Mr. Regular doesn't like our cars
10-30-2016, 11:51 AM
#61
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I'm still hanging with the "better video" KVDR posted.
Don't mind me.
I still carry a Motorola flip phone also. And do my computer work on my p.c. when I can relax in my overstuffed leather chair. No electronic leash for me, or half bred mongrel to drive.
Simple life; less strife
Don't mind me.
I still carry a Motorola flip phone also. And do my computer work on my p.c. when I can relax in my overstuffed leather chair. No electronic leash for me, or half bred mongrel to drive.
Simple life; less strife
face it; you drive a 944 n/a because you're a detestable old crock.
Last edited by odurandina; 10-30-2016 at 01:35 PM.
10-30-2016, 01:20 PM
#62
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One more thing about the perspective of the 944/968 as a kit car platform. Say you buy a 944 n/a or 968.... And before long you discover the cars inherent characteristics not only accommodate bigger tires, bigger brakes, and more power – the cars are begging for it. in the case of your 944, your Turbo conversion is simply done by swapping to a Turbo car. in the case of turbocharging, tuning and maintaning a 968 Turbo, or keeping a 944T operating at >300whp for the next 100~150k miles, either case requires a serious commitment.
whether your starting point is a 944 n/a or 968, getting to up to hurricane force (>374whp), whether that happens as a result of tuning the Porsche platform or changing to v8 power, and then maintaining at the level for the next 100~150k miles, the time and dollars extracted from the owner occur at orders of magnitude higher than the n/a cars.
i've driven an '87S, then a 968, and a finally the 968 V8 for the majority of the last quarter century. i'm at >250,000 miles between the three cars. ....i'm not a mechanic, but i've followed dozens and dozens and dozens of guys running their turbos at high performance for their daily driven cars. Their effort/s to run high power for long stretches of miles + many years of service exacts the maximum to keep the cars at top performance are on par or exceed the efforts of guys running v8s.
We've had only a very small sample of v8 guys sharing their experiences on the 944 forums. The number is less than 10. We've had a rash of people who've either left the platform and moved on, or left the forum in the past couple of years.
It would seem like an indictment of the v8. it shouldn't be. i see this as much more a fluke, than anything else. start with a good engine, don't beet the effing crap out of it on the track, don't let it run hot, and you'll be right there. there are literally hundreds of v8 guys around the country, doing just fine. but they're outlier cars on an outlier platform. they're not necessarily going to be inclined to talk much up here.... but, if you go up to the 944 Hybrids forum, you see many of the guys posting over many years. like anything, there's a learning curve for the v8 tuning community. i'm more certain than ever, that once built, the v8 platform is solid.
building a v8 isn't for everyone. neither is a blown (as in THREW A ROD) 944 engine. time, experience and watching others has taught me that the 2nd happens with far too great frequency. when it happens, the event is so catastrophic, it's significant trauma followed by a long pause, with guys usually deciding their done.... as i mentioned above, whether it's building the right Porsche turbo engine, or doing a v8 you have to be prepared to go all the way. i've seen 944 guys 'go all the way' with 2.5 turbo engines and get killed 2 and 3 times over.
doing it right the first time isn't risky. it's expensive. over the long haul, it comes with the least amount of grief in doses of 3 or 5.7~6.2 liters.
examples of 'done right' is a 944T tuned below about 320whp, a 968 turbo tuned below about 380whp, or a v8 swap. All will require a lot of money, extreme attention to detail and continued diligence – at the 'supercar' level. there's no margin for error, or you'll be pulling the engine, cutting or junking the car.... the failure rate/s of the 2 most expensive options are well below the failures of the 2.5L 944T engine.
the sum total of any form of significant performance from this platform whether running either Porsche 2.5, 3.0 or American v8
= running them (as near as makes no difference) as kit cars.
cost of purchase/tune/build/maintain a 375whp car + driven for 125k miles:
944 v8 < (944T or 968 v8 about the same) < 968 Turbo
attrition rate @ 375whp;
944T > v8 or 968 Turbo
update (the fun part of the post);
968 GT dialed in..... scary/brutally/violently/apocalyptically fast.... now at as near as makes no difference *five (or six?) hundred whp + nascar torque... life was easy with the low output fuel pump.... now with the max-output pump, the 200mph GT car lights up the tires easily at 70mph.... even with these huge sticky tires, screwing around isn't recommended.
