Vibration after torque tube bearing job
03-28-2018, 11:42 PM
#31
Former Sponsor
Thanks Dave.
Problem is this, as our current President loves saying, is "fake news." Greg is just sticking it in for one of the two reasons above. If he really ever had a concern about what we were doing with the Super Bearing line, one would think he would have called me and discussed these concerns. Never ever happened after all these years, strange don't you think?
Vibrations in cars, especially aging 928s, are very hard to identify and I have spent my share of time trying to help 928 (and 944) owners with these issues. Sometimes I do help, other times it can't be diagnosed. And usually this was after I've talked them out of buying the Super Bearings to fix their vibration issue since they were at the end of their rope trying to fix it by other means.
No worries, products from Black Sea R&D will continue to be sold to those who want them and believe in them. However to those who expressed interest in buying this company, this is a sobering reality you must contend with since some seem to enjoy in it.
Problem is this, as our current President loves saying, is "fake news." Greg is just sticking it in for one of the two reasons above. If he really ever had a concern about what we were doing with the Super Bearing line, one would think he would have called me and discussed these concerns. Never ever happened after all these years, strange don't you think?
Vibrations in cars, especially aging 928s, are very hard to identify and I have spent my share of time trying to help 928 (and 944) owners with these issues. Sometimes I do help, other times it can't be diagnosed. And usually this was after I've talked them out of buying the Super Bearings to fix their vibration issue since they were at the end of their rope trying to fix it by other means.
No worries, products from Black Sea R&D will continue to be sold to those who want them and believe in them. However to those who expressed interest in buying this company, this is a sobering reality you must contend with since some seem to enjoy in it.
As I said, I think you make excellent products.
I simply do not agree with your arbitrary decision to eliminate the counterweights, just because you added weight to the bearings. There's more involved than just believing something is correct. Porsche spent a small fortune figuring out what they needed to add to the torque tube in order to absorb damaging harmonic vibrations. I need to know more than "I think because I'm adding more weight to the bearings, I can throw the counterweight away"', before I do that. Sorry, just not qualitative enough, for me.
You are sort of correct....
I do not have issues with torque tube harmonics,, because I choose to retain the factory counterweight when I rebuild torque tubes with your bearings.
We've never talked about this....because there has never been anything to discuss. You are free to believe and do as you please. I am free to do and believe what I please.
I choose to stick with what Porsche spent tens of thousands of dollars (and several months) figuring out. You can do what you choose.
I, quite frankly, do not understand why you are so upset... it's certainly no big deal....if you are correct....fantastic!
I just choose to not find out, on my client's vehicles.
03-29-2018, 12:33 AM
#32
Chronic Tool Dropper
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Curt will possibly note that the ideal blades have different PRIME numbers of blades. Makes prediction of resonances a lot easier.
The factory spent a bit of time developing the mass-loaded damper that lives at the rear of the tube. Purpose is the same as the harmonic balancer at the front of the engine -- dampen the torsional ringing that results from the uneven forces applied to the driveshaft. The excitation frequency varies with engine speed, and the magnitude of the excitation is related to load. It's possible but quite unlikely that it's what you are feeling. If you notice the noise with the gearbox in neutral and steady engine RPM, it's not the damper. Constantine attacks the problem indirectly, letting the pliable supports inside and outside the bearing dampen the vibration that would otherwise result from the twisting. As Greg mentioned, the combination of torsional vibrations will break the driveshaft,and also the tube if the bearings are rigidly "mounted" to the shaft and tube. ie: hardened rubber factory bearing supports. The ball bearings will quickly fret and gall, and fail from local heating when the lubricant is pushed out. The ball depends on maintaining a mini wedge of lubricant similar to the way a crankshaft rides in a plain main bearing. vibration destroys the ability of the lubricant to pack into a wedge, so you rather quickly get metal-to-metal contact. Constantine's bearings with new pliable supports and sleeves dramatically reduce that risk.
To the OP's problem: Car on lift, stethoscope in ears and fingers mounted on your hands, have your trusty assistant run the engine at the critical speeds, grabox in park or neutral and brakes set. Listen up and down the tube, and at the torque converter housing. Fingers too.
If you don't isolate the node point that way, go ahead and reindex the drive plate on the TC and try again. And again if needed.
