Ramp

OK, OK ! Needed a push from the community. Merlin - I hear you loud and clear just a bit hesitant to tackle this alone (You're not too far - want to come up and lend a hand ! lol - thanks.) I'll do the TB/WP now -although I do need to move it out of the garage tomorrow as I'm installing a new sport exhaust on the 911 - then I'll put it back on the lift for the TB/WP. The car was driven regularly until about a year ago when the PO passed - then it sat in his garage. I would bet though that he never did much maintenance other than oil changes (like I mentioned, the oil looks fresh) I've already printed out 4 TB guides.

Davek9 - I would love to pull the engine but that's a bit more than I can handle alone and I am in the process of planning that for the 911 next winter - which should actually be easier than the TB/WP

Can the group help with some initial decisions so I can start the parts order:

PKT - I've read some of the threads on the PKT but what I don't get is why I shouldn't convert from OEM system ? I haven't heard of any failures and it negates the need to take everything apart again just to check proper tension after install.
Air pump or delete ? If there is no real benefit for deleting, I'm inclined to just leave it - although I was always under the impression that less belts was good.
Water pump = lasko with non-metal impeller - correct ?

Any other initial decisions ? I can wait to see the condition of the crank seal before deciding on that.

Also, can I get some help on what materials to get, gasket sealant, different loctite, etc ? - People seem to have preferences and since I don't I figure to use the collective judgment.

Thanks again for the continued support - I'll use this thread to post periodic updates and seek continuing advice.

Ramp

Mrmerlin

Better yet check the belt/ tighten the belt, then ship it to me on a flatbed,
I will have it done in a month then you can drive it home and use it for the next 5 years.

Ramp

Thanks for the offer Merlin but most of the fun is rising to the challenge and doing it yourself !

Crumpler

Hey, nice garage BTW.

I've sorted a 86.5 the hard way, learned as I went with the help of the experts.
You will find good threads on all these topics here.
Some of the choices, like the stock tensioner v. PKT, are religious debates with no right answer.

If Randy was here, he would tell you to become a member, and you'll get the additional benefits of the brotherhood...

Mrmerlin

Well their is this ....but most of the fun is rising to the challenge and doing it yourself !

And the payoff is driving the car when you want to ,

NOTE some owners have had their shadow sitting for more than a year in the garage/.NTTIAWWT

BUT I am all for the owner opening the hood and making things right.
Goodluck on your restoration.

Wisconsin Joe

Point #1 - You aren't alone. You will likely have issues and problems. Especially the first time. You say you have several writeups, that's a good start. Any issues that you have, come back here. As a "user" you have a limited amount of pics you can post, but you can post them. So when you get stuck, take a (fairly low res) pic and ask. As long as you ask nicely, respond to the "well, check this, come back and tell us what you find", say 'thanks' and make sure you follow up with what happened in the end (I hate issues that the OP never posts the end), then you will get plenty of good advice.

Point #2 - Parts and the 'little stuff'.
Step 1 - call or email Roger Tyson at 928s R Us. He's on here as "ROG100" and is a site sponsor. Tell him "I'm doing a TB/WP on an 86.5. Send me what I need." If you aren't certain, have him email you the spreadsheet of what the job entails/requires. He is a well known and respected vendor, as well as an owner and enthusiast (even if he doesn't like stirring the "pudding basin"). Hew knows these cars very well and does this on a regular basis.
Step 2 - Wait for the package to arrive.
Step 3 - Do the job. You will have everything you need.

As far as the crank seal (and the cam gears too), you may want to do a "disassemble and inspect, then order parts, then reassemble". Roger has this stuff in stock (at least he should) and if you order on Monday, you will have it in time to put together the following weekend.

Point #3 - PKT vs Factory Tensioner: Crumpler's comment about religion is pretty accurate.
Why not? It's not original. The vaunted 'Porsche Engineers' never felt a hydraulic tensioner was needed (although they put one on the 968 motor, and they didn't develop a few other areas on the later 928 motors that could really have used it).
The mounting bracket has been shown to have a couple issues, and has been revised a couple of times. The factory unit has worked for millions of miles on tens of thousands of cars. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Some of the well known and well respected folks (people who work on these cars for a living) prefer the original.