*probably closer to 425~435whp w/ about 485~490 ft-lb torque.
.
whether your starting point is a 944 n/a or 968, getting to up to hurricane force (>374whp), whether that happens as a result of tuning the Porsche platform or changing to v8 power, and then maintaining at the level for the next 100~150k miles, the time and dollars extracted from the owner occur at orders of magnitude higher than the n/a cars.
i've driven an '87S, then a 968, and a finally the 968 V8 for the majority of the last quarter century. i'm at >250,000 miles between the three cars. ....i'm not a mechanic, but i've followed dozens and dozens and dozens of guys running their turbos at high performance for their daily driven cars. Their effort/s to run high power for long stretches of miles + many years of service exacts the maximum to keep the cars at top performance are on par or exceed the efforts of guys running v8s.
We've had only a very small sample of v8 guys sharing their experiences on the 944 forums. The number is less than 10. We've had a rash of people who've either left the platform and moved on, or left the forum in the past couple of years.
It would seem like an indictment of the v8. it shouldn't be. i see this as much more a fluke, than anything else. start with a good engine, don't beet the effing crap out of it on the track, don't let it run hot, and you'll be right there. there are literally hundreds of v8 guys around the country, doing just fine. but they're outlier cars on an outlier platform. they're not necessarily going to be inclined to talk much up here.... but, if you go up to the 944 Hybrids forum, you see many of the guys posting over many years. like anything, there's a learning curve for the v8 tuning community. i'm more certain than ever, that once built, the v8 platform is solid.
building a v8 isn't for everyone. neither is a blown (as in THREW A ROD) 944 engine. time, experience and watching others has taught me that the 2nd happens with far too great frequency. when it happens, the event is so catastrophic, it's significant trauma followed by a long pause, with guys usually deciding their done.... as i mentioned above, whether it's building the right Porsche turbo engine, or doing a v8 you have to be prepared to go all the way. i've seen 944 guys 'go all the way' with 2.5 turbo engines and get killed 2 and 3 times over.
doing it right the first time isn't risky. it's expensive. over the long haul, it comes with the least amount of grief in doses of 3 or 5.7~6.2 liters.
examples of 'done right' is a 944T tuned below about 320whp, a 968 turbo tuned below about 380whp, or a v8 swap. All will require a lot of money, extreme attention to detail and continued diligence – at the 'supercar' level. there's no margin for error, or you'll be pulling the engine, cutting or junking the car.... the failure rate/s of the 2 most expensive options are well below the failures of the 2.5L 944T engine.
the sum total of any form of significant performance from this platform whether running either Porsche 2.5, 3.0 or American v8
= running them (as near as makes no difference) as kit cars.
cost of purchase/tune/build/maintain a 375whp car + driven for 125k miles:
944 v8 < (944T or 968 v8 about the same) < 968 Turbo
attrition rate @ 375whp;
944T > v8 or 968 Turbo
update (the fun part of the post);
968 GT dialed in..... scary/brutally/violently/apocalyptically fast.... now at as near as makes no difference *five (or six?) hundred whp + nascar torque... life was easy with the low output fuel pump.... now with the max-output pump, the 200mph GT car lights up the tires easily at 70mph.... even with these huge sticky tires, screwing around isn't recommended.
*probably closer to 425~435whp w/ about 485~490 ft-lb torque.
.
Last edited by odurandina; 10-30-2016 at 01:59 PM.
10-30-2016, 02:00 PM
#64
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it's just numbers. that kind of power with that kind of torque can't easily be weighed.
perhaps it's time to post a decent 0-175mph-0 video?
.
perhaps it's time to post a decent 0-175mph-0 video?
.