Consider how you assembled everything and the possibility that the tube hung on the driveshaft on the way in or out. The front or rear drive plate may be bent, or the shaft itself may be bent. Easy enough to mark then unbolt the front drive plate, and check the shaft end there and the plate for runout. The rear will be a bit harder or impossible this way, and may require the gearbox to come down again for a definitive test/measurement for bending.
The factory spent a bit of time developing the mass-loaded damper that lives at the rear of the tube. Purpose is the same as the harmonic balancer at the front of the engine -- dampen the torsional ringing that results from the uneven forces applied to the driveshaft. The excitation frequency varies with engine speed, and the magnitude of the excitation is related to load. It's possible but quite unlikely that it's what you are feeling. If you notice the noise with the gearbox in neutral and steady engine RPM, it's not the damper. Constantine attacks the problem indirectly, letting the pliable supports inside and outside the bearing dampen the vibration that would otherwise result from the twisting. As Greg mentioned, the combination of torsional vibrations will break the driveshaft,and also the tube if the bearings are rigidly "mounted" to the shaft and tube. ie: hardened rubber factory bearing supports. The ball bearings will quickly fret and gall, and fail from local heating when the lubricant is pushed out. The ball depends on maintaining a mini wedge of lubricant similar to the way a crankshaft rides in a plain main bearing. vibration destroys the ability of the lubricant to pack into a wedge, so you rather quickly get metal-to-metal contact. Constantine's bearings with new pliable supports and sleeves dramatically reduce that risk.
To the OP's problem: Car on lift, stethoscope in ears and fingers mounted on your hands, have your trusty assistant run the engine at the critical speeds, grabox in park or neutral and brakes set. Listen up and down the tube, and at the torque converter housing. Fingers too.
If you don't isolate the node point that way, go ahead and reindex the drive plate on the TC and try again. And again if needed.
Consider how you assembled everything and the possibility that the tube hung on the driveshaft on the way in or out. The front or rear drive plate may be bent, or the shaft itself may be bent. Easy enough to mark then unbolt the front drive plate, and check the shaft end there and the plate for runout. The rear will be a bit harder or impossible this way, and may require the gearbox to come down again for a definitive test/measurement for bending.
03-29-2018, 08:09 AM
#33
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It would be easy to lose control on the way out or back in, and perhaps bend something. But the procedure is to unbolt the coupler from the front flex plate before unbolting the TT and bell housing, and after re-bolting those items on re-installation, so I don't think anything can get bent up front. As said, the engine is free - perhaps too free - to move around to take up the small misalignment of the transaxle while it's disconnected from the rear cross-member. I was plenty nervous about the ratchet straps holding it up - yes, plural - I used two.
The TT is removed from (and re-installed to) the converter housing while on the ground, while it's flex plate is disconnected to the TC. I did lose control of the forward end of the TT once, but only after all was bolted at the rear. It's an awkward thing to handle, and I wish I'd spent more time to make a proper cart, with the means to adjust tilt. As it was, I had a rolling platform with cribbing for the transaxle, and a precarious setup with a furniture dolly for the forward end of the TT. Not so precarious as the two floor jacks for the procedure from jack stands.
I reused my original driveshaft. I did not check it for straightness other than note that it spun nicely in the old bearings, but it was handy for prying the front loader off the Unimog. Just kidding.
I'm surprised to hear that the TT itself might suffer from its own vibration modes. It must have about 100X greater stiffness than the driveshaft, and it don't spin. What modes are we worried about? I was assuming the main concern was for the whipping modes of the driveshaft, so the damper has me confused: it's for torsional dampening? It's not in contact with the shaft... Anyway, the nerdy questions are 1) what is the source of the 35 Hz excitation frequency (2100 cycles/minute), and 2) what's resonating with it? There will be a panel discussion on this topic at Camp 928.
Perhaps I should just drive it again, then move it into its proper place in the "showroom" end of the new garage. It's not quite yet driving season, though the frost heaves are good for settling the suspension.
The TT is removed from (and re-installed to) the converter housing while on the ground, while it's flex plate is disconnected to the TC. I did lose control of the forward end of the TT once, but only after all was bolted at the rear. It's an awkward thing to handle, and I wish I'd spent more time to make a proper cart, with the means to adjust tilt. As it was, I had a rolling platform with cribbing for the transaxle, and a precarious setup with a furniture dolly for the forward end of the TT. Not so precarious as the two floor jacks for the procedure from jack stands.
