Engine SLeeving in San Diego
02-27-2004, 12:38 PM
#1
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Engine SLeeving in San Diego
So I found a shop in San Diego that I visited yesterday. The shop's name is Motorworks, and they are one of the few in town with a sunnen (sonnen) machine. They have always done the Mercedes motors for the alusil process. Anyway, I spoke to a guy named Mike there, and he actually currently has a 928 block there from a local guy, ready to sleeve it to 106mm. He has numerous 944 blocks that have been sleeved the same way, and when looking at both the 944 and the 928 block side by side, I would think that the 928 block is appropriatley suited to this dry sleeving process.
This first block is something that I will be watching very closely, but I will probably end up sending my block to this guy to do my bore and sleeve.
A 106mm bore would net approx. 5.6 liters, and I will PROBABLY keep the original stroke, and use JE pistons set to give a 9.0-9.3:1 compression.
The experience there was much better then most every other shop that I have actually been able to view the machinery in.
I was thinking, apart from simply making sure that the info that I have is properly diseminated, that I would put the word out for a group-process of some sort.
I was thinking that we may gain a bit of "purchase power" if we can get a few different blocks in place to do the same thing, and maybe we can all benefit from a lower price. I am promising nothing right now, but I thought I would ask.
Now shipping a block across the country is usually an issue, but its not like they are THAT heavy when totally stripped, and if you don't have any place near you to do it, and I can verify the postive outcome on the block that is already there, I think its an option.
I wanted to add a bit on the 928 block structure: Its WAY more robust then the 944 block structure, and I may go back there to take some pics if Mike doesn't mind. At the bottom webbing AROUND the cylinder bore, the 944 block has OPEN areas that are unsupported. The 928 block, in the bottom webbing, has metal. Meaning that there are no open spaces. Its hard to describe, but I hope I am getting my point across. In the coolant jacket of the block, the 928 cylinders do NOT seem to have as much unsupported tower as the 944 blocks as well.
These two things are, IMHO, GOOD, and they show that our block can take quite a bit more then many of us are giving it.
Mike said an approximate figure of 2500, as he says the 944 blocks are about 1500, so add about 1000 more for the 928 machining. He explained that he would need whatever pistons are being used not at project outset, but by the time he is ready for finish boring, as he likes .003-.004 on the piston clearance. He said more then that and you get some piston noise at startup. JE recomends .003 for thier forged 4840 or whatever piston material.
Jesus - like I have mentioned before, if you don't liek boost, you could do a stroker, which adds a liter, and then do this, getting 6.6L. That would probably do many just fine!
There is one last issue - I saw this 928 block that was there, and it was done INCORRECTLY by AJ USA here in SD. They quite obviously finished the bore WRONG and the alusil process was not completed. The bore was taken to 104 - as many strokers are - I understand that many of our racing bretheren - Don Hanson, Mark A, Marc T, have 104mm bores, but...
Damn is that cylinder wall THIN! I mean it. People can fault me for choosing a sleeving method, but that aluminum couldn't hold much detonation. But like I said, the racers are all at 104, but there is no boost there. Just FYI.
This is a Tsleeve, where the top of the sleeve has a large shoulder that sits on the top of the bore tower, so there is NO up or down movement, and I have spoken to him about making the flange reach the sides of the block so there is no sid eot side movement either.
Anyway, is there any interest?
This first block is something that I will be watching very closely, but I will probably end up sending my block to this guy to do my bore and sleeve.
A 106mm bore would net approx. 5.6 liters, and I will PROBABLY keep the original stroke, and use JE pistons set to give a 9.0-9.3:1 compression.
The experience there was much better then most every other shop that I have actually been able to view the machinery in.
I was thinking, apart from simply making sure that the info that I have is properly diseminated, that I would put the word out for a group-process of some sort.
I was thinking that we may gain a bit of "purchase power" if we can get a few different blocks in place to do the same thing, and maybe we can all benefit from a lower price. I am promising nothing right now, but I thought I would ask.
Now shipping a block across the country is usually an issue, but its not like they are THAT heavy when totally stripped, and if you don't have any place near you to do it, and I can verify the postive outcome on the block that is already there, I think its an option.
I wanted to add a bit on the 928 block structure: Its WAY more robust then the 944 block structure, and I may go back there to take some pics if Mike doesn't mind. At the bottom webbing AROUND the cylinder bore, the 944 block has OPEN areas that are unsupported. The 928 block, in the bottom webbing, has metal. Meaning that there are no open spaces. Its hard to describe, but I hope I am getting my point across. In the coolant jacket of the block, the 928 cylinders do NOT seem to have as much unsupported tower as the 944 blocks as well.
These two things are, IMHO, GOOD, and they show that our block can take quite a bit more then many of us are giving it.
Mike said an approximate figure of 2500, as he says the 944 blocks are about 1500, so add about 1000 more for the 928 machining. He explained that he would need whatever pistons are being used not at project outset, but by the time he is ready for finish boring, as he likes .003-.004 on the piston clearance. He said more then that and you get some piston noise at startup. JE recomends .003 for thier forged 4840 or whatever piston material.
Jesus - like I have mentioned before, if you don't liek boost, you could do a stroker, which adds a liter, and then do this, getting 6.6L. That would probably do many just fine!