10-30-2016, 02:22 PM
#65
Three Wheelin'
^^that of course, is fine. a 944 n/a is a pretty old beater by today's standards (i know because i drove an '87S for 99k miles). i thought it was great back in the day, because i drove it up to 100mph sometimes. for those times, it was a really good 4 cylinder Euro car. nowadays, you can probably equal or surpass an 'S' performance with an average Honda. you can get considerably more acceleration and top speed from a decent running Audi A4 or dozens of turbocharged econoboxes in varying degrees of age.
face it; you drive a 944 n/a because you're a detestable old crock.
face it; you drive a 944 n/a because you're a detestable old crock.
why of course ! And then some ~My 2015 Corolla with h.d. TRD anti sway bars will nearly out handle, and certainly WILL out accelerate the 944 normals I own, but you know what ? It has NO WHERE near the charm and charisma of that machine.
If I wish to do top end acceleration runs my '89 - 951 with Porsche Clubsport chip will do nearly what your v/8 claim. It has been closed course speed trapped with a H.P. Radar gun at 172 mph. But, it really isn't all about the out gunning everything out there. It IS about more than that. It's about the soul and beauty of that soul.
And if need be, if something goes awry I have various source material at hand on the internet, in Porsche workshop manuals, in PCA "Upfixin der Porsche" writings, books by Bruce Anderson, Jim Pasha, and other Porsche gurus. Internet forums to aid such as this one, 944 Online, Pelican, etc.
What do you have for source material on troubleshooting an 'enigma' of an automobile ? What do you go to when you have to
? ? ? What do you have for camaraderie when you show up at your local Porsche Club car show, or the one down the street on weekends where all the Ferraris, Lambos, Porsches, and Corvettes hang ? Do you try and squeeze your car in between the last Porsche and the first Corvette and act the 'tweener' part ?
* by the way, I'm not quite the 'old' guy you may think I am..... granted I bought my first Porsche quite young, but I was able to with a very successful building venture I began during my College years. After all one is only as young as one feels at heart. The Porsches do a great job at making that feeling real
10-30-2016, 02:51 PM
#66
Three Wheelin'
A new good econobox has like 150hp today but weighs like 1.5 metric tons.
So thats 10kg/1hp in a peak hp machine that has a milion emission control things so power delivery is squinted until that redline max hp number.
The 944 on the other hand makes 150hp(in its ****ty early US trim) and weighs 1.25 metric tons.
So thats 8.3kg/1hp (7.6kg/1hp for european ones) from a larger engine with no emission control other than a catalisator.
I have driven a few econoboxes...a 150hp 1.4 turbocharged VW, some 150hp turbo diesel audis, and a 190hp 3 series bmw....all new cars...the bmw is actually not so much of an econobox.
I dont own a 944 nor i plan to, but i dont remember it being slow.
And my 931, not my GTS wannabe, my almost factory spec 931 with 170hp(back in 1980) will shame the 190hp bmw.
I actually did a small test...and the 190hp bmw wont reach the same speed the 931 does on the same road in the same conditions.
The diffefence is actually not small, its about 30kph less. The 931 does 230 in the same place where the bmw struggles to crawl to 200.
I immagine the 944 should be not too far behind the 931.
so...OD, you're part of the people who got sold into the new is good....so you're sort of brainwashed.
Not completely tho, the new engines could be phenomenal..if they were left to breathe....but they are not...so they are slow.
10-30-2016, 06:46 PM
#67
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2017 base model Honda Civic: 174HP and maybe 100lb heavier than the lightest stock 944. It'd be a hell of a race. A Kia Rio is probably a bit slower than a decent 944NA but it'd probably be a race also.
Base model Fiesta would probably walk a 944NA. Man this sounds like fun, should we rent some cars?
Base model Fiesta would probably walk a 944NA. Man this sounds like fun, should we rent some cars?
10-31-2016, 02:22 AM
#68
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My 2015 Corolla with h.d. TRD anti sway bars will nearly out handle, and certainly WILL out accelerate the 944 normals I own, but you know what ? It has NO WHERE near the charm and charisma of that machine.