I reused my original driveshaft. I did not check it for straightness other than note that it spun nicely in the old bearings, but it was handy for prying the front loader off the Unimog. Just kidding.
I'm surprised to hear that the TT itself might suffer from its own vibration modes. It must have about 100X greater stiffness than the driveshaft, and it don't spin. What modes are we worried about? I was assuming the main concern was for the whipping modes of the driveshaft, so the damper has me confused: it's for torsional dampening? It's not in contact with the shaft... Anyway, the nerdy questions are 1) what is the source of the 35 Hz excitation frequency (2100 cycles/minute), and 2) what's resonating with it? There will be a panel discussion on this topic at Camp 928.
Perhaps I should just drive it again, then move it into its proper place in the "showroom" end of the new garage. It's not quite yet driving season, though the frost heaves are good for settling the suspension.
03-29-2018, 08:45 AM
#34
Calm down.
As I said, I think you make excellent products.
I simply do not agree with your arbitrary decision to eliminate the counterweights, just because you added weight to the bearings. There's more involved than just believing something is correct. Porsche spent a small fortune figuring out what they needed to add to the torque tube in order to absorb damaging harmonic vibrations. I need to know more than "I think because I'm adding more weight to the bearings, I can throw the counterweight away"', before I do that. Sorry, just not qualitative enough, for me.
You are sort of correct....
I do not have issues with torque tube harmonics,, because I choose to retain the factory counterweight when I rebuild torque tubes with your bearings.
We've never talked about this....because there has never been anything to discuss. You are free to believe and do as you please. I am free to do and believe what I please.
I choose to stick with what Porsche spent tens of thousands of dollars (and several months) figuring out. You can do what you choose.
I, quite frankly, do not understand why you are so upset... it's certainly no big deal....if you are correct....fantastic!
I just choose to not find out, on my client's vehicles.
As I said, I think you make excellent products.
I simply do not agree with your arbitrary decision to eliminate the counterweights, just because you added weight to the bearings. There's more involved than just believing something is correct. Porsche spent a small fortune figuring out what they needed to add to the torque tube in order to absorb damaging harmonic vibrations. I need to know more than "I think because I'm adding more weight to the bearings, I can throw the counterweight away"', before I do that. Sorry, just not qualitative enough, for me.
You are sort of correct....
I do not have issues with torque tube harmonics,, because I choose to retain the factory counterweight when I rebuild torque tubes with your bearings.
We've never talked about this....because there has never been anything to discuss. You are free to believe and do as you please. I am free to do and believe what I please.
I choose to stick with what Porsche spent tens of thousands of dollars (and several months) figuring out. You can do what you choose.
I, quite frankly, do not understand why you are so upset... it's certainly no big deal....if you are correct....fantastic!
I just choose to not find out, on my client's vehicles.
If I were one of your clients, I would be very unhappy about your "arbitrary decision" to put that old piece of technology back into the torque tube with the Super Bearings. The dampeners come part and will cause damage and problems later. That's why the Super Bearings were carefully designed to update the torque tube system to a better standard.
There are now thousands of Super Bearings being used around the world, some in race cars, with no problems to date.
Your questioning of our Super Bearings now, and the Super Clamp in the past, is very tiresome and really has nothing to do with any real concerns. They work as designed and very well for their intended purpose. It is just your way of bullying on this forum, a trait you have exhibited before with others.
Maybe it is you who should "calm down."
Last edited by Constantine; 03-29-2018 at 12:58 PM.
03-29-2018, 01:40 PM
#35
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Back on-topic:
I assumed this too, for many years until spending over a year chasing Brian’s (brb-83-911sc) vibration.
Just how profound though? It isn’t an indictment of the Volvo mounts as I have only one data point. However, the cost of gathering that datum was too expensive for me to ignore it.
As a result, after the experience with Brian’s ‘84, now, whenever I take a TT out I always keep the engine supported and level on the mounts rather than allowing it to droop forward regardless of the make of motor mount.
Curt, it is easy to isolate a motor mount problem: make an ‘emergency motor mount.’ Use your saws-all to cut out a tread section from an old tire of sufficient size to cover the area of the engine carrier between the mounts. Jack-up the engine just enough to stick the section between the carrier and the oil pan. You might need two stacked tread sections. Then go drive and see if the vibration changes non-trivially.