There is one last issue - I saw this 928 block that was there, and it was done INCORRECTLY by AJ USA here in SD. They quite obviously finished the bore WRONG and the alusil process was not completed. The bore was taken to 104 - as many strokers are - I understand that many of our racing bretheren - Don Hanson, Mark A, Marc T, have 104mm bores, but...
Damn is that cylinder wall THIN! I mean it. People can fault me for choosing a sleeving method, but that aluminum couldn't hold much detonation. But like I said, the racers are all at 104, but there is no boost there. Just FYI.
This is a Tsleeve, where the top of the sleeve has a large shoulder that sits on the top of the bore tower, so there is NO up or down movement, and I have spoken to him about making the flange reach the sides of the block so there is no sid eot side movement either.
Anyway, is there any interest?
02-27-2004, 01:40 PM
#2
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Brendan,
I had my block (all 8 holes) bored .5mm oversized. ($480.00)
Mike does great work. Fit and finish was excellent.
They know how to use that Sunnen machine.
Moterworks was the first to re-hap MB blocks.(Alusil)
I had my block (all 8 holes) bored .5mm oversized. ($480.00)
Mike does great work. Fit and finish was excellent.
They know how to use that Sunnen machine.
Moterworks was the first to re-hap MB blocks.(Alusil)
02-27-2004, 01:52 PM
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I stripped my block down for shipping, it was $100.00 each way from Cincinnati to Wisconsin (700 miles). Weight with the girdle and the crate was around 150 lbs. With the S4 you don't have to fight those studs like on the early cars...I pulled a few muscles getting those studs out, it was a real chore.
No Brendan, I am not going to mention the "N" word.
0.003" PTW seems pretty high considering what you have now, but you will need more with the iron sleeve, no doubt about it.
No Brendan, I am not going to mention the "N" word.
0.003" PTW seems pretty high considering what you have now, but you will need more with the iron sleeve, no doubt about it.
02-27-2004, 02:41 PM
#4
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Originally posted by John..
I stripped my block down for shipping, it was $100.00 each way from Cincinnati to Wisconsin (700 miles). Weight with the girdle and the crate was around 150 lbs. With the S4 you don't have to fight those studs like on the early cars...I pulled a few muscles getting those studs out, it was a real chore.
No Brendan, I am not going to mention the "N" word.
0.003" PTW seems pretty high considering what you have now, but you will need more with the iron sleeve, no doubt about it.
I stripped my block down for shipping, it was $100.00 each way from Cincinnati to Wisconsin (700 miles). Weight with the girdle and the crate was around 150 lbs. With the S4 you don't have to fight those studs like on the early cars...I pulled a few muscles getting those studs out, it was a real chore.
No Brendan, I am not going to mention the "N" word.
0.003" PTW seems pretty high considering what you have now, but you will need more with the iron sleeve, no doubt about it.
OKay, so thanks for that info on the shipping. I'm not sure anyone will want to go for this, if they can find shops by them, but the sleeve makers ARE all over down here (hell, Darton is 10 minutes away), so shipping THOSE may cost some money, and it would offset having the block shipped here. I am suprised by the cost of your shipping.
The .003 is from JE. They suggest that clearence with thier higher-silicone aluminum, (I think thats whats in that aluminum), the other piston material, which starts with a 2 (2640, 2840?) needs more clearence since it expands more. By "High" do you mean large? I was planning on having the JE pistons coated by swaintech or something with thier low-friction stuff. That clearence will be reduced then, but only by the coating.
02-27-2004, 02:41 PM
#5
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Originally posted by Prionace Glauca
Brendan,
I had my block (all 8 holes) bored .5mm oversized. ($480.00)
Mike does great work. Fit and finish was excellent.
They know how to use that Sunnen machine.
Moterworks was the first to re-hap MB blocks.(Alusil)
Brendan,
I had my block (all 8 holes) bored .5mm oversized. ($480.00)
Mike does great work. Fit and finish was excellent.
They know how to use that Sunnen machine.
Moterworks was the first to re-hap MB blocks.(Alusil)
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02-28-2004, 02:55 PM
#8
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Hey Chris, are they building you a new motor, or rebuilding the one they did previously?
If I recall, during the previous rebuild there was a miscalculation in head spacing that resulted in a dangerously high compression ratio.
If I recall, during the previous rebuild there was a miscalculation in head spacing that resulted in a dangerously high compression ratio.
02-28-2004, 06:36 PM
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A different shop (Anderson Motorworks) is building the motor this time around.
We are using the same stroker crank and block which is going to be sleeved. The plan is to go with custom JE pistons and Pauter rods to achieve about 10:1 compression.
We are using the same stroker crank and block which is going to be sleeved. The plan is to go with custom JE pistons and Pauter rods to achieve about 10:1 compression.
02-28-2004, 10:09 PM
#10
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Originally posted by Chris Bowman
Brendan,
That was my block you saw at Motorworks.
Anderson Motorworks is building the motor.
Chris Bowman
Brendan,
That was my block you saw at Motorworks.
Anderson Motorworks is building the motor.
Chris Bowman
How much is Anderson Charging you for the block, IF I may ask?
