Front end slop question(?)...
02-07-2004 | 11:07 PM
#1
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From: Midland, Texas
Front end slop question(?)...
Trying to find the error of my ways.
A couple weeks ago Pattycakes pretty much commenced a uncommanded left turn in morning traffic at 4 way 8 lane intersection which got my attention. I got her back and into the slow lane and limped on home.
Up on blocks, wheels still on, the only play I could find was on the right front.
Checked for horizontal, vertical, and axial play -did this on the ground prior to lifting as well-.
Initially, I thought it might be the aluminum carriers were fixing to let go.
Then after pulling the wheels I noticed the boots were squashed and displaced where the A arm connects to the hub/spindle (B'joint).
Before I pulled the wheel bearings which were in mint condition - looked like they were packed last week- I did some heavy wiggling in search of the slop. The only result was minimal movement ay the steering rack and a noticeable clunk at the wheel bearing (right front).
Again, the wheel bearings, spindle, seats, and seals are cherry. All the links are tight and the A arm bushings are pliant - not dry- with zero play. Same for the stabilizer/sway bar bushings.
I'm actually hoping to find extensive wear/fracturing , internall, on the carriers to explain the uncommanded left turn.
If it wasn't the carriers where should I be Looking?????
In any case, I will be replacing the carriers and ball joints, going to redo -new-TB, rebuild the tensioner this time -slight squeal till it warms up, H2O pump and eyeball the rollers.TIA for any assist(s).
A couple weeks ago Pattycakes pretty much commenced a uncommanded left turn in morning traffic at 4 way 8 lane intersection which got my attention. I got her back and into the slow lane and limped on home.
Up on blocks, wheels still on, the only play I could find was on the right front.
Checked for horizontal, vertical, and axial play -did this on the ground prior to lifting as well-.
Initially, I thought it might be the aluminum carriers were fixing to let go.
Then after pulling the wheels I noticed the boots were squashed and displaced where the A arm connects to the hub/spindle (B'joint).
Before I pulled the wheel bearings which were in mint condition - looked like they were packed last week- I did some heavy wiggling in search of the slop. The only result was minimal movement ay the steering rack and a noticeable clunk at the wheel bearing (right front).
Again, the wheel bearings, spindle, seats, and seals are cherry. All the links are tight and the A arm bushings are pliant - not dry- with zero play. Same for the stabilizer/sway bar bushings.
I'm actually hoping to find extensive wear/fracturing , internall, on the carriers to explain the uncommanded left turn.
If it wasn't the carriers where should I be Looking?????
In any case, I will be replacing the carriers and ball joints, going to redo -new-TB, rebuild the tensioner this time -slight squeal till it warms up, H2O pump and eyeball the rollers.TIA for any assist(s).
02-08-2004 | 12:15 AM
#2
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Joined: Jan 2004
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From: Boulder Creek, CA
Did you look at the wheels to see if anything was dragging?
Other than that it sounds like you found it.
BTW, You mentioned that there was a "a noticeable clunk at the wheel bearing (right front)". Then you say the bearings are cherry. Or am I missing something?
D
Other than that it sounds like you found it.
BTW, You mentioned that there was a "a noticeable clunk at the wheel bearing (right front)". Then you say the bearings are cherry. Or am I missing something?
D
02-08-2004 | 04:16 AM
#3
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From: Midland, Texas
Tis the gospel truth, it is.
Not even a brush finish wear pattern of any kind on the rollers, and the cage is snug on them????
The keeper/nut was a bit loose.
When I loosened the allen screw - right front - I could spin it another turn, easily, with my little finger.
Do these German wheel bearings snug up like their American counterparts?
Snug up tight then back off a bit?
Waiting for the word on Jim Doerr's part's, possibly upgrading the brakes. Calipers and rotors. BTW If I do the upgrade do the front brakelines remain the same? Anyone???
Not even a brush finish wear pattern of any kind on the rollers, and the cage is snug on them????
The keeper/nut was a bit loose.
When I loosened the allen screw - right front - I could spin it another turn, easily, with my little finger.
Do these German wheel bearings snug up like their American counterparts?
Snug up tight then back off a bit?
Waiting for the word on Jim Doerr's part's, possibly upgrading the brakes. Calipers and rotors. BTW If I do the upgrade do the front brakelines remain the same? Anyone???
02-08-2004 | 07:58 AM
#4
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Joined: Oct 2003
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From: Nova Scotia
"Uncommanded left turn"
- Have you considered Demonic Possession?