03-29-2018, 03:01 PM
#37
Rennlist Member
Given it takes little effort to do that it seems cheap insurance irrespective of the merits- now etched into my grey matter for when I eventually need to do the torque tube with Constantine's super bearings. Thanks for sharing.
03-29-2018, 03:20 PM
#38
Back on-topic:
I assumed this too, for many years until spending over a year chasing Brian’s (brb-83-911sc) vibration.
I assumed this too, for many years until spending over a year chasing Brian’s (brb-83-911sc) vibration.
Just how profound though? It isn’t an indictment of the Volvo mounts as I have only one data point. However, the cost of gathering that datum was too expensive for me to ignore it.
As a result, after the experience with Brian’s ‘84, now, whenever I take a TT out I always keep the engine supported and level on the mounts rather than allowing it to droop forward regardless of the make of motor mount.
Curt, it is easy to isolate a motor mount problem: make an ‘emergency motor mount.’ Use your saws-all to cut out a tread section from an old tire of sufficient size to cover the area of the engine carrier between the mounts. Jack-up the engine just enough to stick the section between the carrier and the oil pan. You might need two stacked tread sections. Then go drive and see if the vibration changes non-trivially.
03-29-2018, 03:30 PM
#39
Former Sponsor
If I were one of your clients, I would be very unhappy about your "arbitrary decision" to put that old piece of technology back into the torque tube with the Super Bearings. The dampeners come part and will cause damage and problems later. That's why the Super Bearings were carefully designed to update the torque tube system to a better standard.
There are now thousands of Super Bearings being used around the world, some in race cars, with no problems to date.
Your questioning of our Super Bearings, and the Super Clamp in the past, is very tiresome and really has nothing to do with any real concerns. They work as designed and very well for their intended purpose. It is just your way of bullying on this forum, a trait you have exhibited before with others.
Maybe it is you who should "calm down."
There are now thousands of Super Bearings being used around the world, some in race cars, with no problems to date.
Your questioning of our Super Bearings, and the Super Clamp in the past, is very tiresome and really has nothing to do with any real concerns. They work as designed and very well for their intended purpose. It is just your way of bullying on this forum, a trait you have exhibited before with others.
Maybe it is you who should "calm down."
I do not see how I choose to assemble torque tubes, 3000 miles away from you, affects you in any way, shape, or form.
How my personal decision to assemble things makes me a "bully" is absolutely absurd!
I tell you what....you show me a single scientific piece of paper that shows your bearings eliminate the need for the counterweight....and I'll quit putting them back in.
One single qualitative harmonic test, professionally performed, to show that your bearings eliminate the harmonics that made Porsche install the damper and I'd GLADLY quit installing the damper.
Certainly you had a test performed before you made the decision to not re-install the counterweight?
Something to back up your actions....so it isn't just some "arbitrary" thing you decided to do?
Up to that point, I'll keep installing the Porsche harmonic absorber (which, as I said, has absolutely no affect on you or your products.)
It's simply my free choice.
Last edited by GregBBRD; 03-29-2018 at 05:12 PM.
03-29-2018, 09:19 PM
#40
03-29-2018, 09:52 PM
#41
Drifting
Curt - I'll look for my thread on a vibration I was hunting for after doing Volvo motor mounts and Porsche trans mounts. I never found contact between the motor mount "fingers" but it seemed the most logical source so bent them anyway. Turned out unnecessary. The entire drive train was sitting higher on new mounts front and after...and part EDIT: exhaust...not transmission... was lightly touching the heat shields. To find it I used black spray paint on an area that included a spot that looked like it was rubbed (clean of dirt). sure enough, a quick drive and there was a nice shiny spot in the middle of the black paint.
I skipped to the end when the discussion went off topic....last report from you I read stated the noise was subsiding. I would expect this as things settle in and "center" themselves. If it doesn't go away completely, try looking at the rear as I described...the sound traveled forward through the torque tube...thus all the focus on the motor mounts.
I skipped to the end when the discussion went off topic....last report from you I read stated the noise was subsiding. I would expect this as things settle in and "center" themselves. If it doesn't go away completely, try looking at the rear as I described...the sound traveled forward through the torque tube...thus all the focus on the motor mounts.
