Warren928

I am really anxious to start on the S/C journey with my S3. So who has an S3 with an intercooled supercharger? Who has a non-intercooled S3 that wants the conversion? Has anyone done air-air or air-water.

I keep thinking theres someone out there who has done an air-air intercooler with a stock intake plenum for the S3, it just makes sense to me.

Does anyone have an idea on their S4 how much HP is lost from heat soaking on a air-water unit?
Could a person tuck an air-water cooler just after the vortech unit or just before the MAF to avoid fitting a S4 manifold? I would think that theres enough space if someone had an alternative design.

A few people said they were working on it a couple of months back. So how are kits coming? If anyone has done a DIY project, please share some drawings for plumbing routing and components that would work for the application.

Lets see what the experts have to say too about what could be done here. Im looking forward to it.

Shane

One option would be to hang an intercooler down low under the supercharger between the radiator and engine. Can't imagine it would be super efficient there. I heard FAST is working on something along these lines. I know Delta P is also, just not where. Then there is the roots route that Andy has which frees up a lot of room by doing away with the stock intake all together. Be interesting to see what becomes of that once Andy and his stablemate get that project started.

GoRideSno

I will have 10 manifolds made as early a week from today and not later than the next weekend after that. The intercoolers should be finished a week after that, or if someone didn't want to wait I could make some immediately. The pulleys may take as long as early Jan to be finished, but I could definately have some sooner. About half of what is being made is already claimed by buyers. We will be installing a system on an 86.5 later Dec or early Jan, right MSpiegle?

Andy K

onebad928s

Andy,
Last i talked to F-A-S-T they were trying to make a front mount air to air. Also i understand on 16v with the AFM theres been restrictions and problems so why not put the AFM before SC instead of after.Also the fuel is controlled by the computer as for rich/lean on the earlier cars so the local speed shop recommended to go with bigger injectors instead of stock since stock only provides to a maximum HP. Also either advance or retard is also controlled by computer (definitely 83-84 US) he suggested a msd timing box control. atleast thats if you run with a vortech set up.What do you think?Im also thinking of hybrid kit.I went on renegades site and they have kits that suit upto chevy 502s. Relative of mine has a 502 in his chevelle that he doesn't drive (to much motor for him) It was dynoed max at a little over 750 hp. Imagine that in the 928.

Lou
83 928 5speed

GoRideSno

Lou,
This is a very logical solution. My already designed systems work this way, as will the L jet system.

I think the hard part will be finding larger injectors compatable w/ the L jet system. I don't know the flow rate of the stock injectors or the duty cycle but a boost sensative rising rate FPR will get you up to ??? hp on the stock injectors. Supplemental injectors controlled with something like the MF2 may also be an option. I need to read a little more about this but the Aquamist system 2s may be the solution for intercooling and fuel enrichment.

I say forget the hybrid kit, tooooo much cool stuff going on with real 928 motors now.

Andy K

mspiegle

That's right, Andy and I will have a working example on my 86.5 by Jan. I'll also have the ability to tune it up quite a bit with my SMT6, so we'll see how much more I can squeeze out of it.

GoRideSno

Mike,
Check out the links above to the Mf2 and and the system 2s. I am all for electrons doing stuff things made of matter could do. After all, rennlist lives through computers.

Andy K

Warren928

Go Ride,

Is it possible to do a roots blower and then intercooler after through water cooled coils, like that one on ebay and still keep a low pressure loss and hood clearance? What kind of cost does this add? How much can you turn up the boost with a decent intercooler addition?

How about you centrifugal guys out there? Murph, FAST, etc. Anybody finished with their testing?

mspiegle

http://www.bgsoflex.com/megasquirt.html
check that one out andy. Its a fuel computer that you build yourself. Very customizable and very cheap.

My feeling on the whole situation, is that putting in an RRFRP will give you more fuel to work with, the SMT6 will give you control to fine-tune the fuel.

I don't think you really need a whole management system for the aquamist. I personally would just want the damn thing to turn on @ high load and high RPM. Does fine-tuning it through a fuel-injection computer really yield alot?

The SMT has trigger switches that will turn a circuit on under a certain condition. You can say, under X throttle and Y RPM, trigger a circuit. That can be the Aquamist.

What do ya think?

GoRideSno

Mike,
The Mf2 and system 2s stuff is concerning the 16v cars that Lou asked about. I only mentioned it because low impedance injectors may be hard to find. Can you put the SMT on the 16v cars? They have L-jet.
The Mf2, which is part of the system 2s, not only runs the aquamist but runs 4 additional injectors. It is a fuel computer, but for 4 additional injectors, having nothing to do w/ the stock fuel system. So the Mf2 gives you extra fuel and tuning ability for that fuel. It also controls the misting system but not at the same time.
So a fuel system for a 16v car MAY use stock injectors, stock fuel regulators, and have extra fuel added via the Mf2 and up to 4 additional easy to find/relatively inexpensive injectors (4 FMS #30 injectors~=$120).


Warren,
The Mf2 and system 2s stuff above was in response to Lou's questions concerning the 16v cars. It has not much to do with the 32 valve cars.

