Help! What are my rights?
09-03-2003, 09:29 AM
#76
Burning Brakes
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Why hasn't anyone suggested a friendly "Rennlist Gathering" at this guys place?
Seems to me if you descended upon him with 20 or 30 of us, you'd be all set. Hell, you could even spend less tha $1300 giving us all gas money to get there.
Seems to me if you descended upon him with 20 or 30 of us, you'd be all set. Hell, you could even spend less tha $1300 giving us all gas money to get there.
09-03-2003, 09:39 AM
#77
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haha, this gets back into the relm of the Rennlist Mafia.
Oh ya, it exists. The members meet by night in dark smoke filled garages.
Jimmie ~"We're going to break that guys timing belt and maybe his oil cooler seal to while we're at it!!!!"
Oh ya, it exists. The members meet by night in dark smoke filled garages.
Jimmie ~"We're going to break that guys timing belt and maybe his oil cooler seal to while we're at it!!!!"
09-03-2003, 10:06 AM
#79
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Re: Help! What are my rights?
Originally posted by Robwsup
He does this work all "under the table" to avoid business licensing, taxes, fire code, EPA paint shop rules, etc. So I have little or no paper work, no written estimate etc.
What the hell do I do?
He does this work all "under the table" to avoid business licensing, taxes, fire code, EPA paint shop rules, etc. So I have little or no paper work, no written estimate etc.
What the hell do I do?
Then call the cops. He has stolen your car, especially if there is no paperwork and you still have the title - the car is yours. Its his fault for no estimate no receipt its your word against his and YOU have the title. Guess who wins?
09-03-2003, 10:41 AM
#80
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Has anyone thought about the phase ".......I'll get my money....." spoken by this guy????
What does that mean? Has he done this many times before? Is he "connected"? That phase kinda worries me!
So much for the "serve and protect" aspect of the police in this situation, eh? If you want the police involved, prove to them that HE is breaking a law - THEN they will do something. Police usually don't "help" people, they only "punish" criminals.
944S Boyeee
What does that mean? Has he done this many times before? Is he "connected"? That phase kinda worries me!
So much for the "serve and protect" aspect of the police in this situation, eh? If you want the police involved, prove to them that HE is breaking a law - THEN they will do something. Police usually don't "help" people, they only "punish" criminals.
944S Boyeee
09-03-2003, 11:29 AM
#81
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It really will just take a phone call to the police to get your car back. I don't understand why you haven't done it, there is no way that the police shouldn't help you in this situation. You have the title, its your car being illegaly held. If he won't move his tractor and hand over the car, im sure he is breaking laws.
09-03-2003, 11:33 AM
#82
Race Director
Originally posted by Minus000
It really will just take a phone call to the police to get your car back. I don't understand why you haven't done it, there is no way that the police shouldn't help you in this situation. You have the title, its your car being illegaly held. If he won't move his tractor and hand over the car, im sure he is breaking laws.
It really will just take a phone call to the police to get your car back. I don't understand why you haven't done it, there is no way that the police shouldn't help you in this situation. You have the title, its your car being illegaly held. If he won't move his tractor and hand over the car, im sure he is breaking laws.
09-03-2003, 01:09 PM
#83
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Rob -
sorry about the crack you are in......that does suck. I know opinions on this situation are a dime a dozen, but thought I would offer mine anyway.
1) if you think a guy like this (we'll refer to him as arseclown for simplicity's sake) is really concerned about you putting the IRS on him, think again. All you can prove to the IRS is that he didn't report YOUR transaction as income.....big deal, in his tax bracket you are probably talking about him owing the IRS $500. And given his personality, it seems unlikely other people are going to speak up against him about how he didn't report their transaction either.
2) EPA - same as IRS. His conversation goes like this: "Yes sir, I think maybe once or twice when I was painting a friends car I may have spilled a bit of paint or thinner off the back porch. Could you provide me some liturature so I know what to do with it in the future?? I'm very sorry. Rob says I told him I do it all the time? No, Robs just mad at me, hell he even filed a lawsuit against me to make my life difficult."
Really, whats arseclown's exposure here, another $500 bucks, MAYBE????? To the EPA its just some homeowner getting careless in his yard, since he isn't actually a business. He could care less about the EPA, and they could care less about him.
3) Baseball bats - if you've got the *****, with a guy like this is probably the most effective approach, but also a big risk to you. You can't go over there to JUST think you will scare him.......you gotta be willing to do what it takes (Actually use the bats), and more imnportantly, risk the consequences. Its kinda the same theory as a handgun: if you pull it out of your belt, you better be damn well ready to pull the trigger and deal with the consequences, otherwise you are worse off than before you pulled it out. Way worse.