Check out the WSM re. final bearing adjustment: I like to snug them up pretty tight while spinning the wheel - then back off, and tighten (again, while spinning) until the thrust washer can be 'just' moved with a small screwdriver.
As far as turning left..... are your brake circuits segmented diagonally or front/back? If the latter, then a right wheel oscillating (in a fig. '8') due to a sloppy bearing will push the caliper pads back, transferring pressure to the left front brake - the rest is history, or hysterical, and a candidate for Ripley's 'believe it or not'.
Not sure which upgrade calipers you're considering, but most all inlets are threaded identically - left turning cars may be the exception!
- Have you considered Demonic Possession?
Check out the WSM re. final bearing adjustment: I like to snug them up pretty tight while spinning the wheel - then back off, and tighten (again, while spinning) until the thrust washer can be 'just' moved with a small screwdriver.
As far as turning left..... are your brake circuits segmented diagonally or front/back? If the latter, then a right wheel oscillating (in a fig. '8') due to a sloppy bearing will push the caliper pads back, transferring pressure to the left front brake - the rest is history, or hysterical, and a candidate for Ripley's 'believe it or not'.
Not sure which upgrade calipers you're considering, but most all inlets are threaded identically - left turning cars may be the exception!
02-08-2004 | 10:02 AM
#5
Drifting
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 2,747
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From: Owasso, OK
John,
I would often get sudden left or right turns when driving the English farm roads in my Spitfire. Normally there was a squeal to go with it but not always. The problem was rocks/debris getting caught between the rotor and brake pad. Have you checked yours for signs of binding?
Dennis
I would often get sudden left or right turns when driving the English farm roads in my Spitfire. Normally there was a squeal to go with it but not always. The problem was rocks/debris getting caught between the rotor and brake pad. Have you checked yours for signs of binding?
Dennis
02-08-2004 | 11:00 AM
#6
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From: Minneapolis, Minnesota
I'll get sudden turns on uneven road surfaces. Asphalt with noticible track grooves will make it dart left or right.
The balljoint boots on my car are squashed when tightened down the first time.
Did it keep pulling to the left after the incident? Do the wheels, all four, turn equally easily?
The balljoint boots on my car are squashed when tightened down the first time.
Did it keep pulling to the left after the incident? Do the wheels, all four, turn equally easily?
02-08-2004 | 12:40 PM
#7
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From: Midland, Texas
Garth,
After my recent misread of the 'centimeter stick' I've been pretty cautious/thorough about my take on measurements and parts condition,
thank you very much.
Circuts are diagonal -thought all sHARKs were-.
I hear you bro, something wrong on the right forcing the car to left?????
I can't buy into a ocillation on the right forcing a bind/grab on/by the left caliper unless the brakes were applied. They weren't and I was the first one in my lane at the light.
Point of fact, when it occured, I thought it was the aluminum ball joint carriers so the last thing I wanted to do was apply the brakes.
Much perferable to let off gas, steer off the road, then have the wheel/hub lay completely over.
The brake line question came up when I was sourcing and bumping Jim Doerr's brake parts against 928 INTL's Catalog ,there ARE diffences by part number anyhow.
Front brake hose: my 78 - 81 928-355-079-00 $34.00
my 82 - 83.5 928-355-079-02 $48.00
my 83 - 86.5 928-355-081-00 $97.00
my 86.5- -91 928-355-081-02 $82.00
and that doesn't count the Stainless versions.There must be a reason, right?
The Vac booster (10') seems to run the board, but there are various and sundry changes like the Master cylinder for instance, pehaps, the check valve.....
The rear brakes don't have as many changes though there are a few.
Primary interest is getting everything right the first time, The 82's brakes are fine by me but the SC program has me thinking I might want to slow as well as go.
As to the turn itself... I had a mechanic screw up - idler link- on my 64' Falcon Futura- same end result.
Anything that lets one front wheel travel in a different direction than the other forces your brain to do some rapid calculations with little info to go on.
The pucker factor which is already in play goes up an order of magnitude when the brain assumes "something" must have fallen off- pick a steering component.
Dennis,
I thought Spitfires were so light and -some say- underpowered that you actually tacked with the wind.
But no, unless the culprit dropped out with out leaving a scratch on the rotors/pads.
I did notice, right side again, that the outer pad was not wearing flat and had a concavity that I dressed out on the milling stone with 300 grit, I mic'd and sanded the left side pad to same thickness. These are those Aussie pads I put on prior to SITO, shARKANSAS event. Very little wear and not much dust either.
