GregBBRD

Since I'll have about 15K more invested in this car, than those amounts, that would mean that the 928 market really sucks!

The other possibility is that my clients and I have a completely different definition of "well sorted" than the people on this Forum and BAT do....I spend that kind of money without having either the engine or transmission removed.....commonly.

But, if that is true, I'll have one hell of a car to drive!

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GregBBRD

In the 928 world, mileage means absolutely nothing....to me and a lot of other people. The speedo can be broken for decades, mileage in a digidash can be changed, etc.

Condition, condition, condition!

I see cars with 30,000 miles on them, which look like they have 200,000 miles on them. And I see cars with 200,000 miles on them, which look like they have 30,000 miles.

I had a client that bought a white GT in Florida, with 160,000 miles on it, drove it here, and had me check it out. It looked like it had 20,000 miles onit....I thought he was joking with me.

Anyway, he couldn't keep the car and I convinced another client looking for a low mileage GT to buy this car...although the mileage really scared him. It took weeks of me assuring him to finally get him to buy the car.

He drive the car up to Monterey, last year, and won the 928 event...he did nothing to the car, except drive it there!

Won the event....against garage queens and full restorations.

This white '91 is better than that car....

linderpat

I wouldn't say that. The 928 market is actually pretty strong relatively speaking (year over year). It is not uncommon at all for a restoration or even a deep refresh (like yours) to far exceed the arms length value of the car. That doesn't mean that the market is bad. I watch a lot of auctions, get SCM magazine, Hemmings Marketplace magazine, etc, and I'd venture that except for some rare birds, most cars never capture what was put into them.

BauerR

The only cars that command top dollar are low-mile examples. Even GTS's are still sitting with "lower" miles for what I would consider reasonable money.
I also know of a GT that has 60k miles that can't sell for 28k.

Unfortunately, there is nothing special about this car to command any real money. Yes, I understand 90-91 S4's are "rare" but at the end of the day, it's still just an automatic S4 with A LOT of miles.

I also disagree with you on mileage. I absolutely care about mileage and with so many S4's available on the market, I can.

I feel I need to reiterate this, I hope you get every last dollar for your car because "high tide raises all ships."

GT6ixer

Hey Greg. Like a bunch of us, Ed, Hoi, Dave, Bauer, Roger, etc., I spend a lot of time over at BaT watching the 928s go through. What is going on currently is there are a lot of first time 928 buyers bidding (and winning) on these cars. Those buyers aren't in the "928 world" yet so to them mileage is a factor. And yes condition is very important but I guarantee you a lot of bidders convince their significant others/ financial planners that buying a 928 now will be an "investment" and buying one with 160K on the clock doesn't allow it room to appreciate as fast as one with sub 100K. They also are not as sensitive to the differences in model years. Most I gather start by looking for the body style they like best: OB, S, S4. Then they look for a color combo they like best. I almost certain that if you ask the guy that wins an '88 S4 why he didn't wait for a '91 S4 that he would have no clue of the differences. It's not like the 911 market where buyers are very savvy to all the subtle differences Porsche made on those cars year to year. But I believe sites like BaT are helping educate buyers and as prices continue to rise people will become more sensitive to model year valuation. But I think that is still at least 5 years away. The last big price factor is transmission. Manual is still the king and probably always will be since it is more rare. Expect about a 20% bump for manual cars.

As for your car, even though white is not a super sought after color in the 928 world, it is a very good color right now in the 928 market. Black, white, red and silver cars seem to get the most action at auctions. The reason for this, I believe, is again there are a lot of first time buyers and they tend to get a little conservative with color selection. Buying a cassisrot metallic 928 for example would be a risk in their mind. "Am I the only one that likes this color? What happens when I try to sell it down the road? Will anybody want it?" The other thing that is huge for buyers looking to invest in 928s is originality. And by that I mean the things you can see, not necessarily the little mechanical bits under cover. And not necessarily original to the car but original for the car. If you do end up putting it up for sale I'd recommend putting in an original radio, shifter handle, and orange air filter for example. The condition of the car looks great. Those seats are among the nicest I seen, especially the passenger seat (has that thing ever been sat in!). The only minor flaw I see is the warp in the dash above the center vents.

Finally adding your name to this car, not just as the guy that "sorted" it but as the owner and seller, would in my mind be at least a 20% bump vs. if it were me selling it. Especially on a site like BaT where you would undoubtedly get tons of praise in the comments section which would bleed over to bidder confidence. I don't believe you would realize over $30K for this car right now, and that is solely due to the mileage. Mid to high 20's is my honest guess for top end.

GregBBRD

I agree with you about S4 prices. My point is that people buy these cars and put 20-30k (sometimes way more, if they get unlucky or conned) into them to make them reliable and safe....and they still need paint and interior work!

Understand, that's my experiment!

I could have "flipped" this car and made more money (without doing anything) than I'll make in the end, doing the car the way I'm doing it. That's not the point or the goal.

Is there a market for a mechanically and electrically perfect car, with great paint and a great interior.....the perfect driver/preservation class car?

Is there a demand/future market for a "turn key" perfect car?

Or are they worth 15-20k, no matter what the condition/year, as you propose?

If the last is true, I'm totally cool. I'll end up with a really great car/example. I'll put one of everything I make into the car and have a fantastic "demo" car.

And other people/clients will know that "investing" money into these cars, right now, means that they are going to have to wait a few more years for the market to appreciate to get their "investment" back.

I don't see how this car could possibly "raise the tide" of other 928s, out there for sale, which need 25K+ worth of mechanical work to make them legitimate "drivers". I have a parking lot full of those cars, waiting for me to get to them.
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This is not that "kind" of car, nor the intention of the "experiment".


