How do I explain max horsepower and torque to a Honda owner?
10-14-2003, 06:23 PM
#31
Racer
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Originally posted by Waterguy
One little detail that people are leaving out of the equation is gearing.
Extreme examples are modern 600 CC sports bikes. No torque at all below 8,000 rpm, measured in in-lbs above 8,000 rpm. However, with 110 HP at 13,000 rpm they are FAST!
Of course, all of this refers to driving in the power band, as discussed above. A Honda S2000 would probably be a pain around town, but a 944S2 would be better than either an S2000 or a 951.
One little detail that people are leaving out of the equation is gearing.
Extreme examples are modern 600 CC sports bikes. No torque at all below 8,000 rpm, measured in in-lbs above 8,000 rpm. However, with 110 HP at 13,000 rpm they are FAST!
Of course, all of this refers to driving in the power band, as discussed above. A Honda S2000 would probably be a pain around town, but a 944S2 would be better than either an S2000 or a 951.
My old 86 prelude is only rated at 110hp, and yet, it redlines up to 7,000rpm and can get up to 200km/hr with almost 300,000km on the engine.
The link to the torque article posted was very good. You really feel Torque from a standstill. You can have lots of HP on a Civic, but it won't pull a boat out of the water beacuse there is little torque down at 1,000 rpm.
I'm sure the S2000 is loads of fun around town. I'd rather drive my prelude than my 951 in town simply due to the weight of the thing.
But once I'm on a nice smooth road out of town doing over 100k or on a racetrack .... give me the 951!
10-14-2003, 06:50 PM
#32
Burning Brakes
I'm so glad this question came up. My buddy just installed a japanese GSR motor in his 99 civic. The motor is rated at 200hp and an anemic amount of torque. Anyway, he was talking snap for weeks about how he was gonna blow by doors off. So we finally get them out on the road and I'd like to say that I kicked his *** all around. The car is quick don't get me wrong but it makes no torque, has to be wound out to 7,000 rpm to tap the power and still handles like a pig. Just so everyone knows I have a 90 S2 Cabrio which to me makes more than the stated 208 HP. The power I get from 3,500 to 6,000 is really impressive. I drove another friends 95 Mustang GT which has some mods to it and I can honestly say that his V8 SOUNDS alot more impressive than it really is. He would definately beat me in the straights *Not by much though* but we take it in the twisty back roads of CT and its bye bye Stanger. Anyway, after our encounter my GSR friend is now looking to turbo charge to get the upper hand on me. LOL
10-14-2003, 07:27 PM
#33
Race Car
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water944t: do you know what a combustion chamber is versus displacement? obviously not. our combustion chambers are way smaller than coke cans, while our displacement is much larger. go read.
-Michael-
-Michael-
10-14-2003, 08:18 PM
#36
Race Car
I think Boyee needs to explain what he's doing on the honda forums.....
You kiddin', there are type r stickers on just about everything over here
Originally posted by Sami951
but the Type-R (do you call it that over there?)
but the Type-R (do you call it that over there?)
10-14-2003, 08:29 PM
#37
Rennlist Member
As I have said 1000's of time. FORGET about torque. no one that is asking this question , knows what the torque really means. However, if you focus on HP, and more accurately, area under the HP curve, and more specifically, under the curve that is used due to gearing, you will have the answer. Hp is everything. torque is nothing without RPM,and RPM is nothing without Torque. US HP as the measure, and you dont have to figure anything out!!!
example: two cars with 500hp/250torque vs 500hp /500torque . which will be faster?
Assuming that the shape of the hp curves for both are close to the same .
answer: they will acclel the same as long as the gear boxes are the same.
dont make it more complicated than it has to be.
Then, the next steps are HP to weight, and gear ratios
Have fun.
Mk
MK
example: two cars with 500hp/250torque vs 500hp /500torque . which will be faster?
Assuming that the shape of the hp curves for both are close to the same .
answer: they will acclel the same as long as the gear boxes are the same.
dont make it more complicated than it has to be.
Then, the next steps are HP to weight, and gear ratios
Have fun.
Mk
MK
10-14-2003, 08:33 PM
#38
Rennlist Member
[Wrong wrong wrong. go back to my previous post and re-read
HP gives you accleration. torque does NOTHING without speed.
if you were to operate and accelerate at the fastest possible rate, your engine would have to have an infinitely variable gear box, and operate at max HP when you wanted max accel.
mk
]Originally posted by SidViscous
Torque is a twisting forse, horsepower, a pulling force. Torque gives you acceleration, HP gives you top speed.
Best way to explain it to them. Torque in the lower range gives better acceleration. Electric motors (as in electric cars) have maximum TQ at 0 rom. And because of that they have sick acceleration, even though a low top speed.
We have a high top speed because of gearing.
Does that help? No I didn't think so. [/QUOTE]
HP gives you accleration. torque does NOTHING without speed.
if you were to operate and accelerate at the fastest possible rate, your engine would have to have an infinitely variable gear box, and operate at max HP when you wanted max accel.
mk
]Originally posted by SidViscous
Torque is a twisting forse, horsepower, a pulling force. Torque gives you acceleration, HP gives you top speed.
Best way to explain it to them. Torque in the lower range gives better acceleration. Electric motors (as in electric cars) have maximum TQ at 0 rom. And because of that they have sick acceleration, even though a low top speed.
We have a high top speed because of gearing.
Does that help? No I didn't think so. [/QUOTE]
10-14-2003, 08:44 PM
#39
Race Car
Ag951 - wow great explanation but most of us don't remember (or haven't even reached) college physics 101 unless it's practiced on a routine basis.
this has been a great discussion - obviously several different viewpoints.
this has been a great discussion - obviously several different viewpoints.
10-14-2003, 08:55 PM
#40
Hp is everything. torque is nothing without RPM,and RPM is nothing without Torque.
Also, if you have two cars rated at 500hp/500tq and 500hp/250tq, there is NO WAY for the curves to be the same. That peak 500hp for the second car is going to come at much higher RPM's (ie S2000), while the first car will have much more usable power down low (ie S2 vs. Turbo)
From Carroll Smith's "Tune to Win", Chapter 12:
"So far as the building of the racing engine goes, there are two basic choices -- at top end engine which will produce a while bunch of horsepower at high RPM at the expense of the width of the torque band and mid-range power, or a torquey engine which sacrifices some of the top end to gain mid-range power and a broad usable rpm range. Admittedly the horsepower and torque curve characteristics required will cary somewhat with the nature of the race track, but the basic rule remains, "Horsepower sells motorocars and torque wins motor races."
I prefer to believe Smith.
10-14-2003, 08:58 PM
#41
Three Wheelin'
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Originally posted by Red 944
just thought that this would bring a lot of hate to a honda board very very fast.
just thought that this would bring a lot of hate to a honda board very very fast.
