Introduction: Motul
#16
Point 1 : If a certain spec is important, I will not buy the product without that spec stated in an official datasheet (Datenblatt).
Point 2 : In addition, all oil manufactures are in a constant state of optimizing their juice. Without a spec that is "hopefully" updated, I have no way of catching the changes.
So in summary, your statement of **around 1300 ppm** is good today, but tomorrow, who knows?
Point 2 : In addition, all oil manufactures are in a constant state of optimizing their juice. Without a spec that is "hopefully" updated, I have no way of catching the changes.
So in summary, your statement of **around 1300 ppm** is good today, but tomorrow, who knows?
Part of the reason we sponsor this forum is to bring a level of insight to oil formulation that can benefit your cars and we can talk about those things further. If you have questions as it relates to the technical info, just drop us a line here or give us a ring -Nick
#18
Never ever use Motul oil. This is what happened to a BMW Alpina B10 4,6 V8, not once but twice. The very expensive oil Motul 300V Competetion 15W50 was used.
The car has always been used for long distance driving, no short trips, no additives, oil change intervals always within specs.
Åke
The car has always been used for long distance driving, no short trips, no additives, oil change intervals always within specs.
Åke
#19
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From: Rep of Texas, N NM, Rockies, SoCal
For regular street driving- yes. Please note this is a conventional oil. If you want to run a synthetic or a higher performing street product that's also suitable for track use, please use the 4100 Power 15W50 found here: https://www.motul.com/us/en-US/produ...00-power-15w50
-Nick
-Nick
#20
It’s intriguing to see when people speak of manufacturing specifications on oils when the car was designed 40 years ago.
The technology in use today from beating clearances and materials, to running temps and oil ring tensions are so vastly different from what was normal in 1978...
and in in most cases, even though I buy into some of the hype, even conventional parts store pop would be fine for what is actually happening in these motors.
The technology in use today from beating clearances and materials, to running temps and oil ring tensions are so vastly different from what was normal in 1978...
and in in most cases, even though I buy into some of the hype, even conventional parts store pop would be fine for what is actually happening in these motors.
#21
Different synthetic classes (group 3, 4, 5) are based on their viscosity index measurement before the introduction of viscosity index improvers. Differnet synthesizing processes are used to get to these higher viscosity indexes.
Motul oils are manufactured and imported from Europe and meet the global standard for a true synthetic. That’s why many of our oils are and can be labeled 100% synthetic vs other popular phrasing used by our competitors. -Nick
Last edited by Motul; 08-10-2018 at 02:52 AM.
#22
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From: Mostly in my workshop located in Sweden.
"From today's point of view, it is best to use a motor oil of the specification BMW Longlife 98 or Longlife 01 with the viscosity 5W40.
You can also use the BMW Motorsport Castrol EDGE Professional TWS 10W60 oil.
The 0Wx oils are too thin for this engine, especially with advanced mileage."
I have now changed to 10W60 oil.
Åke
#23
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From: Mostly in my workshop located in Sweden.
Hello,
That sludge build up is quite significant and has taken a long time to get to this point. This has been occurring for sometime.... While 300V is a racing oil, your oil change interval of 7500-10,000 km's is acceptable assuming there weren't excessive track days or something out of the ordinary.
There's 3 factors that can contribute to this if you're not doing anything outside the ordinary:
- CCV (crank case valve ventilation) failure- this is quite common on the E36/E34/E39/E46 etc*and can lead to significant oil sludging issues. Cold conditions will worsen this (higher concentration of condensation) Example of CCV failure: https://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=445227
- Short trips where the oil isn't getting up to temp under colder conditions
*these are BMW specific for excessive sludging issues
My questions are:
Have you ensured the CCV system is operating properly?
Can you confirm/deny that the driving is short trips?
Using such a high viscosity can exacerbate your symptoms, please provide reasons why a 15W50 is being used?
Can you provide more history?
How long or often have you used 300V on this car?
What product did you use aside from 300V?
-Nick
PS- in all my years in all environments, 300V has never looked like this under the most*servere*conditions imaginable (Dakar, Le Mans) unless there was a mechanical issue or user error.