Last edited by Captain_Slow; 03-30-2018 at 01:29 PM.
03-30-2018, 12:35 PM
#43
First if all, i've never questioned either your bearings or torque tube clamp...at anytime. You make high quality pieces...no question...never was a question. While there are other torque tube clamps I could use, I choose to use your clamp, whenever I have the choice to do so. I use your bearings, exclusively! I no.longer buy "rebuilt" torque tubes...I had too many issues with bearing migration and failure in low mileage situations for those to be of any use.
I do not see how I choose to assemble torque tubes, 3000 miles away from you, affects you in any way, shape, or form.
How my personal decision to assemble things makes me a "bully" is absolutely absurd!
I tell you what....you show me a single scientific piece of paper that shows your bearings eliminate the need for the counterweight....and I'll quit putting them back in.
One single qualitative harmonic test, professionally performed, to show that your bearings eliminate the harmonics that made Porsche install the damper and I'd GLADLY quit installing the damper.
Certainly you had a test performed before you made the decision to not re-install the counterweight?
Something to back up your actions....so it isn't just some "arbitrary" thing you decided to do?
Up to that point, I'll keep installing the Porsche harmonic absorber (which, as I said, has absolutely no affect on you or your products.)
It's simply my free choice.
I do not see how I choose to assemble torque tubes, 3000 miles away from you, affects you in any way, shape, or form.
How my personal decision to assemble things makes me a "bully" is absolutely absurd!
I tell you what....you show me a single scientific piece of paper that shows your bearings eliminate the need for the counterweight....and I'll quit putting them back in.
One single qualitative harmonic test, professionally performed, to show that your bearings eliminate the harmonics that made Porsche install the damper and I'd GLADLY quit installing the damper.
Certainly you had a test performed before you made the decision to not re-install the counterweight?
Something to back up your actions....so it isn't just some "arbitrary" thing you decided to do?
Up to that point, I'll keep installing the Porsche harmonic absorber (which, as I said, has absolutely no affect on you or your products.)
It's simply my free choice.
Your decision can have bad effects to our products later if/when the OE vibration dampener comes apart. Obligatory picture attached of failed OE dampener with damage done to the drive shaft from the weight rubbing against it. We have a warranty and unfortunately in this scenario no one will focus on what you did, just that the Super Bearings were involved and it is our problem. Can't you see that?
Curt,
Of the times when vibrations were found after a torque tube R&R with our products, it has always been found to be another source and nothing to do with our products. Other's who have already posted about their similar circumstances highlight this and is something we have worked through with other clients. Good luck with the hunt.
03-30-2018, 01:31 PM
#44
Former Sponsor
Greg,
Your decision can have bad effects to our products later if/when the OE vibration dampener comes apart. Obligatory picture attached of failed OE dampener with damage done to the drive shaft from the weight rubbing against it. We have a warranty and unfortunately in this scenario no one will focus on what you did, just that the Super Bearings were involved and it is our problem. Can't you see that?
That being said, the rubber is generally 25-30 years old. (I do not think I've seen any "GTS" vehicles with bad rubber on the dampers....yet.)
Certainly, no one is going to call either of us up, when bearings, rubbers on the damper, or even shafts go bad...after 25 more years.
I think it is important for both you, and any readers, to realize I'm a "big picture" 928 person. I repair and restore these cars....and have been actively doing that for over 40 years, at this point. What that means is I "get" to see every single part on these 928 vehicles....and study what deteriorates on each and every component....and how individual components affect other components.
One of the alarming trends I've been seeing, over the past 10 years or so, is main bearing deterioration...significant deterioration I've not seen in the past. And not deterioration because of mileage...but deterioration because of age (high mileage engines 10-15 years ago had no signs of harmonic damage on the blocks or cradles.)
This deterioration appears to be from harmonics....fretting of the cradles and blocks. Strange inconsistent wear on the main bearings.
As you may be aware, I make replacement front dampers to replace the "rock hard" original dampers to help with this issue. (Original dampers which are no longer able to absorb harmonics are commonplace.)
Look....I have no information why Porsche decided to install that big counterweight in the torque tube....other than it was installed to control harmonics. I have no idea what these harmonics were....nor what component/components were being affected that caused Porsche to add that damper.