If I wish to do top end acceleration runs my '89 - 951 with Porsche Clubsport chip will do nearly what your v/8 claim. It has been closed course speed trapped with a H.P. Radar gun at 172 mph. But, it really isn't all about the out gunning everything out there. It IS about more than that. It's about the soul and beauty of that soul.
And if need be, if something goes awry I have various source material at hand on the internet, in Porsche workshop manuals, in PCA "Upfixin der Porsche" writings, books by Bruce Anderson, Jim Pasha, and other Porsche gurus. Internet forums to aid such as this one, 944 Online, Pelican, etc.
What do you have for source material on troubleshooting an 'enigma' of an automobile ? What do you go to when you have to ? ? ?
What do you have for camaraderie when you show up at your local Porsche Club car show, or the one down the street on weekends where all the Ferraris, Lambos, Porsches, and Corvettes hang ? Do you try and squeeze your car in between the last Porsche and the first Corvette and act the 'tweener' part ?
If I wish to do top end acceleration runs my '89 - 951 with Porsche Clubsport chip will do nearly what your v/8 claim. It has been closed course speed trapped with a H.P. Radar gun at 172 mph. But, it really isn't all about the out gunning everything out there. It IS about more than that. It's about the soul and beauty of that soul.
And if need be, if something goes awry I have various source material at hand on the internet, in Porsche workshop manuals, in PCA "Upfixin der Porsche" writings, books by Bruce Anderson, Jim Pasha, and other Porsche gurus. Internet forums to aid such as this one, 944 Online, Pelican, etc.
What do you have for source material on troubleshooting an 'enigma' of an automobile ? What do you go to when you have to
? ? ? What do you have for camaraderie when you show up at your local Porsche Club car show, or the one down the street on weekends where all the Ferraris, Lambos, Porsches, and Corvettes hang ? Do you try and squeeze your car in between the last Porsche and the first Corvette and act the 'tweener' part ?
If I wanted to drive a classic sports car with a boat anchor V8, I'd buy an old Camaro, Trans Am, Corvette, etc.
Where's the challenge in that? It doesn't take a rocket scientist to make decent power out of a V8. The pimply-faced kid working the counter at Advance or Autozone can tell you how to do that. It's a relatively unsophisticated "brute force" approach to making cheap and easy power.
OTOH, it does take a certain amount of skill and being clever (and yes, money) to extract V8-beating power out of something half a V8's size (or less). Along with a certain amount of satisfaction for having done so, while staying true to the platform. A V8 swap into a platform that wasn't meant for it requires skill and ingenuity as well, but a different kind.
Me, I couldn't feel the same sense of accomplishment for outrunning another V8, in something powered by a similar V8, that wasn't meant to be. No braggin' rights there. Instead, I'd probably feel like a cheater or poser.
10-31-2016, 03:03 AM
#69
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boat anchor?
not sure if serious.
have you ever read the 7 stages of 944T ownership? talk about a ball and chains.
Rejoice, O young man, in thy youth.... speaketh softly and listen loudly....
not sure if serious.
have you ever read the 7 stages of 944T ownership? talk about a ball and chains.
Rejoice, O young man, in thy youth.... speaketh softly and listen loudly....
10-31-2016, 04:23 AM
#70
Three Wheelin'
2017 base model Honda Civic: 174HP and maybe 100lb heavier than the lightest stock 944. It'd be a hell of a race. A Kia Rio is probably a bit slower than a decent 944NA but it'd probably be a race also.
Base model Fiesta would probably walk a 944NA. Man this sounds like fun, should we rent some cars?
Base model Fiesta would probably walk a 944NA. Man this sounds like fun, should we rent some cars?
I looked up that honda, of 174hp and its 100kg heavier than the 944..thats 220lb more...you may have gotten your numbers wrong...but dont get me wrong, that honda is a quick one...its turbocharged.
you guys must be getting nitro running econoboxes over there...but base model fiesta here has an anemic 1L turbo engine making a peak 140hp.Some of you guys are so hyped about these new cars performances and to be honest at least on paper they look really good. My question is why not scrap the 944 or whatever you own and get a new honda..or a new base model fiesta?