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BauerR

I think the biggest flaw in your experiment is you've forgotten the human element and the type people who buy these cars.

IMO there are 2 types.
1) The guy who wants the best/lowest mile example he can buy. This guy will pay the premium on a perfect car. He's not much of a wrench turner

2) "US" or I'd say 95% of 928 owners. People who like projects, and more importantly, form a bond with THEIR car. The 928 is more than just a car and to find one that needs a little help, is the perfect car.
Ultimately, we all know we will spend the money but the journey to get there is a major part of the appeal. Whether he is a hardcore wrench turner who will frequent your website or the guy that isn't a wrench turner who will frequent your shop. At the end of the day, he will take a tremendous amount of pride bringing his 928 back to life.

That's why I feel this car, at the the price point of 35-40k, misses the major market of buyer. You've robbed the guy of his pride/bonding experience and priced it like a low-mile, concourse 928. Which it isn't.

So I'm still hard on 19k, at best

linderpat

Regardless of the various opinions here Greg, as you know more than most, these are just WAG's of ours; albeit somewhat informed, but who knows. Put it out there for what you think you can get, and see. As for BaT, many times it is simply the luck of who is in the room at the end. It just takes 2. This car would be a great one to watch. Just be sure and set your reserve appropriately, so that you can live with whatever result you get.

hlee96

Beautiful car and an amazing interior.
However, BaT sets the reserve. With the mileage, BaT likely will not have a reserve above $15k.
Car can probably be bought here by a Rennlister >$25-28k, but not much more, and certainly not anywhere else.
To us, we are always trying to go for that $10k unicorn that needs nothing...Yeah, that was probably 10-15 years ago, or selling by the original owner that knows nothing about the internet (like my Weissach #155).
:-)

GregBBRD

Think about what you wrote.....long and hard.

If that's the case, then BaT's assigned values rule the entire 928 market....and there is no room/market for fantastic "restored" cars. People putting big dollars into these cars to make them new again are throwing their money away, since you think the only vehicles that have any value are low mileage garage queens.....with blocks and heads that are eaten away from not having the coolant changed for 30 years. Low mileage cars with junk engines.

That also pretty much kills any chance of the values significantly increasing on the 928 models, very far beyond where they are currently at.

That's really sad for the 928 market and all the people here. We end up with rambling wrecks that need to be restored and big dollar "garage queens" with junk engines....nothing between the two extremes is worth any more....

However, as I said above, that's what I'm trying to find out.

Dmckenzie

Hi all, I suppose I'll dive in with my first post with my 2 cents! Greg, I think there may be a market, or at least one that will form. I'm one of these new guys. I haven't worked on engines. Although the more I read and learn, the more I'm seeing myself trying to start - I just never had the time or project. But I recently got a project when my father-in-law passed leaving behind his '80 5 speed. He loved that car, and I have been trying to figure out if there's any way to get her going again. But at each turn, the news gets worse, to the point it seems crazy to put a bunch of money (or any) into it. But in the process, I've become a bit obsessed with these 928s. I'm set on getting one. I don't care about investment. I plan to keep it a very long time. Listening to all of you and seeing how much my father-in-law enjoyed his car, I want to experience this ride. But since I need someone to do the work on one if it's a project, I'd be real tempted on one that's already sorted (and if you're doing it, we know that's with a capital "S"). Especially being in Los Angeles, where repeat trips to a shop can suck hours in a commute. I'd probably be fine paying a premium for knowing I can enjoy the car with some confidence for a while - at least let me drive it while I come to learn more of the technical stuff. If I wasn't set on a manual, I'd probably be driving down to bother you over the weekend.

I know this is anecdotal, but I think there will be more people with my kind of experience. I already know a few. We remember these cars, we find a connection with them, but since we don't have the expertise like so many on here, our best bet is to rely on someone who can sort it out. And if it costs a bit more, what the hell, like can be short.

GT6ixer

GregBBRD

Here's a recent story/perfect example.

Client buys an '87 five speed. 80,000 miles. Extremely nice car, visually. Good paint, good interior. Pays 30K for the car.

Usual list of defered maintenence: Water pump, timing belt, timing gears, etc. Intake refresh. Water hoses, heater control valve, updated elbow on head. Fuel system hoses, regulators, dampers. Power steering rack and lines. Tie rods. Motor mounts. (Pan gasket had just been done and the oil changed...which turns out to be important, in this story.) Clutch freshened. A/C system completely redone including interior diaphragms Various electrical problems....grounds gone through, relay board rebuilt, etc. And then the usual list of interior lights, rear trunk mechanism, etc., etc. Over 20K.

Client takes the car home and drives it sparingly for a few months. The only complaint....it uses water. Drives it a couple more months...occasional "Sunday" car. Still uses water....bit nothing on garage floor.

Oil in oil pan...milkshake.

Back it comes to the shop. Usual '87/'88 cracked heads (becoming more and more common....we suspect that virtually all of these models will end uo with cracked heads, in the future (*).) Rod bearings and maun bearings ruined from the anti-freeze, as expected. Cams worn, etc. Complete rebuilt with 2R heads. Over 20K.

The client now has over 80K in this car....and it could use some new shocks and control arms.

I can tell these 928 "horror" stories for hours on end....they are endless. As a matter of fact, these stories are so common, they are almost the norm, now. I've literally got an entire shop full of this stuff 24/7/365.


And you guys want to tell me that there's no market for a perfect S4, restored by one of the leading 928 experts in the country, in the 40K range?

(*) Sorry, but not all S4 models are the same!





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GT6ixer

GT6ixer