ViribusUnits

I got to looking at the specs for the 924/944 cars built up to 85.

If Porsche had built the 83 US 928S to a similer state of tuneing to the US 924, we'ed have a 270 hp engine. 40 more ponys!

If it was a 4.5l engine, it would be a 260 hp engine. What is the deal?

Or, lets base it on a 83 944, OK? If Porsceh built the 83 US 928 to the 944's state of tuneing, we'ed have a 282 4.7l engine. Or, heaven help us, the 85's 5 liter, 300 hp.

What is the deal? Why were the 928's so "detuned"? I'm not saying they're not exciting as they are, but they'd be so much more exciteing with another, in my car's case, 40-50 hp!

Old & New

VU,

They did not want to step on the toes of the 911 guys. Gosh, if they had, the 928 might have been more interesting to them and maybe a bit more popular!!!

Dennis Wilson

Think they were worried about the gas mileage. More HP, less MPG, and more sales would have brought their average down and made them subject to a hefty fine.

Dennis

mspiegle

but the 928 motors have much more torque don't they?

Rich9928p

The 928 EURO S engine was pretty well tuned, it turned 300 DIN HP in 1980. Look to the S2, 310 DIN HP. So, Porsche did do it! But they didn't have to worry about smog requirements for the 928.

Now, for the US. The 50 state smog requirements were a big issue for Porsche at that time. It cost a huge amount then (and still does) to get "federalized" for smog. Once Porsche got the job done in 1980 with the L-Jetronic, they left things alone and kept things pretty much the same through 1984. The 944s were produced in much larger volumes than 928s, so the cost of federaliztion could be amortized over many more cars.

The 1985 32 valve US engine was Porsche's first "high performance" low-smog engine. Porsche also sold this engine with a catalytic convirter as an option in Germany, Switzerland and other places where "green" cars were desired.

Electronics and smog control had advnaced to a level where Porsche could build the S4 as a "world car" and use the same engines in all the models.

So you see dear ViribusUnits, Porsche had their reasons.

ViribusUnits

I don't buy it.

OK, so the smog laws in the us changed in 1980.

In 1980, Porsche was able to get 115 hp out of that 1.98l power plant in US trim. Or about 57.5 hp/l.

A 4.5l engine in a similer state of tune should deliver 258 hp, and still pass US emissions laws. For a 4.7l engine in the same state of tune, that would have been the 270 hp I talked about before. Apperently, Porsche didn't chance the 924 engine once they set it in 1980.

In other words, in 1980, when the engine was set, the 928 was less powerful.

At the very least, when Porsche shifted to the 4.7l engine, they could have used the already developed, and nearly bolt on Euro S intake. It would have cost them basicly nothing.

The US 32v engine was good for 288 hp right, or 57.6 hp/l, about equal to the 5 year older 924 engine, which also passed US smog testing. That would make the formor Audi engine the first low smog proformance engine Porsche made.

Nicole

No, really, the Porsche guys were one day sitting at the lunch table and plotting against the Americans. They decided that Porsche would not deliver any high power 928 to the US until prospective Porsche buyers would go on the street and protest the emissions requirements that castrated their cars, achieveing a change of laws. Unfortunately, Porsche buyers were not politically active enough, so Porsche gave in in 1985 and finally offered a stronger engine...

Yeah, the Porsche guys were really, really mean people in the 80ies. Is that what you wanted to hear?

ViribusUnits

No, I want to hear a reason the make sence. The "They had to castrate it to federalize it." doesn't make sence to me. All you have to do is look at their US 1980 924, and realise they didn't have to down rate it that much. Porsche could have easily gotten a few more poneys for basicly no money. That can't be bad for the bottem line.

Saying that they couldn't have sales of the 928 too high, or the feds would be all over their case for fuel milage requirements makes alought more sence. Excpet I thought that only really applyed to domestics?

ViribusUnits

I mean come on, how hard would it have been to graft the Euro S intake to the car when they built the origional US S? According to some of our modiferys, it's good for a nice 20 hp kick. It's just a TB change really, so it's not like emissions will be effected at all.

Or maybe the bigger valve heads? They chanced the came timeing when they changed the engine displacement anyways, why not bolt on the bigger valve heads? They're already casting them, and they're redueing the cams anyways.

Basicly, was it instutional lazyness, or was it done on purpose?

Rich9928p

was it instutional lazyness, or was it done on purpose?