The car has never seen any short trips and never been driven during wintertime.
The 300V 15W50 is the oil highly recommended by Motul for my 928 cars as well all my BMW cars. I have never used any other oil in these cars except for very many years ago. Started to use Motul oil in the late 1990s.
If my memory serves me well, the oil used in the Alpina causing the severe sludge was the last oil from a 60 liter container. Remember it looked a little bit out of the ordinary having some kind of lumps?
Åke
#24
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,249
Likes: 511
From: Mostly in my workshop located in Sweden.
Point 1 : If a certain spec is important, I will not buy the product without that spec stated in an official datasheet (Datenblatt).
Point 2 : In addition, all oil manufactures are in a constant state of optimizing their juice. Without a spec that is "hopefully" updated, I have no way of catching the changes.
So in summary, your statement of **around 1300 ppm** is good today, but tomorrow, who knows?
Point 2 : In addition, all oil manufactures are in a constant state of optimizing their juice. Without a spec that is "hopefully" updated, I have no way of catching the changes.
So in summary, your statement of **around 1300 ppm** is good today, but tomorrow, who knows?
Åke
#25
This is what Alpina say (Google translation from German):
"From today's point of view, it is best to use a motor oil of the specification BMW Longlife 98 or Longlife 01 with the viscosity 5W40.
You can also use the BMW Motorsport Castrol EDGE Professional TWS 10W60 oil.
The 0Wx oils are too thin for this engine, especially with advanced mileage."
I have now changed to 10W60 oil.
Åke
"From today's point of view, it is best to use a motor oil of the specification BMW Longlife 98 or Longlife 01 with the viscosity 5W40.
You can also use the BMW Motorsport Castrol EDGE Professional TWS 10W60 oil.
The 0Wx oils are too thin for this engine, especially with advanced mileage."
I have now changed to 10W60 oil.
Åke
That B10 is a very nice car indeed. Extremely rare here in Oz.
#26
That is quite a profound comment. When one normally uses lube oil one does so in relatively small containers such as the 4 litre units of Shell Helix 20W50 I use in my motor. It is a long time since I worked on the lube oil plant my principals built but one of the things I seem to remember is that lube oils do not like long term storage and when contained in drums on a rack the drums are rotated to keep the additive package evenly dispersed over time- to be clear I have no idea whether oils like this particular brew require such.
Assuming that an oil change takes 8 litres a 60 litre container will suffice at least 7 oil changes. No idea how many cars you have but if you have 4 cars and they sit unused over winter months it is quite conceivable that between when you opened the container and when you used the last oil in it a period of time up to 3 years may have expired. When you open the container and empty some oil the volume is displaced by air. How moist is the air in your environment? As a general note base stocks tend to be hygroscopic [to some extent at least] and with time the lube can degrade. How pertinent such is to the lube you used I do not know.
When in use lube oils typically some quite quickly can and do look "black". The reason for this is the oil tends to pick up microscopic particles of carbon or whatever else is floating around in the combustion chamber. The oil contains detergents to keep this particulate matter in suspension. If that mechanism fails then I would think that it is quite conceivable that such particulate matter will form a gel with cold oil and dump in the bottom of the sump - particularly so in cold climates- how cold does it get in your garage?
Doubtless our new friend from Motul will be able to expand on such concerns noting that some specialist [Racing?] lubes have some exceptional properties but such often come at the expense of other characteristics.
When I purchase my lube oil containers I look at the blending date and reject the purchase it if it is more than 6 months old. I work on the premise that our mid eighties designed engines were designed for 20W50 lube oils and change them after 1 year or 5k miles.* Last time I looked at my cams the lobes were perfect and the walls of the casing were very clean. My oil always looks blackish. My 928 rarely if ever sees a temperature less than 20C.
Kindest regards
Fred R
Last edited by FredR; 08-10-2018 at 12:46 PM.
#27
Never ever use Motul oil. This is what happened to a BMW Alpina B10 4,6 V8, not once but twice. The very expensive oil Motul 300V Competetion 15W50 was used.
The car has always been used for long distance driving, no short trips, no additives, oil change intervals always within specs.
