some turns, but we are talking about subtle differences. Its hard for most Non racers to understand this, until they actually get wheel to wheel with some folks. when they are, and they see a fellow driver step out, again, that is a welcome sight, and most will be by that car in a flash. an understeering car is a challenge for most drivers to deal with. however a change in driving style can help keep your lap times close. you certainly dont have the manuverability in the turn that a loose car has, but a good driver should be able to deal with it (without " drifting" ).
You certainly are not going to see 5-15 seconds a lap difference between a loose car and a tight car. However, you may see a few .1s of a second.
Certainly, you can be smooth while drifting or getting a rear wiggle. Its always good to be smooth in most all situations. I had a real nice step out at the end of my last speedGT race at laguna (turn 11, last lap) . a few folks came over to me and complemented me on a nice powerslide around turn 11 and nice dual black tire marks on the exit. Its fun, no doubt. but, if I was wheel to wheel there, i would have lost the drag to the finish!!
I think that lap is on
http://928motorsports.com/othervideos.html
if you get some time, check it out.
MK
Originally posted by Pierre Martins
I guess this is as good a time as ever, so here's my 2 cents -
Yes, smoothness is the key, but this video was probably made for entertainment value, more than anything else. As for drifting, I agree what everyone here have to say, but I'd like to add this -
Depending on conditions, the car and the track, you can sometimes use drifting to get through certain corners faster. Two years ago a buddy of mine, Olly, and me went to the Welkom moto GP circuit to compete in historic car racing in my litlle Alfa.
Olly is a skilled 911 driver and has many trophies and awards to prove it. In practice the day before the race, Olly went out for 10 laps and came in bitching about severe understeer. I went out and experienced the same understeer, but what I did to overcome it was to induce oversteer in certain corners to keep up corner speed. Within 5 laps I was 15 seconds a lap quicker than Olly.
Why? Because understeer screws up entry speed into corners, but you can overcome that by pitching it sideways and steering with the throttle. Olly went out again and couldn't better his times. He was driving the Alfa like his 911 and stayed within the levels of traction. Then I took him for a few laps to show what I did and he couldn't stop babling how much he enjoyed drifting.
Corner speed is important, but critical through corners leading onto long straights. When I first took my 928 to time trials a few years ago, I was 5 seconds quicker than any 928 ever around Zwartkops race track. I was the sensation of the day. In stock trim is such a heavy front engined car, it will understeer when pushed hard. I guess the other 928 drivers excepted the limits of their 928s for the sake of smoothness.
The point I'm trying to make is - I don't believe you should become set in your driving. Experiment a bit. Try things. The limit of your car is relative to the limit of your driving skill. Smoothness is the key, the mainstream consensus and there's nothing wrong with it, but you can drift and still be smooth. Rally drivers drift to overcome understeer, especially when entering corners.
I found the same thing driving a 911 going through the esses at Kyalami. For a few laps I stuck to the conventional line for the sake of smoothness, but the car understeered going in, and coming out of the esses I was slow and way out of the cars powerband. Then I tried drifting through the esses and I came out much faster and in the right rev range. Clipped 2 seconds off my lap times.
I have a basic rule that if I'm under the limit of traction I'm slow. If I'm a tad over, I'm on pace. I drift. Occasionally I drift a lot, yet, people always compliment me on my "smooth" driving. I've had people next to me in the car that nearly shat themselves because of the way I set the car up aproaching certain corners, and I have to admit, it does feel a tad 'hairy', but then I come into the pits, someone will walk up to me and the first thing I'm told is "You're looking smooth out there, Pierre". Go figure.
The lesson I learned is to induce oversteer to overcome understeer in certain corners. Experienced drivers like Mark Kibort will probably flame me, but hey, it works for me and it might work for you if you try.
Cheers,
Pierre.