However, I am smart enough to know that the torque tube is solidly bolted to the engine. And on automatic cars (which ALL have counterweights), the torque tube shaft is securely attached to the crankshaft.
"Solidly bolted" and "securely attached" mean, to me, that harmonics are going to be transfered...pure physics.
Which brings up the realistic question: "Is the deterioration of the rubbers supporting the counterweight (and the resulting reduction of the counterweight's ability to absorb harmonics) adding to the engine deterioration I'm seeing?
For me, the very obvious answer is a resounding:"Yes, it might be."
Therefore, I'm certainly not about to remove that counterweight without some sort of engineering harmonic study, just because someone says it is OK because they "think" their heavier bearings do that job.
Instead, I'm going to "error" on the side of logic. There is absolutely no downside to that decision!
You "see" one tiny component of the 928....the torque tubes. You don't get to see how this single component "interacts" with the rest of the vehicle...
I understand this....completely.
However, I have the "benefit" of seeing every single detail regarding these vehicles....and I choose to do things differently. My decision to retain the counterweight has zero affect on you....or your products.
The same is true for you...you can do sell and do whatever you please....what you do has zero affect on me.
How all of the above makes me a "bully" is way beyond my grasp of reality!
Last edited by GregBBRD; 03-30-2018 at 04:36 PM.
03-30-2018, 05:49 PM
#45
I am a big picture guy too and have always looked at the whole of a system when designing our products, which as you may know encompass other Porsche models with torque tubes.
Porsche placed a heavy weight in the torque tube to add weight since it is a lightweight assembly without it. The OE bearing units are light weight and do nothing to quell the harmonics of the solid steel shaft that it absorbs from the engine through the flywheel and front flex plate. As you know, the automatic versions have very little weight at their flywheel to absorb engine harmonics. That's why when we designed our Super Clamps, we decided to give it some weight to help calm the harmonics down at the flex plate besides clamping onto the drive shaft and keeping it in place.
The Super Bearings were designed to add back the weight of the vibration dampener which we strongly advocate against re-using due to their age and failure rate. Three Super Bearings replace the weight of the OE dampener that was figured out by Porsche through its research. We didn't change that. The Super Bearings also help to control/absorb the drive shaft harmonics coming from the engine. This is done by the increased rubber both on the outside and inside of each Super Bearing. They each are harmonic sinks that also help support the long drive shaft throughout its entire length. This is something that is our design and a departure from Porsche since there is no downside to controlling more vibrations.
The problems you are seeing in the engine seems like more of an outcome of the hardening of the front dampener you have noticed since that is it's main purpose and is attached to the crank. Completely understand looking down range to other possible causes, but our Super Bearings are better at controlling more vibrations than the OE dampener.
Don't believe any of the above will change your mind, but understand that a lot of research went into their design than just doodling something on a piece of paper because it looked cool.
"Bully" might have been a strong term, however from this side of the computer screen, it does come across that way at times.
Porsche placed a heavy weight in the torque tube to add weight since it is a lightweight assembly without it. The OE bearing units are light weight and do nothing to quell the harmonics of the solid steel shaft that it absorbs from the engine through the flywheel and front flex plate. As you know, the automatic versions have very little weight at their flywheel to absorb engine harmonics. That's why when we designed our Super Clamps, we decided to give it some weight to help calm the harmonics down at the flex plate besides clamping onto the drive shaft and keeping it in place.
The Super Bearings were designed to add back the weight of the vibration dampener which we strongly advocate against re-using due to their age and failure rate. Three Super Bearings replace the weight of the OE dampener that was figured out by Porsche through its research. We didn't change that. The Super Bearings also help to control/absorb the drive shaft harmonics coming from the engine. This is done by the increased rubber both on the outside and inside of each Super Bearing. They each are harmonic sinks that also help support the long drive shaft throughout its entire length. This is something that is our design and a departure from Porsche since there is no downside to controlling more vibrations.
The problems you are seeing in the engine seems like more of an outcome of the hardening of the front dampener you have noticed since that is it's main purpose and is attached to the crank. Completely understand looking down range to other possible causes, but our Super Bearings are better at controlling more vibrations than the OE dampener.
Don't believe any of the above will change your mind, but understand that a lot of research went into their design than just doodling something on a piece of paper because it looked cool.
"Bully" might have been a strong term, however from this side of the computer screen, it does come across that way at times.