They are more than up to the task of daily driving and some severe duty as well. Very pleased with them and cheap, too!
Glen,
While none of the wheels spin like a perpetual motion machine the fronts spin -seat of the pants/twist of the shoulder- about the same, and the rears spin about the same.
Nope wasn't wheel path or asphalt berming, I did hit one of those small (6") , raised, water valve caps prior to the whole thing getting started.
No, the turning did not continue but the steering felt like a bunch of pieces were no longer in the designed proximty of each other. VERY LOOSE, INDEED!
My balljoint boots are squashed and the right one has a crack -not all the way thru- running the circumference of the boot.
After my recent misread of the 'centimeter stick' I've been pretty cautious/thorough about my take on measurements and parts condition,
thank you very much.
Circuts are diagonal -thought all sHARKs were-.
I hear you bro, something wrong on the right forcing the car to left?????
I can't buy into a ocillation on the right forcing a bind/grab on/by the left caliper unless the brakes were applied. They weren't and I was the first one in my lane at the light.
Point of fact, when it occured, I thought it was the aluminum ball joint carriers so the last thing I wanted to do was apply the brakes.
Much perferable to let off gas, steer off the road, then have the wheel/hub lay completely over.
The brake line question came up when I was sourcing and bumping Jim Doerr's brake parts against 928 INTL's Catalog ,there ARE diffences by part number anyhow.
Front brake hose: my 78 - 81 928-355-079-00 $34.00
my 82 - 83.5 928-355-079-02 $48.00
my 83 - 86.5 928-355-081-00 $97.00
my 86.5- -91 928-355-081-02 $82.00
and that doesn't count the Stainless versions.There must be a reason, right?
The Vac booster (10') seems to run the board, but there are various and sundry changes like the Master cylinder for instance, pehaps, the check valve.....
The rear brakes don't have as many changes though there are a few.
Primary interest is getting everything right the first time, The 82's brakes are fine by me but the SC program has me thinking I might want to slow as well as go.
As to the turn itself... I had a mechanic screw up - idler link- on my 64' Falcon Futura- same end result.
Anything that lets one front wheel travel in a different direction than the other forces your brain to do some rapid calculations with little info to go on.
The pucker factor which is already in play goes up an order of magnitude when the brain assumes "something" must have fallen off- pick a steering component.
Dennis,
I thought Spitfires were so light and -some say- underpowered that you actually tacked with the wind.
But no, unless the culprit dropped out with out leaving a scratch on the rotors/pads.
I did notice, right side again, that the outer pad was not wearing flat and had a concavity that I dressed out on the milling stone with 300 grit, I mic'd and sanded the left side pad to same thickness. These are those Aussie pads I put on prior to SITO, shARKANSAS event. Very little wear and not much dust either.
They are more than up to the task of daily driving and some severe duty as well. Very pleased with them and cheap, too!
Glen,
While none of the wheels spin like a perpetual motion machine the fronts spin -seat of the pants/twist of the shoulder- about the same, and the rears spin about the same.
Nope wasn't wheel path or asphalt berming, I did hit one of those small (6") , raised, water valve caps prior to the whole thing getting started.
No, the turning did not continue but the steering felt like a bunch of pieces were no longer in the designed proximty of each other. VERY LOOSE, INDEED!
My balljoint boots are squashed and the right one has a crack -not all the way thru- running the circumference of the boot.
Last edited by John Struthers; 02-08-2004 at 12:56 PM.
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02-08-2004 | 01:20 PM
#8
Drifting
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 2,747
Likes: 3
From: Owasso, OK
John,
The Spitfire was really too low to tack with the winds. A good tail wind would help the speed a little.
Concerning the brakes, if something had stuck between the rotor and pad you would have seen a wear mark. The uneven wear is a different story. Aren't the caliper piston knuckles supposed to be aligned at 20 degrees forward or reversed to even the wear on the pad?
Dennis
The Spitfire was really too low to tack with the winds. A good tail wind would help the speed a little.
Concerning the brakes, if something had stuck between the rotor and pad you would have seen a wear mark. The uneven wear is a different story. Aren't the caliper piston knuckles supposed to be aligned at 20 degrees forward or reversed to even the wear on the pad? Dennis
02-08-2004 | 02:22 PM
#9
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,210
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From: Nova Scotia
John,
Re. the lower ball joints, all the normal hand wiggling of the suspension will not accurately indicate their condition:with the front susp. unloaded, use a prybar between the spindle and lower control arm to check for any vertical movement in the ball joint stud - the reverse of this is to place the prybar on the wheel rim and lever against the underside of the lower control arm. These two actions serve to 'extend' or 'compress' the stud in its carrier.