I guess this is as good a time as ever, so here's my 2 cents -
Yes, smoothness is the key, but this video was probably made for entertainment value, more than anything else. As for drifting, I agree what everyone here have to say, but I'd like to add this -
Depending on conditions, the car and the track, you can sometimes use drifting to get through certain corners faster. Two years ago a buddy of mine, Olly, and me went to the Welkom moto GP circuit to compete in historic car racing in my litlle Alfa.
Olly is a skilled 911 driver and has many trophies and awards to prove it. In practice the day before the race, Olly went out for 10 laps and came in bitching about severe understeer. I went out and experienced the same understeer, but what I did to overcome it was to induce oversteer in certain corners to keep up corner speed. Within 5 laps I was 15 seconds a lap quicker than Olly.
Why? Because understeer screws up entry speed into corners, but you can overcome that by pitching it sideways and steering with the throttle. Olly went out again and couldn't better his times. He was driving the Alfa like his 911 and stayed within the levels of traction. Then I took him for a few laps to show what I did and he couldn't stop babling how much he enjoyed drifting.
Corner speed is important, but critical through corners leading onto long straights. When I first took my 928 to time trials a few years ago, I was 5 seconds quicker than any 928 ever around Zwartkops race track. I was the sensation of the day. In stock trim is such a heavy front engined car, it will understeer when pushed hard. I guess the other 928 drivers excepted the limits of their 928s for the sake of smoothness.
The point I'm trying to make is - I don't believe you should become set in your driving. Experiment a bit. Try things. The limit of your car is relative to the limit of your driving skill. Smoothness is the key, the mainstream consensus and there's nothing wrong with it, but you can drift and still be smooth. Rally drivers drift to overcome understeer, especially when entering corners.
I found the same thing driving a 911 going through the esses at Kyalami. For a few laps I stuck to the conventional line for the sake of smoothness, but the car understeered going in, and coming out of the esses I was slow and way out of the cars powerband. Then I tried drifting through the esses and I came out much faster and in the right rev range. Clipped 2 seconds off my lap times.
I have a basic rule that if I'm under the limit of traction I'm slow. If I'm a tad over, I'm on pace. I drift. Occasionally I drift a lot, yet, people always compliment me on my "smooth" driving. I've had people next to me in the car that nearly shat themselves because of the way I set the car up aproaching certain corners, and I have to admit, it does feel a tad 'hairy', but then I come into the pits, someone will walk up to me and the first thing I'm told is "You're looking smooth out there, Pierre". Go figure.
The lesson I learned is to induce oversteer to overcome understeer in certain corners. Experienced drivers like Mark Kibort will probably flame me, but hey, it works for me and it might work for you if you try.
Cheers,
Pierre.
03-04-2004, 03:00 PM
#27
Rennlist Member
short video clip of what loose in a turn does
Here is a short clip, low video quality but good sound. (got to love 928s with open headers!) check out the mustang drifing at the last turn.
Im not by him after his little mistake, as the 160hp disadvantage was just too much for me to overcome on the exit. But I was able to get in front of the Supercharged Mustang with only a 100hp more, and stay there.
turn up the volume! (If you are into that kind of thing, as I am!)
http://www.electricsupercharger.com/...ang%20pass.mpg
MK
Im not by him after his little mistake, as the 160hp disadvantage was just too much for me to overcome on the exit. But I was able to get in front of the Supercharged Mustang with only a 100hp more, and stay there.
turn up the volume! (If you are into that kind of thing, as I am!)
http://www.electricsupercharger.com/...ang%20pass.mpg
MK
03-04-2004, 03:13 PM
#28
928 Barrister
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Someone once said: "What we have here is a failure to communicate" (and he is still racing isn't he? )
Anyway, I think it is clear that a sudden and unexpected or unwanted "wiggle" or loss of traction or intended direction is clearly detrimental on the track or street. That isn't what the Ruf driver seems to be doing, which is induced over or understeer. He appears to be "sawing" while the car is stable and controlled and "smoothly" passing from one state to another at his will. Anyone who has not expected a tail wagger to swap ends is momentarily freaked when it does and for them there are 928s which are so predictable and forgiving, even I can drive them. My 914/6 on the other hand can be a handful. And occasionally it will wiggle a great deal, but can be tossed deliberately. I also drove a 996 C-4 that made me angry because it wouldn't break loose. That kind of "wiggle" is deliberate and can be controlled. Moss once lost a "wiggle" in a moment of exhuberance and bent the wheel into a pretzel (!) "sawing" to get out of it.