Åke
The car has always been used for long distance driving, no short trips, no additives, oil change intervals always within specs.
Åke
The Motul 300V is one of the oils I have run succesfully in my two 944s and never had any problem, as many friends around.
I would guess you ran through bad luck with an engine that just did not like this oil.
#28
_______Thread Hijack alert______
to Nick:
I have been using 300v for many years (10+) since it turned out to be the only oil to survive the combustion process - covering the "butt" of my car with oil instead of soot. Fortunately, the Shark X-Vent CVS solved that problem once and for all but I kept using the 300V.
A bit more of background info:
- my car is a garage queen, sees maybe 3000 km per year,
- "cold start" is at room temps,
- no trip below 50km, usually 100-200 kms
- no stop and go
- cruises can be either of the relaxed sort (on country roads), or a bit more serious on the autobahn, occasionally, 30-60 minutes at around 4500U/min at temps up to 30degC.
- UOA after 1 and 2 years each said that the oil is fine to go on using (no degradation in VI, no unusual contamination with fuel or coolant, BI still almost like new , I am now on my third year (with a really bad conscience!).
One more factoid: I could never make my mind for either 15W15 and 20W60 so I always "blended" them 50:50 (call me what you want
I used to change to oil every year but since some friend came to use my old oil as "new", that made me wonder...
So my questions:
- is there a downside to mixing the two weights (15W15 and 20W60) or fo which should I go?
- Is there anything that a normal UOA wouldn't capture? I really don't mind changing the oil every year but I hate waste ...:
- Is the 300V the right sort of oil to use for my usage?
Any information would be greatly appreciated!
Kurt
____________
90 S4 satin black metallic
928 OC charter member
-
to Nick:
I have been using 300v for many years (10+) since it turned out to be the only oil to survive the combustion process - covering the "butt" of my car with oil instead of soot. Fortunately, the Shark X-Vent CVS solved that problem once and for all but I kept using the 300V.
A bit more of background info:
- my car is a garage queen, sees maybe 3000 km per year,
- "cold start" is at room temps,
- no trip below 50km, usually 100-200 kms
- no stop and go
- cruises can be either of the relaxed sort (on country roads), or a bit more serious on the autobahn, occasionally, 30-60 minutes at around 4500U/min at temps up to 30degC.
- UOA after 1 and 2 years each said that the oil is fine to go on using (no degradation in VI, no unusual contamination with fuel or coolant, BI still almost like new , I am now on my third year (with a really bad conscience!).
One more factoid: I could never make my mind for either 15W15 and 20W60 so I always "blended" them 50:50 (call me what you want
I used to change to oil every year but since some friend came to use my old oil as "new", that made me wonder...
So my questions:
- is there a downside to mixing the two weights (15W15 and 20W60) or fo which should I go?
- Is there anything that a normal UOA wouldn't capture? I really don't mind changing the oil every year but I hate waste ...:
- Is the 300V the right sort of oil to use for my usage?
Any information would be greatly appreciated!
Kurt
____________
90 S4 satin black metallic
928 OC charter member
-
#29
The engine has been completely taken apart. No abnormal wear could be found but oil sludge everywhere especially in the cylinder heads, the hydraulic lifters were all clogged by sludge. The CCV system has always been working properly. However it has now been replaced as I saw some hairline cracks in the membrane. Better replace before it starts leaking.
The car has never seen any short trips and never been driven during wintertime.
The 300V 15W50 is the oil highly recommended by Motul for my 928 cars as well all my BMW cars. I have never used any other oil in these cars except for very many years ago. Started to use Motul oil in the late 1990s.
If my memory serves me well, the oil used in the Alpina causing the severe sludge was the last oil from a 60 liter container. Remember it looked a little bit out of the ordinary having some kind of lumps?
Åke
The car has never seen any short trips and never been driven during wintertime.
The 300V 15W50 is the oil highly recommended by Motul for my 928 cars as well all my BMW cars. I have never used any other oil in these cars except for very many years ago. Started to use Motul oil in the late 1990s.
If my memory serves me well, the oil used in the Alpina causing the severe sludge was the last oil from a 60 liter container. Remember it looked a little bit out of the ordinary having some kind of lumps?
