ACSGP

OK guys, back on topic please. I'm discussing an 88 Turbo S.

So, there seems to be a view for the car to stay stock if it's in good stock condition already.

No one disliking the "stiff-legged" feel of the torsion bar rear end? Having never driven a 924/944/968 or an early 911, I have no opinions on this yet. I've just read about it, and would like some views for a daily driver (not a track car).

mrgreenjeans

I have never viewed my 944s , 951, or my 911 Carrera as being 'stiff-legged'. And we can have some pretty rotten roads around the upper Midwest where these are primarily driven.

They are all sport suspension cars with either M404 or M456 options and Koni shocks with Sport Shock configuration. On the track, my 944 with the extra hd springs and lowered profile, runs with no fatiguing pressure applied to the human body. This for hours on end.

The Carrera is the most harsh of the group and yet it isn't so upsetting as to be a deal breaker. I certainly wouldn't be messing with some of the finer sport settings of these models to try to assimilate the 964 set up. ( Frankly I do not care that much for the refinements that model brought to the table, much more preferring the raw, edgier side of vintage Porsche settings.) I like the 'earlier' Porsche experience as I feel it is more representing of what I want in a sports car.

But, that is me. Your mileage and experience may well be different since I have never been to your country and driven your roads in a 964.

951Dreams

Sorry we got

We do that sometimes.

I've never heard or experienced what you're talking about with the torsion bar rear end. My advice would likely be to just see what you think after a while before planning to do anything different. The suspensions are stiff on these, but in a good sports car way. You can feel the road, and that's what you want in a sports car. Helps to make sure you stay on it.

ACSGP

No probs. The pedant alert is high in rennlist, whether on the 964 or 944 boards

TBH, I haven't had the pleasure of driving a 951. But given that the height of air-cooled suspension goodness, according to some, is the 993RS, I did actually consider installing the multi-link into the 964, but sold it before I did so.

But it would be interesting to hear about the experiences of those who did swap out the torsion bar, or for those who own both a torsion bar car, as well as a coilover car.

With the t-bar connecting the rear wheels, are the wheels less independent of motion?

ACSGP

On another note, this seems a pretty comprehensive PPI list. Overkill?

http://www.944online.com/cgi-bin/yab...num=1298752427

V2Rocket

Each wheel has its own torsion bar sharing a common central mount - they are sprung completely independently of eachother.

That said, because of the design of the torsion bar suspension and the lack of much rubber...the t-bar suspension has a tendency to be pretty harsh and very noisy on rough roads.

It's fine on smooth, recently-paved roads but on anything with cracks/potholes/stepped pavement it's not fun...

I thought my stock suspension was getting tired because of how harsh the ride was sometimes...I replaced all the bushings with new rubber, while installing larger torsion bars...and the ride/harshness was the same, it's just the roads around here that are ****...

No question that a Macpherson strut or multi-link rear car rides better.

snb13

Actually, I wish my suspension was stiffer. Up front I have the 250# Weltmeister lowering springs, newish strut inserts, 28.8mm sway bar and strut tower brace. In back I have newish shocks and that's it. I have a 19mm sway bar to put in.

Down the road I think I'll get adjustable Koni's and bigger torsion bars.

And I live on a gravel road.

V2Rocket

You'd benefit from larger torsion bars to match your front springs, it is a nice upgrade.

Gravel has some "give" to it typically...not cracked-to-**** asphalt.

ACSGP

Going to see the car today.

So a few more questions, sorry.

How can I confirm that it has the M030 spec? And in the UK, there was the M758 option.
http://www.944silverrose.co.uk/techn...urbo-1988.html

Something only the Porsche distributor who sold the car will know?

mrgreenjeans

Are they advertising it as an M030 car ?

IF it is an early build 88, it will probably NOT be, but it would be listed on the white build code tag near the left rear taillight under the rear carpet.

If it is an '88.2 or the 247 hp variant, there is a very good chance it will be an M030 spec. Again, it will be listed on that white tag coded as 030.

The Silver Rose cars are all coded as 758, same as the normal variant '88 Jubilee/Celebration edition is coded 757.
AND, they will be a metallic rose or almost pinkish-silver in hue unless repainted. And, if the car is original it will also have the burgundy plush carpeting and have the cloth seats and door panels covered in a plaid multi hued burgundy pattern.
It would also carry a premium if marketed by a knowing seller.
I consider them ( and so do many others ) uniquely rare and quite desirable, especially in good form.

porscharu

Maybe I'm a cynic, but ride in the car before you start redesigning the entire rear suspension. As a daily driver it's a sports car not a LS460. Go in with an open mind and let us know your initial impressions. One man's harsh and stiff is another man's soft and cushy.

mrgreenjeans

I read thru that dealer listing and find it a bit confusing.

The cars he has listed there are NOT #758 cars because they are not silberossa cars with the Turbo S, Silver Rose Metallic paint, nor do they have the Burgundy Plaid interior which ONLY the #758 cars had.( Maybe the one is, but it is hard to ascertain IF the plaid interior is that which came in the Silver Roses or is another optioned cloth. Every silberossa I have seen has the Forged seven spoke FUCHS wheels as well and not the D90s, but this may have been changed.) After the initial run of all the silberossa's were made, the late 944 Turbo S of 1988 was made available in a number of regular production colors. But, not the original silberossa metallic. The tell IS the code #758 on the tag along with Sport Suspension, Koni sport shocks, and most likely LSD, along with the unique paint , carpet, and interior.

And this continued into 1989 when the turbo S name reverted back to just being a 944 turbo or model 951. With M030 options but no Silberossa color to choose. Porsche made a similar color in '87 and later known as Flamingo and it could also be special ordered thru the 'Special Wishes' Dept. or Sonderwunsch program. But the actual code #758 Silver Rose was a once in a life deal for 1988 only and ONLY on #758 option coded cars with the 247 hp drivetrain.

If you are buying a true Silberossa car, then don't mess with a thing and retain all originality the way it came from Porsche. They are significant cars in their own right. ( a very low mile original car sold about 5 years ago at Amelia Island Concours and Auction for around 80,000 American. ) They were made in small numbers and many have been lost to the ravages of time and accidents. Uncaring or dis-interested owners. Thus they have become very unique and few and far between, demanding an ardent following. Originality is key to value and change takes that value in a direction downward.

I love 'em.

ACSGP

Thanks all.

This is sold as a genuine Turbo S and not a Silver Rose. Owner is a Ferrari car fan, and don't think he's very clue-ed in on the options on the S. So I have verify it independently.

TBH, not a fan of the Silver Rose interior, too much purple.

ACSGP

OK, I just realised that I have driven torsion bar cars. A 356C and a 71 911T. They were very delicate handling, and handled bumps, curves and bad roads well. Could it be that the early cars were very light, and had bars with low spring rates and better compliance?

Will probably have to buy the car first and do a complete test.

I disliked the handling on the stock 964 suspension, and when I put in the KW V3s, and tuned for the road by a race shop, it was great. Less roll, more compliance and control.

ACSGP

Thanks for everyone's input.

Went to see the car, and it is actually a Silver Rose. It has been repainted red, and the interior is still maroon, but the current owner put in Gucci fabric.

Car's in relatively good condition, but there's a conundrum - re-paint as a Silver Rose, or re-do the interior.

All comes down to price, but the representations over the phone didn't really gel with the actual car. He didn't lie, but he's not aware of quite a few things, and that disturbs me a bit.

Unlikely that I'll pull the trigger.