Wiggles can be smoothly induced and desired, or they can upset the car and be deadly. Communication and definition of terms, eh?!!
Anyway, I think it is clear that a sudden and unexpected or unwanted "wiggle" or loss of traction or intended direction is clearly detrimental on the track or street. That isn't what the Ruf driver seems to be doing, which is induced over or understeer. He appears to be "sawing" while the car is stable and controlled and "smoothly" passing from one state to another at his will. Anyone who has not expected a tail wagger to swap ends is momentarily freaked when it does and for them there are 928s which are so predictable and forgiving, even I can drive them. My 914/6 on the other hand can be a handful. And occasionally it will wiggle a great deal, but can be tossed deliberately. I also drove a 996 C-4 that made me angry because it wouldn't break loose. That kind of "wiggle" is deliberate and can be controlled. Moss once lost a "wiggle" in a moment of exhuberance and bent the wheel into a pretzel (!) "sawing" to get out of it.
Wiggles can be smoothly induced and desired, or they can upset the car and be deadly. Communication and definition of terms, eh?!!
03-04-2004, 03:17 PM
#29
Burning Brakes
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Garth, I was just teasing the smoothies a little, but with a purpose.
Drifting will screw up your tyres, no question about that. In a short sprint splash & dash race, you can get away with it if your tyre budget allows. Say a ten lapper race on a 4km track, but you'll have to be carefull towards the end.
Drifting in endurance racing is plain stupid. It'll never work.
Let me make it clear - I'm not saying you should drive like a cowboy and hang the *** out around every corner (like the guy in the vid) but you should not be scared to try things. During practice, that is.
If you stay in the limits of traction at all times you are bound by that. My years in bike racing tought me that. Watch AMA, Moto GP and WSB if you want to see total disregard for smoothness and traction, but you'll also see some riders that can drift smoothly. Watch EU and Oz touring cars if you wanna see how that's done on 4 wheels.
I just wanted to raise this point because a 928 in stock trim is known to understeer, but you can drive `around` that if you have the ***** for it and are prepared to risk your car. To do that, pick the corners you really battle with understeer at the track. Brake less, keep up entry speed, pitch the bastard using the rear end as weight biast, get back on the power asap and be ready to catch it if the *** steps out too far... If you do it right, you'll even look "smooth" ahem.
But you don't need to do that in all corners. Just the real tight ones and the ones you battle to turn in on entry.
Last, but not least, I will say this - I've not seen many drivers that can alternate between grip and drift style driving to maintain corner speed and reduce lap times, even in a **** car. That said, I've seen even fewer that can manage do that and repeat it lap after lap in a sprint race. Those are the true masters. The rest will stick to the secure comforts of grip style driving.
Anyone can be fast in well setup race car, driving grip style.
Another can open, more worms... Have fun boys...
Drifting will screw up your tyres, no question about that. In a short sprint splash & dash race, you can get away with it if your tyre budget allows. Say a ten lapper race on a 4km track, but you'll have to be carefull towards the end.
Drifting in endurance racing is plain stupid. It'll never work.
Let me make it clear - I'm not saying you should drive like a cowboy and hang the *** out around every corner (like the guy in the vid) but you should not be scared to try things. During practice, that is.
If you stay in the limits of traction at all times you are bound by that. My years in bike racing tought me that. Watch AMA, Moto GP and WSB if you want to see total disregard for smoothness and traction, but you'll also see some riders that can drift smoothly. Watch EU and Oz touring cars if you wanna see how that's done on 4 wheels.