Åke
We are talking about Classic Performance 20W50- not 300V. Different products altogether. Elevated levels of ZDDP will help protect high lift cams and or flat tappet cams. Overhead-modern cam designs are actually quite easy on oil. The timing system however (chain, sprockets etc) are exposed to the main part of the abuse an engine takes these days. 300V will have around 1200ppm of ZDDP based on virgin oil analysis floating around on the web and I can confirm its accuracy. Also high in moly content for higher power making ability and engine efficiency. 300V is also fortified with sulfurized esters (sulfur is also an anti wear compound) for added protection in addition to high ZDDP levels.-Nick
Last edited by Motul; 08-10-2018 at 04:35 PM.
#30
_______Thread Hijack alert______
to Nick:
I have been using 300v for many years (10+) since it turned out to be the only oil to survive the combustion process - covering the "butt" of my car with oil instead of soot. Fortunately, the Shark X-Vent CVS solved that problem once and for all but I kept using the 300V.
A bit more of background info:
- my car is a garage queen, sees maybe 3000 km per year,
- "cold start" is at room temps,
- no trip below 50km, usually 100-200 kms
- no stop and go
- cruises can be either of the relaxed sort (on country roads), or a bit more serious on the autobahn, occasionally, 30-60 minutes at around 4500U/min at temps up to 30degC.
- UOA after 1 and 2 years each said that the oil is fine to go on using (no degradation in VI, no unusual contamination with fuel or coolant, BI still almost like new , I am now on my third year (with a really bad conscience!).
One more factoid: I could never make my mind for either 15W15 and 20W60 so I always "blended" them 50:50 (call me what you want
I used to change to oil every year but since some friend came to use my old oil as "new", that made me wonder...
So my questions:
- is there a downside to mixing the two weights (15W15 and 20W60) or fo which should I go?
- Is there anything that a normal UOA wouldn't capture? I really don't mind changing the oil every year but I hate waste ...:
- Is the 300V the right sort of oil to use for my usage?
Any information would be greatly appreciated!
Kurt
____________
90 S4 satin black metallic
928 OC charter member
-
to Nick:
I have been using 300v for many years (10+) since it turned out to be the only oil to survive the combustion process - covering the "butt" of my car with oil instead of soot. Fortunately, the Shark X-Vent CVS solved that problem once and for all but I kept using the 300V.
A bit more of background info:
- my car is a garage queen, sees maybe 3000 km per year,
- "cold start" is at room temps,
- no trip below 50km, usually 100-200 kms
- no stop and go
- cruises can be either of the relaxed sort (on country roads), or a bit more serious on the autobahn, occasionally, 30-60 minutes at around 4500U/min at temps up to 30degC.
- UOA after 1 and 2 years each said that the oil is fine to go on using (no degradation in VI, no unusual contamination with fuel or coolant, BI still almost like new , I am now on my third year (with a really bad conscience!).
One more factoid: I could never make my mind for either 15W15 and 20W60 so I always "blended" them 50:50 (call me what you want
I used to change to oil every year but since some friend came to use my old oil as "new", that made me wonder...
So my questions:
- is there a downside to mixing the two weights (15W15 and 20W60) or fo which should I go?
- Is there anything that a normal UOA wouldn't capture? I really don't mind changing the oil every year but I hate waste ...:
- Is the 300V the right sort of oil to use for my usage?
Any information would be greatly appreciated!
Kurt
____________
90 S4 satin black metallic
928 OC charter member
-
Thanks for the inquiry and using Motul.
Mixing 15W50/20W60: No problem here- you just made your own viscosity. The 15W50 is more than suitable for your application. The 20W60 is primarily used for cars with high fuel dilution. I did a quick viscosity calculation for you as well.- with the mix you're basically at a high viscosity 20W50 :
UOA details: A lot is left out of a UOA especially larger wear particles that get trapped in the filter. They will not show up in the UOA so inspect the filter closely for anything out of the ordinary.
300V choice: Sure if you don't mind spending the money. I think your practice of draining 1x a year is acceptable as 300V is not a long drain product and not meant for long period use as it is a motorsport product.
Hope that helps-Nick