This latter manipulation can be done with the suspension loaded, in which case, you're looking for vertical elongation - the stud pulling out.
In any event, movement beyond 1-2mm will give you 'pause to reflect'.
Re. brake lines, the '83-'86 calipers are of the same design as the '82-'83.5. The former have 'flange head' input line fittings attached by a banjo bolt, allowing the brake line a rt. angle to spindle approach - the latter screw straight in, parallel to the spindle: My recollection is that the early lines will thread into the later (fist) calipers - the reverse is not true.
Re. the lower ball joints, all the normal hand wiggling of the suspension will not accurately indicate their condition:with the front susp. unloaded, use a prybar between the spindle and lower control arm to check for any vertical movement in the ball joint stud - the reverse of this is to place the prybar on the wheel rim and lever against the underside of the lower control arm. These two actions serve to 'extend' or 'compress' the stud in its carrier.
This latter manipulation can be done with the suspension loaded, in which case, you're looking for vertical elongation - the stud pulling out.
In any event, movement beyond 1-2mm will give you 'pause to reflect'.
Re. brake lines, the '83-'86 calipers are of the same design as the '82-'83.5. The former have 'flange head' input line fittings attached by a banjo bolt, allowing the brake line a rt. angle to spindle approach - the latter screw straight in, parallel to the spindle: My recollection is that the early lines will thread into the later (fist) calipers - the reverse is not true.
02-08-2004 | 03:24 PM
#10
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Joined: Jul 2001
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From: Midland, Texas
Dennis,
Down here, knuckles are like curb 'feelers'...they are meant for dragging.
I understand up there the knuckle hair is harvested and used for weed eater string...
I'll check though - Idon't know if I want to take the calipers apart as they are working just fine.
I assume you are talking about those spring metal clips on the backside of the pads anyway?
BTW One of my neighbors has a MG Midget... another has a Miata.
The Miata takes on a seemingly Cadillac , El Dorado persona when pulls up by the Midget.Garth,
Either way those ball joints are getting replaced
Down here, knuckles are like curb 'feelers'...they are meant for dragging.
I understand up there the knuckle hair is harvested and used for weed eater string...
I'll check though - Idon't know if I want to take the calipers apart as they are working just fine.
I assume you are talking about those spring metal clips on the backside of the pads anyway?
BTW One of my neighbors has a MG Midget... another has a Miata.
The Miata takes on a seemingly Cadillac , El Dorado persona when pulls up by the Midget.Garth,
Either way those ball joints are getting replaced
02-08-2004 | 03:58 PM
#11
Drifting
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 2,747
Likes: 3
From: Owasso, OK
John,
By knuckles I meant the raised point on the caliper piston. I realize that isn't a very good word for it. The lower part goes torward the rear of the car at about a 20 angle. The idea is for the raised area to press the front of the pad/rotor first. If the piston is misaligned, the pads will wear incorrectly and you may have some brake grab. Chapter 46 of the WSM has a better explanation and pictures.
Sorry I didn't explain it very well the first time, but I was trying to groom my knuckle hair and type at the same time.
Dennis
By knuckles I meant the raised point on the caliper piston. I realize that isn't a very good word for it. The lower part goes torward the rear of the car at about a 20 angle. The idea is for the raised area to press the front of the pad/rotor first. If the piston is misaligned, the pads will wear incorrectly and you may have some brake grab. Chapter 46 of the WSM has a better explanation and pictures.
Sorry I didn't explain it very well the first time, but I was trying to groom my knuckle hair and type at the same time.
Dennis
02-09-2004 | 09:19 PM
#15
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From: Midland, Texas
Glen,
Now there's a fresh thought for me to ponder.
I'll grab my son, Zack to put a turn or two on the wheel, while I eyeball things. I have a clear view with the car up on stands, exhaust, shields, and TT - lower/forward - cover removed.
Contemplating the engine mount swap as well.
Thanks.
Dennis,
Checked the 'knuckle-no hair- and the associated pad ...
all seems to be well.
Now there's a fresh thought for me to ponder.
I'll grab my son, Zack to put a turn or two on the wheel, while I eyeball things. I have a clear view with the car up on stands, exhaust, shields, and TT - lower/forward - cover removed.
Contemplating the engine mount swap as well.
Thanks.
Dennis,
Checked the 'knuckle-no hair- and the associated pad ...
all seems to be well.