I just wanted to raise this point because a 928 in stock trim is known to understeer, but you can drive `around` that if you have the ***** for it and are prepared to risk your car. To do that, pick the corners you really battle with understeer at the track. Brake less, keep up entry speed, pitch the bastard using the rear end as weight biast, get back on the power asap and be ready to catch it if the *** steps out too far... If you do it right, you'll even look "smooth" ahem.
But you don't need to do that in all corners. Just the real tight ones and the ones you battle to turn in on entry.
Last, but not least, I will say this - I've not seen many drivers that can alternate between grip and drift style driving to maintain corner speed and reduce lap times, even in a **** car. That said, I've seen even fewer that can manage do that and repeat it lap after lap in a sprint race. Those are the true masters. The rest will stick to the secure comforts of grip style driving.
Anyone can be fast in well setup race car, driving grip style.
Another can open, more worms... Have fun boys...
03-04-2004, 03:22 PM
#30
Rennlist Member
ok, bad example. sure, you can be smooth in drifting, but it isnt fast. sawing at the wheel is upsetting the car on countless occasions over the "ring " lap. this is NOT faster. it is COOL, but not fast.
if you look at any of the incar footage in a pro race, ie speedGT or lemans, or ALMS , there is little tiny sawing of the wheel to keep the car on edge on certain turns. Racing is a violent sport, no matter how "smooth " you are. but , sawing like this guy is not fast, not smooth, but the car looks smooth as it "drifts" through the turns. again, looks good, but if he was trying to be fast, and he was capable, he wouldnt be "drifting".
MK
if you look at any of the incar footage in a pro race, ie speedGT or lemans, or ALMS , there is little tiny sawing of the wheel to keep the car on edge on certain turns. Racing is a violent sport, no matter how "smooth " you are. but , sawing like this guy is not fast, not smooth, but the car looks smooth as it "drifts" through the turns. again, looks good, but if he was trying to be fast, and he was capable, he wouldnt be "drifting".
MK
Originally posted by Ron_H
Someone once said: "What we have here is a failure to communicate" (and he is still racing isn't he? )
Anyway, I think it is clear that a sudden and unexpected or unwanted "wiggle" or loss of traction or intended direction is clearly detrimental on the track or street. That isn't what the Ruf driver seems to be doing, which is induced over or understeer. He appears to be "sawing" while the car is stable and controlled and "smoothly" passing from one state to another at his will. Anyone who has not expected a tail wagger to swap ends is momentarily freaked when it does and for them there are 928s which are so predictable and forgiving, even I can drive them. My 914/6 on the other hand can be a handful. And occasionally it will wiggle a great deal, but can be tossed deliberately. I also drove a 996 C-4 that made me angry because it wouldn't break loose. That kind of "wiggle" is deliberate and can be controlled. Moss once lost a "wiggle" in a moment of exhuberance and bent the wheel into a pretzel (!) "sawing" to get out of it.
Wiggles can be smoothly induced and desired, or they can upset the car and be deadly. Communication and definition of terms, eh?!!
Someone once said: "What we have here is a failure to communicate" (and he is still racing isn't he? )
Anyway, I think it is clear that a sudden and unexpected or unwanted "wiggle" or loss of traction or intended direction is clearly detrimental on the track or street. That isn't what the Ruf driver seems to be doing, which is induced over or understeer. He appears to be "sawing" while the car is stable and controlled and "smoothly" passing from one state to another at his will. Anyone who has not expected a tail wagger to swap ends is momentarily freaked when it does and for them there are 928s which are so predictable and forgiving, even I can drive them. My 914/6 on the other hand can be a handful. And occasionally it will wiggle a great deal, but can be tossed deliberately. I also drove a 996 C-4 that made me angry because it wouldn't break loose. That kind of "wiggle" is deliberate and can be controlled. Moss once lost a "wiggle" in a moment of exhuberance and bent the wheel into a pretzel (!) "sawing" to get out of it.
Wiggles can be smoothly induced and desired, or they can upset the car and be deadly. Communication and definition of terms, eh?!!