>> I am quite sure that it was done on purpose.

a. The US speed limit had been lowered to 55 MPH. At one point, 1980 - ? it was required that speedometers couldn't show more than 85 MPH (I'm sure the Germans giggled about this). Porsche could have shipped 928s with only the first 2 gears and the still could exceed the US speed limit.

b. The cars that Porsche was competing against in the US for sales in that time were dogs, I'm sure that even at 220 - 234 HP, the 928 kicked ***. The US version will still do 130 MPH. Show me a US car from that vintage that could do that.

c. look to the worldwide and US 928 sales figures (courtesy of 928 Specialists). The number are small, 10,921 of the low power US smogged engines built in 5 years. Why would a sane company dump a huge amount of money to increase HP and pay the US for certification when sales are so small? I guess they weren't thinking ahead to 2003 when the people that would buy the cars 20 years later for less than $10,000 and wish that they had the same power as cars 20 years newer. Porsche probably built more 944s in a month than 928s in two years!

MY Total US
80 4278 1824
81 3821 2036
82 4570 2140
83 3999 2746
84 5095 2175

Why not use Euro heads and intake?

Actually, there is MORE low-end power produced with the smaller intake and valves. So the engine is probably more practical for US driving style, even today.

epbrown01

My own take on this? The Porsche family killed the 928 - they were never happy with the fact that a car someone else designed was touted as the "flagship" of the marque, rather than the 911. From what I've read, there was quite a bit of infighting with the CEO (can't recall is name, Wolfgang something?) over this issue during the late 70s. In 1980, the guy was ousted and Peter Schutz brought in. Schutz immediately began revitalizing the 911 line, bring in a cabriolet in 1983, doing the incremental upgrade of the engine to 3.2 in 1984, the new tranny in 1987, while immediately starting design on the 964, making the Porsche family happy. Despite his efforts (and they were good) sales of the 911 still tanked during the 80s - the cheaper 944 was keeping the company alive, and the 944 Turbo could beat the 911 and could be tuned to trounce the 930. Schutz got the boot and W. Wiedekin was brought in, and he's made sure that nothing beats the 911 no matter how blatantly clear it is that they could. The company has too much invested in the idea of the 911 as Porsche icon - the engineers do a lot better when given a clean sheet of paper, rather than being forced to tweek the 911's 40-year old design. Ah, well.

Emanuel

ViribusUnits

Brown, I was thinking the same thing as you.

I was thinking that if Porsche wanted to go after the US market and have the 928 replace the 911 and 930 your going to have to have two flavors of the 928.

Your going to have to have a cheaper, cruiseing GT type car. And your going to have to have a car stuck in *** kicking mode all the time. Maybe a 928, similer to the historical 4.5l cars, and a 928 similer to a Club Sport S in the 80s.

Porsche should have made the US 4.7l engine good for at least 250, if not 270 hp. It would have required useing the heads they already had, the TB and intake they already had, dual exaust, with a 2 in 2 out cat, hardly something difficult to do. And a modifyed fuel system. Retuned AFM and a higher pressure fuel regulater. Very cheap and easy for the factory to do.

This would have required as much effort in tuneing, possibly less, than the 60 hp/l of the 911 from the same era.

And then don't build competeing cars. If you want the 928 to replace the 911, do it, or don't build the 928. By building to cars that are almost competing, your hurting your profit margin. Stick with one, and make it right.

Rich9928p

By the time that project 928 undertaken, the Porsche family was not involved in company management. Ferry instituted that change in order to stop the in-fighting that was hurting the company.

Ernst Furhman was in charge of Porsche during the development of the 928. He and his staff feared that the 911 couldn't meet the US safety and emissions requirements so the 928 was created. It turned out that the air-cooled boxer engine could be "tamed" and the 911 lived on. Since the 911 lived on, the 928 was "pushed" upwards into the “premium” market segment and the price was increased to match. Was this the right thing to do? I guess so, Porsche is still in existence.

I’m impressed that Porsche invested the money that they did to keep upgrading the 928 given the very small numbers that were produced, especially later in the model life. Is the 928 better than other Porsches; yes and no. Each Porsche owner has their needs and desires. Does anything come from crying about decisions made 25 years ago about which heads and intakes were used for the “poor underpowered US market” …. I don’t think so. As a company, Porsche MUST look to the future. We 928 owners (and other old model enthusiasts) are of no use to Porsche’s future unless we buy their NEW cars.

ViribusUnits

This is true.

But it is intersting to understand why they did what they did, when they did it.

And maybe some of the things that we can do to undue what they did.

Dennis Wilson

Just a side note. Another reason Porsche didn't discontinue the 911 was they learned that Ralph Nader was only going after the rear engined cars belonging to the big, rich US automaker (GM).

Dennis