My 32v systems are air to water intercooled with real intercooler cores. I am able to use a larger IC core than some of the centrifugal kit makers sell with their kits. The only thing I would do w/ the thing on e-bay is use it as a bad example. My systems fit under the hood. I have been running 8psi lately, with only a very small intercooler core I was testing. So quite a bit more should be possible. I don't think anyone sells and ships a kit making over 8psi. I haven't measured pressure loss but a similar setup is good enough for Ford's new GT supercar. My roots low boost non-intercooled 85-86 system will cost less than $3000 (maybe as little as $2500 if you find a used blower). My 7-8psi (probably capable of much more) system with a Whipple 2300AX twin-screw will cost around $5500. I can see a moderate boost ICed roots some where in between and closer to the $3K mark than the $5k mark.
Something that will need to be considered is availability. There will only be about 5 to sell once I get them done. They will only be sold to people who have come to conclude that positive displacement is the correct route for them in their own right.



Andy K

T_MaX

Warren928

Andy ,

I really think the moderately boosted ICed roots system is something that would be very nice for allot of 928 owners like me who have to split their budget between too many projects -ie: home, family, etc. You've got something here.

So where does the roots system like this one have its limitations in boost? Is it excessive heat from higher boost or just a boost /reliability limit?

Can it be upgraded or changed out to go beyond moderate boost levels to a better SC model without swapping your custom intake manifold or other key items?

ViribusUnits

Onebad928 I have been doing aluought of research into the S/Cing an L-jet 928.

"Last i talked to F-A-S-T they were trying to make a front mount air to air. Also i understand on 16v with the AFM theres been restrictions and problems so why not put the AFM before SC instead of after."

Very good idea. Boost changs tdensity of the air, and severly hoses up the fuel curve. Very bad. The biggest problem is that according to my testing, your going to max the stock AFM out at around 240 hp. give or take 20 hp. This is now where near enough for part boost issues IMHO. To make the SC system work, your going to have to retune the AFM to a larger st of injectors. The supercharger should be able to compensate for any restriction imposed by the AFM with ease. It can't be more than half a psi of pressure drop at most, and a S/C can make a half a psi like nothing.

"Also the fuel is controlled by the computer as for rich/lean on the earlier cars so the local speed shop recommended to go with bigger injectors instead of stock since stock only provides to a maximum HP."

The S 928 injectors are IIRC, 19 pounds. The S4 are also 19 pounds. What give you say? The S4 runs at like twice the fuel rail pressure. IF you would up the fuel rail pressure to that of an S4, you should beable to hit 345 hp w/o problem. I belive the S4 and the GTS used the same fuel rail pressure. Failing that you can switch to the same injectors on the 914. They are 24 pound, IIRC. Again, you'll need to retune the AFM to suit. There are no "chips" for the ECU, because it is bascily "unchipable"

"Also either advance or retard is also controlled by computer (definitely 83-84 US) he suggested a msd timing box control. atleast thats if you run with a vortech set up."

Absoutly and unequivicably NOT true. The ignition is controled by the pointless distributer. To change the igniton timeing, you have to change the set up, or add an intercepter box. The best idea I've heard so far is to modify the vacuum advance that our 83 and 84 cars come with. Bascily, you use a drimmal to cut out the peg that prevents it from retarding the timeing, and set a screw to adjsut just how much retard you want when the boost comes on. Just as good as a normal intercepeter box, but simpler, and cheaper.

Good luck chaseing the boost demon!

(Oh, btw, last time I checked, Autozone has off brand L-jet injectors for the 928 for $54 a peice, that ain't half bad. Eighter Autozone, or Pelican Parts, I can't rember now.)

GoRideSno

Warren,
I have read of the Eaton M112 on the 03 mustang Cobra making 18psi on it's 4.6 engine. Because the 32v 5.0L 928 engine is larger and has a higher CR, 18psi can not be accomplished. I don't know the upper limit for the 32 V engine but I will guess somewhere around 10-12 psi. I guess it will make around 500 to 550 crank HP on the 32v 928, intercooled. Non intercooled I am thinking around 6psi is the limit. I drove the car a few hundred miles at 4psi w/ the roots. There were never an problems w/ detonation even in the dead of summer. I sheared an injector wire and was getting no fuel to 1 cylinder (thought it was a bad injector). With no fuel at 4psi there was no damage I even heard it knocking pretty loud.

The M112 is designed to last for over 100k miles so if you get a good one there will be no reliability issues.

I plan to do a trade out program where if someone has the roots system and wants to upgrade to the Whipple twin-screw system I will trade out all the parts necessary. I will give xx% of the original purchase price off when the parts are returned for trade. There will be very little difference between mt roots parts and twin-screw parts if any. The big difference in price is the price of the SC. A used roots SC can be had for as little as $200. I have 2 sitting here I paid $200 for one and about $350 for the other. The Whipple 2300 AX is 2000 from superchargers4less.com




Viribus,
You would be a big hero if you revealed a source of larger injectors for the L-jet cars as larger injectors for the L-jet are hard to find. $54 for an injector is expensive. That is twice the price Summit Racing sells the Ford MotorSport #30 injectors for. You could have 4 extra injectors and a Mf2 controller for a little more than the $432 the stock sized "off brand" injectors would cost.
Since SCed cars have a different BSFC than do NA cars there is not a there is not a direct correlation in fuel needed.


Andy K

Dozman

Viribus,
Call Rich at Cruzin Performance and talk to him about what your looking for, maybe he can locate the injectors for you. He services injectors and from time to time he has been known to locate injectors as well.