4) Building evidence: consider taping any remaining conversations (phone or in person) you have with him. having him on tape saying "I always get my money" will go a long way if it does make it to court.
5) HERES WHAT YOU DO: If I were you Bud, and I thank my personal god that I am not...........
I would call the police and report the car stolen. Since you already told them about the fight over the $$, you can't lie about that. However, you need to call and tell the police you went over to his house to pay him the $$ just to make the problem go away. Once you got there, he told you that he left the garage unlocked the night before, and someone stole the car. Tell them you looked in the garage, and the car was gone.
Since you are the owner of the car, it is your right to report the car stolen (based on the information provided by him that it was). This "conversation you had" with him was done verbally, in person, so its his word against yours that he told you the car was stolen. A day after you report it stolen, at night you call the cops and say another friend said he just saw your car driving down XYZ street. Tell them there is a guy on XYZ street who has worked on your car (again, not lying to the cops) and you are concerned he is the one who "stole it", but you are afraid to go over and see because the guy is a thug. This way you are not lying about your relationship with the arseclown, and its his word against your that he said it was stolen.
It'll be a different cop on duty at night, and hopefully he will go over to the garage, see the car, and since its been reported stolen, have a chat with Mr Arseclown. Now, of course Mr Arseclown doesn't have the title or registration in his name, and since he is not a business, he can't claim a lien, so hopefully they will tow it to the police lot. Now you've leveled the playing field, and he is the one who has to sue you over the $$ he claims you owe him, and he has to explain his way out of the larceny charge. At some point you make a side deal with him where you agree with him to drop the accusations of theft if he drops the claims for the $$$. Or maybe you don't, just to f~ck with him. Now you've got your car back, paid only the $2k, and the car isn't burning a mixture of 91 octane and Dominos Sugar.
Bottom Line: I agree with some previous posts that you don't want to do anything that puts in a position of risk (either physically or legally). Hell, if you were ACTUALLY going to be effective going the baseball bat route, you would have done it a long time ago and not spent hours writing about your other options on this board. However, if you think that going thru the legal process with a guy like will work out OK, you are crazy.
For grins lets assume that 4 months from now the judge rules that you've already paid Arseclown all he is going to get, and he has to give the car back. Now, who is going to enforce that ruling?? It will take another few months, $100's (or probably $1000s) of legal fees to get another ruling that sends the cops over to confiscate the car on your behalf, and once the ruling goes against arseclown, you can be sure that your car is gonna have to be towed, not driven out of that garage.
Good luck, I do truly feel sorry for you. But you are in a barfight, not a boxing ring, and as such if you want a chance at winning you are going to have to get scrappy and not get too caught up in following the letter of the law, as arseclown sure isnt going to do that.
If you decide to go with this strategy, email me and I'll delete the post so there is no paper trail of your strategy. hehehe
sorry about the crack you are in......that does suck. I know opinions on this situation are a dime a dozen, but thought I would offer mine anyway.
1) if you think a guy like this (we'll refer to him as arseclown for simplicity's sake) is really concerned about you putting the IRS on him, think again. All you can prove to the IRS is that he didn't report YOUR transaction as income.....big deal, in his tax bracket you are probably talking about him owing the IRS $500. And given his personality, it seems unlikely other people are going to speak up against him about how he didn't report their transaction either.
2) EPA - same as IRS. His conversation goes like this: "Yes sir, I think maybe once or twice when I was painting a friends car I may have spilled a bit of paint or thinner off the back porch. Could you provide me some liturature so I know what to do with it in the future?? I'm very sorry. Rob says I told him I do it all the time? No, Robs just mad at me, hell he even filed a lawsuit against me to make my life difficult."
Really, whats arseclown's exposure here, another $500 bucks, MAYBE????? To the EPA its just some homeowner getting careless in his yard, since he isn't actually a business. He could care less about the EPA, and they could care less about him.
3) Baseball bats - if you've got the *****, with a guy like this is probably the most effective approach, but also a big risk to you. You can't go over there to JUST think you will scare him.......you gotta be willing to do what it takes (Actually use the bats), and more imnportantly, risk the consequences. Its kinda the same theory as a handgun: if you pull it out of your belt, you better be damn well ready to pull the trigger and deal with the consequences, otherwise you are worse off than before you pulled it out. Way worse.
4) Building evidence: consider taping any remaining conversations (phone or in person) you have with him. having him on tape saying "I always get my money" will go a long way if it does make it to court.
5) HERES WHAT YOU DO: If I were you Bud, and I thank my personal god that I am not...........
I would call the police and report the car stolen. Since you already told them about the fight over the $$, you can't lie about that. However, you need to call and tell the police you went over to his house to pay him the $$ just to make the problem go away. Once you got there, he told you that he left the garage unlocked the night before, and someone stole the car. Tell them you looked in the garage, and the car was gone.