Why? Set and forget. Dynamic tensioning that adjusts for belt stretch and varying conditions. The factory tensioner only adjusts for temperature. Lower overall tension. Less wear and tear on the gears, WP bearing, various other rotating stuff. Every other modern engine out there runs a hydraulic tensioner.

Your car, your choice. Roger sells both the PKT and what you need to rebuild the old one.
Disclaimer: I have no association with Ken or Porsche whatsoever. I have no stake in what choice you make. I run a PKT in my 85 Euro (16 valve).

Point #4 - Sealants/Locktite/ect. Blue Locktite (or what ever brand you prefer, I use Permatex myself), Anti seize (both copper and nickle, again brand isn't really an issue) and PTFE sealant for the block drains and that one tensioner bolt that goes into the water jacket. The writeups tell you what to use where. I think the WP gasket goes on dry (someone will correct me if I'm wrong). Locktite on the stuff that doesn't get really tight and you don't want to loosen up. Anti seize on the stuff that gets fairly tight and you want to be able to get loose. Most of it's pretty intuitive.

davek9

From the look of your garage I figured you were not afraid and familiar with turning a wrench or two
And after having done my share of working under the engine in the car to do the oil pan and all AND if you have to do the T-belt AND some intake refreshing...etc.
It makes it all go faster and easier to just pull it and get it done and running w/in the next two months, but I hear you and still assist those that want to do it all in-place and in sections.
Just be prepared for a lot of bending over aluminum fenders and crap falling in your face in tight spaces, I'll even go so far to bet you a beer that after it's all done you will wish you did it in batch mode.

So here is your starting punch list:
Disco the batt
Jack up car (level) not too high at first as you need to work from the top.
Drain all fluids, pull the rad,
get a FW lock and lock Crank to 45 degrees before TDC
Read up on doing a T-belt job
Then everything comes off the front of the engine.
clean all.
(still not too late to pull it at this point
Follow the write-ups and read more than one.

Post pic's we can give you support.

As far as the Air Pump (if your state doesn't require it, remove it all) get some new Hi-flow CATS that don't need fresh air it during warm up, or if you want an extra 15 to 30 HP remove cats and install an X and keep the engine in-tune.
The PK-tensioner work w/o issue I have never see one fail, if not having the light brothers you, just check the belt once per year as you need to do that anyway w/ the stock system.
Note that new cars still use long T belts, however non of them have a warning system or a static belt tensioner like that 70's design stock one. So what does that say about which one to use

Keep us posted on your progress

Dave K

Ramp

Great advice and help, thanks to all. I’m diving in. First order of business is to show support to the community and become a member - Done. Second will be to read the guides again over the weekend and get her in position on the lift for the next month or so (after the new Dansk exhaust –arriving today - goes on the 911). Third will be to place the parts order on Monday – I have until then to decide on tensioner and air pump.

I’m at work so have access to a color printer and just printed out a couple more TB Guides, and Scott Yoo’s Guide (Hadn’t seen that one before, thanks W-Joe) (My wife is scratching her head about why I asked her to shop around for a kiddie pool – I told her I’d explain later.)

Thanks to all for the encouragement to tackle this.

dr bob

Kinda breezed through the posts here and wanted to remind you that fuel line replacement is high on the "before you drive it" list. There are horror stories, as there are from the air-cooled folks, about how devastating a fuel-fueled fire can be. Get the right stuff with your timing belt/water pump kit.

The coolant hoses were pretty robust on your car when it was built over 30 years ago. Now maybe not so robust. Since you'll be completely draining the coolant from the block (including the galley drains) for the water pump replacement, and the radiator will be removed, cleaned and inspected, now is the perfect time to baseline hose life again. Besides the big radiator hoses, there are coolant hoses to and from the heater core, a short section below the coolant reservoir, a heater control valve connecting hose and the valve itself, a front heater hose section to the water bridge, plus two vapor return hoses to the front of the reservoir. Replace the thermostat and the two thermostat seals at the same time. Use good coolant (Zerex G05, Genuine Porsche/VW Blue) and the aluminum block and the head gaskets will thank you profusely.