But lets not say that...lets say...why not send the 944 to the crusher and get a toyota 86 or a subaru brz...those 200hp things should be even faster than the econo boxes..no?
10-31-2016, 08:25 AM
#71
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Id take 2017 civic over v8 44/68 every time.
10-31-2016, 08:39 AM
#72
+1 Me too.........
He's right on the Money (odurandina) I've spent a load on my 2.7 N/A and succeeded in achieving a higher PTW figure than any STOCK 924 / 944 / 968
(apart from the 968TurboS)
However many more newer designed machines even not regarded as Sportscars
are as quick and faster on public roads than the 40 year old Transaxle.
R
He's right on the Money (odurandina) I've spent a load on my 2.7 N/A and succeeded in achieving a higher PTW figure than any STOCK 924 / 944 / 968
(apart from the 968TurboS)
However many more newer designed machines even not regarded as Sportscars
are as quick and faster on public roads than the 40 year old Transaxle.
R
10-31-2016, 09:50 AM
#73
[QUOTE=mrgreenjeans;13711589] why of course ! And then some ~
My 2015 Corolla with h.d. TRD anti sway bars will nearly out handle, and certainly WILL out accelerate the 944 normals I own, but you know what ? It has NO WHERE near the charm and charisma of that machine.
Your 944s need a tune up and suspension rebuild perhaps
why of course ! And then some ~My 2015 Corolla with h.d. TRD anti sway bars will nearly out handle, and certainly WILL out accelerate the 944 normals I own, but you know what ? It has NO WHERE near the charm and charisma of that machine.
Your 944s need a tune up and suspension rebuild perhaps
10-31-2016, 10:24 AM
#74
Rennlist Member
My line of work has me in lots of rental cars...I've driven probably a dozen of 2016's finest econoboxes since June. Obviously, very lackluster and charmless compared to a 944. In terms of performance, a lot of them had better off the line performance, but after the first few seconds they just didn't build power as well as my NA. The only car that had a more fun powerband was an Elantra GT and that was a POS in a few other ways. All of the rentals had poorly set up suspension out of the factory and despite having modern safety features out the wazoo, I know which car I feel most secure in and wouldn't hesitate to whip around a jughandle at questionable speeds.
10-31-2016, 11:00 AM
#75
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Whoops, yes that is the upgraded Civic engine, I did not drill deep enough to find the 2.0L NA option. It'd probably still be a good race.
Obviously people who are passionate about the 944 should buy them and enjoy them but it's totally fair to compare them to other options that might fit the budget and offer similar performance.
I am not sure what the real weight of a street 944 is, close to 3000 lbs for the later ones, maybe 2650, 1200kg for an early RoW:
http://www.weissach.net/924-944-968_...mmary.html#944
The Civic is claimed to be 2750-2800lbs, so pretty close. The 6 speed is probably lighter, the CVT might be a little quicker. Low rolling resistance tires might be holding it back.
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...vt-test-review
A better comparison is probably a used econobox with a similar cost of ownership to a 944, possibly a lot less passion in the ownership experience but a more worthy comparison. Who knows, there could be passion in the Legacy GT or Focus ZX-3 or something like that and the 944 might even have a performance edge if it's not too whipped.
Obviously people who are passionate about the 944 should buy them and enjoy them but it's totally fair to compare them to other options that might fit the budget and offer similar performance.
I am not sure what the real weight of a street 944 is, close to 3000 lbs for the later ones, maybe 2650, 1200kg for an early RoW:
http://www.weissach.net/924-944-968_...mmary.html#944
The Civic is claimed to be 2750-2800lbs, so pretty close. The 6 speed is probably lighter, the CVT might be a little quicker. Low rolling resistance tires might be holding it back.
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...vt-test-review
A better comparison is probably a used econobox with a similar cost of ownership to a 944, possibly a lot less passion in the ownership experience but a more worthy comparison. Who knows, there could be passion in the Legacy GT or Focus ZX-3 or something like that and the 944 might even have a performance edge if it's not too whipped.