Did Porsche screw the 928?
02-29-2004, 05:53 PM
#19
Nordschleife Master
Thread Starter
Intersting.
Talk about a screw up. For lack of a 6 dollar part, the rear suspension was screwed up, and screwed the car. Intersting.
Never knew of that car. It was way before my time. Only what, 20 years before I was born?
Talk about a screw up. For lack of a 6 dollar part, the rear suspension was screwed up, and screwed the car. Intersting.
Never knew of that car. It was way before my time. Only what, 20 years before I was born?
03-01-2004, 11:45 PM
#23
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Originally posted by Rich9928p
By the time that project 928 undertaken, the Porsche family was not involved in company management. Ferry instituted that change in order to stop the in-fighting that was hurting the company.
Ernst Furhman was in charge of Porsche during the development of the 928. He and his staff feared that the 911 couldn't meet the US safety and emissions requirements so the 928 was created. It turned out that the air-cooled boxer engine could be "tamed" and the 911 lived on. Since the 911 lived on, the 928 was "pushed" upwards into the “premium” market segment and the price was increased to match. Was this the right thing to do? I guess so, Porsche is still in existence.
By the time that project 928 undertaken, the Porsche family was not involved in company management. Ferry instituted that change in order to stop the in-fighting that was hurting the company.
Ernst Furhman was in charge of Porsche during the development of the 928. He and his staff feared that the 911 couldn't meet the US safety and emissions requirements so the 928 was created. It turned out that the air-cooled boxer engine could be "tamed" and the 911 lived on. Since the 911 lived on, the 928 was "pushed" upwards into the “premium” market segment and the price was increased to match. Was this the right thing to do? I guess so, Porsche is still in existence.
That's not to discount Furhman's reasoning: taht the DOT would come down on rear-engined cars and that the air-cooled engine wouldn't meet stricter emissions standards.
Emanuel
Emanuel
03-02-2004, 01:16 AM
#24
928 Collector
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Ernst Fuhrmann. And yes there was that. The Porsche family did not agree that the 911 was dead. In a way they were wrong and in many ways they were right. I think they could have chosen either route and been successful. Had they gone Ferrari/Lamborghini-style (the 928 and 944/968) they would have been hugely successful. However they elected to force dear Dr Fuhrmann out, and that is why we aren't driving new 928's but new 911's today.
However .... my 1981 911SC had an 85mph speedometer (US only) till I just replaced it with the real one, a 170mph one. US regs.
Cats ... US regs. They take serious hp away, yet Porsche had to do it.
Porsche developed 6-litre and larger engines for the 928 but because of gas guzzler US regs, they dropped those. In fact the first 928 was to be a 5-litre but was scaled down for US gas regs.
Buy it or not ... Porsche were stuck with it.
However .... my 1981 911SC had an 85mph speedometer (US only) till I just replaced it with the real one, a 170mph one. US regs.
Cats ... US regs. They take serious hp away, yet Porsche had to do it.
Porsche developed 6-litre and larger engines for the 928 but because of gas guzzler US regs, they dropped those. In fact the first 928 was to be a 5-litre but was scaled down for US gas regs.
Buy it or not ... Porsche were stuck with it.
03-02-2004, 01:46 AM
#25
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I'd say that it was the marketplace that said that the 911 was NOT dead, they continued to buy what ever Porsche produced. Like it or not, there are many people who believe that a light(er) air cooled rear engine car is the way to go. There are a lot of good atributes to that design that I've learned to recognize on the track. There is a lot say for the simplicy of air cooling. The 911's dry sump oil system (up through 993) is still what we 928ers on the track wish we had. They were pissed with the 996 and even more sickened with the Cayenne. But Porsche is selling more cars than ever at a higher profit than ever.
There are reports that Ferdinand Piech (son of Ferry's sister, Louise) criticized the 928 at the time of the introduction as being too expensive and under powered. Then he went to VW to build the most expensive VW ever .... hmm.
However, I'd say that Porsche management did "stand behind" the 928 in a very capitalistic way. Look at the low production numbers ... never more than 5500 per year sold ('79 being the largest production year per www.928gt.com), yet the 928 lived on until 1995. If Porsche management "didn't like the 928" why wouldn't they have killed it much earlier when it was clear that sales would never be more than 6,000 per year? My '93 GTS is one of 730 sold in the world, one of 120 sold in the US. Wow, that is pretty rare for a "series production car.' And they built the 928 for two more years after that at a rate of one or two per day.
There are reports that Ferdinand Piech (son of Ferry's sister, Louise) criticized the 928 at the time of the introduction as being too expensive and under powered. Then he went to VW to build the most expensive VW ever .... hmm.
However, I'd say that Porsche management did "stand behind" the 928 in a very capitalistic way. Look at the low production numbers ... never more than 5500 per year sold ('79 being the largest production year per www.928gt.com), yet the 928 lived on until 1995. If Porsche management "didn't like the 928" why wouldn't they have killed it much earlier when it was clear that sales would never be more than 6,000 per year? My '93 GTS is one of 730 sold in the world, one of 120 sold in the US. Wow, that is pretty rare for a "series production car.' And they built the 928 for two more years after that at a rate of one or two per day.
03-02-2004, 01:52 AM
#26
Burning Brakes
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Definitely, US regs tried to kill it. Adding the emissions equipment to the 75-on 911s with 2.7L engines is why those cars have a bad rep to this day - all those engine failures before 50k miles. Throw in the fact that the US still wasn't getting the top models (2.7RS and 3.0RS), and that the difference between the 911 and 911S dwindled to little more than a trim package, and it's easy to see why Ernst thought the 911 wasn't going to make it to the 80s. Throw in the gas shortage, the 55 mph speed limit and its 85 mph speedos, and the removal of the turbo from this market and it's a miracle the 911 ever regained popularity.
Emanuel
Emanuel
03-02-2004, 10:15 AM
#27
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03-02-2004, 10:58 AM
#28
Nordschleife Master
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Yea, there is no excuse for this. In the late 70s, early 80s:
In European trim, the 911's 3l motor made eighter 180hp, or 204hp, depending on the year. That works out to eighter 60 or 68 hp/l for the 3l engine.
In US trim the 911 made 180 hp, or 60hp/l on the 3l engine.
The US 4.7 928 made 234 hp, or 50hp/l. The US 4.5l engine made 220 hp, or about 49hp/l.
The Euro 4.7l 928 made 300 hp, or 63hp/l, and the Euro 4.5l made 229, or 50 hp/l.
Seen in that light, it's no wounder the 911 was always able to have more hp per pound of car.
Makes the 928's motor look downright anemic!
In European trim, the 911's 3l motor made eighter 180hp, or 204hp, depending on the year. That works out to eighter 60 or 68 hp/l for the 3l engine.
In US trim the 911 made 180 hp, or 60hp/l on the 3l engine.
The US 4.7 928 made 234 hp, or 50hp/l. The US 4.5l engine made 220 hp, or about 49hp/l.
The Euro 4.7l 928 made 300 hp, or 63hp/l, and the Euro 4.5l made 229, or 50 hp/l.
Seen in that light, it's no wounder the 911 was always able to have more hp per pound of car.
Makes the 928's motor look downright anemic!
03-02-2004, 11:07 AM
#29
Drifting
I wonder whether Porsche continued building the 928 through '93-'94 on the what would become the Boxster production line in order to keep some of their highly trained workforce gainfully employed until the Boxster was ready to start production.