The power steering hoses tend to get crispy with age and heat exposure. You'll have the power steering reservoir loose and flopping around on a couple of those hoses, plus the pump will be loose and the alternator will be removed from the console making acess as easy as it will ever be for pressure hose replacement. The pressure hose is a crapshoot, but only for when to do it -- part of the water pump/TB now, or when you drop the crossmember for the motor mounts and oil sump gasket. I vote now, since the pump end is the most fun to access. The system uses Dexron ATF, and the filter is part of the reservoir (replace the whole thing as service part).

FWIW, I plan a day for the belt, tensioner rebuild, water pump, etc. project. I work slowly and carefully, so it takes me a little longer. I do lots of cleaning before and during the project 'cuz I don't like getting my hands or the tools dirty.

Stan (MrMerlin) is a tremendous asset to our community, and freely offers his excellent advice and guidance here. He also makes his living working on the cars professionally, explaining his "do it right!" philosophy when it comes to keeping the cars safe and reliable. Follow his guidance, and know you have a very capable backstop if you find yourself in a corner.

Ramp

Decided to go with the PKT and leave the air pump as is - unless I find a reason not to while doing the TB/WP. Will also check the fuel lines and power steering lines. Thanks for the encouragement. Car is re-positioned and ready once parts arrive.

dr bob

Will also check the fuel lines and power steering lines.

Plan on replacing the PS and fuel hoses based on age. Checking the lines is something you've done already so the parts will arrive together. Fuel system and power-steering fluid fires are too common on these cars as they age. If you pop the question on them here, more than several will share pictures and recovery costs for their cars. Most of them end up scrap, and the owners disappear, since the repair costs easily exceed market value. The power steering lines loop along the driver's side fenderwall right over the exhaust, and follow the header pipe down toward sthe connections at the steering rack. The hoses are robust but heat and age work to encourage failure. Too often that includes spraying fluid on the exhaust, where the flashpoint is quickly exceeded. Watch a few of the 928 fire videos and know that a left front corner fire is likely from leaking PS lines. Don't delay, don't go cheap. You can usually get the original hoses rebuilt very reasonably at hose places like Pirtek.

The fuel hoses are a little more fun. The jumper between the rear regulator and damper needs careful routing and the correct hose. Roger at 928SRUS has a Greg Brown-supplied hose for that location. I'm pretty sure the front jumper is still available as a factory part. Roger will guide you on the options.

Do it now.

Ramp

dr Bob - I'm pretty sure I have some seepage from the PS lines but think it's from the rack area - will check as I move forward. Fuel lines will come later - I'm also thinking of draining and flushing the tank in place as I think I have sediment.

I plan on cleaning/reconditioning some parts as I go - today I cleaned and media blasted the belly pan - any suggestions on paint or is a high temp flat black sufficient ?

M. Requin

I bought my 86.5 in '06, after joining and doing due diligence here on RL. I have done all the work on it myself (for better or worse), and am coming up on 90,000 miles that I have put on it of about 220K total. (Also have a scissors lift and love it, many jobs would not have been possible for this 75 year old body without it.) So that is the background for this advice: there is no checking the fuel lines at this point in that car's life. Replacing them should be your first priority, shared with the TB/WP.

Crumpler

I agree with Martin (he's a good man). There's just no margin for error with fuel lines.
I would just do it. It's a straight forward swap out on the 86.5, very little time involved.
There are numerous threads on the kits and fittings, but if it's in the budget do Greg Brown's lines. They are plug and play and you can forget about it afterwards.

Watch the PS leak, you have ATF in there, which I didn't even realize was flammable until several years ago .
You should be okay for now if a little ooze at PS pump or resi.

bureau13

I think you mentioned the crank seal. If you need to replace it (and it's not a bad idea at this point) it's not that hard if you know what you're doing. I didn't, so every time I'd get stuck I'd come in and post on my ongoing TB/WP thread and get some great advice by the good folks here.

Regarding water pump choices, I'm a proponent of getting a Guardian water pump if you're using a PKT. Since you lose the belt tension warning (although someone is trying out a clever method of getting that functionality back) the Guardian solves one of the problems that a belt tension light helps solve....seized pump bearing breaking your timing belt. Something to think about: Send me a PM if you want more info, or maybe Ed will see this and chime in.

One advantage of ditching the air pump is that it's a lot easier to get to the AC compressor fittings with that thing gone.