Since you are the owner of the car, it is your right to report the car stolen (based on the information provided by him that it was). This "conversation you had" with him was done verbally, in person, so its his word against yours that he told you the car was stolen. A day after you report it stolen, at night you call the cops and say another friend said he just saw your car driving down XYZ street. Tell them there is a guy on XYZ street who has worked on your car (again, not lying to the cops) and you are concerned he is the one who "stole it", but you are afraid to go over and see because the guy is a thug. This way you are not lying about your relationship with the arseclown, and its his word against your that he said it was stolen.
It'll be a different cop on duty at night, and hopefully he will go over to the garage, see the car, and since its been reported stolen, have a chat with Mr Arseclown. Now, of course Mr Arseclown doesn't have the title or registration in his name, and since he is not a business, he can't claim a lien, so hopefully they will tow it to the police lot. Now you've leveled the playing field, and he is the one who has to sue you over the $$ he claims you owe him, and he has to explain his way out of the larceny charge. At some point you make a side deal with him where you agree with him to drop the accusations of theft if he drops the claims for the $$$. Or maybe you don't, just to f~ck with him. Now you've got your car back, paid only the $2k, and the car isn't burning a mixture of 91 octane and Dominos Sugar.
Bottom Line: I agree with some previous posts that you don't want to do anything that puts in a position of risk (either physically or legally). Hell, if you were ACTUALLY going to be effective going the baseball bat route, you would have done it a long time ago and not spent hours writing about your other options on this board. However, if you think that going thru the legal process with a guy like will work out OK, you are crazy.
For grins lets assume that 4 months from now the judge rules that you've already paid Arseclown all he is going to get, and he has to give the car back. Now, who is going to enforce that ruling?? It will take another few months, $100's (or probably $1000s) of legal fees to get another ruling that sends the cops over to confiscate the car on your behalf, and once the ruling goes against arseclown, you can be sure that your car is gonna have to be towed, not driven out of that garage.
Good luck, I do truly feel sorry for you. But you are in a barfight, not a boxing ring, and as such if you want a chance at winning you are going to have to get scrappy and not get too caught up in following the letter of the law, as arseclown sure isnt going to do that.
If you decide to go with this strategy, email me and I'll delete the post so there is no paper trail of your strategy. hehehe
09-03-2003, 02:03 PM
#84
I'm thinking if you go over there with the Porsche Posse, dude may look at the gang of folks on his property and say, yeah OK, let me go in the house and get the keys to the tractor so I can move it out of the way. He'll go in the house, get his crappy Chinese SKS with the 30 round magazine, since for some reason rednecks seem to love those things, and come out threatening to pump some 7.62x39 up your bung hole. I'm sure you'll have a good reason for the cops to come over at that point, but I'm afraid it may be due to the fact that someone got shot.
South Caroline is a one party state regarding recording conversations, meaning only one party of the conversation needs to know the conversation is being recorded. So you can go over there and record any conversation you have with him and you don't have to let him know your doing it, since you are the one party who knows the conversation is being recorded.
You need to get your car back NOW. Go offer to pay him what he is trying to extort, but make sure you clearly state numerous times that he is robbing you and this was not the agreed to arrangement, etc. and get it all on tape. Now you have your car back in one piece and can sue him to get the excess dough back.
South Caroline is a one party state regarding recording conversations, meaning only one party of the conversation needs to know the conversation is being recorded. So you can go over there and record any conversation you have with him and you don't have to let him know your doing it, since you are the one party who knows the conversation is being recorded.
You need to get your car back NOW. Go offer to pay him what he is trying to extort, but make sure you clearly state numerous times that he is robbing you and this was not the agreed to arrangement, etc. and get it all on tape. Now you have your car back in one piece and can sue him to get the excess dough back.
09-03-2003, 02:31 PM
#85
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I thought of the "Meeting" at his house, to bad I don't live closer I could help you very much. Just a few ideas for you also, the whole group thing is ok, but not sure about how crazy he is so he might get a gun and just start shotting asking question later. You and some other people with good sense of automotive experience could go over there late at night like 2 or 3am, find a way to move his tractor. There has to be a way to move it if it is in gear, brake or blocked up. Then push it out of the way, open the door which will have a lock on it (bolt cutters are good for that), he might have another car in the way or other crap just be sure be quite. After that don't start your car, just put the key in and make sure everything is ready to go. Push the car out of the garage and put everything back the way you found it or close to it. Then start your car up and leave quitely, don't want him to know what you are doing. When you get home, get your car repainted by a good person. If he comes after you in court, just tell him you don't know what he is talking about. If I was in the area or even close I would help you, but Ohio and Florida isn't close. Oh yea, be sure to have a good alliby for that night, a few nights before and a few nights after. Good luck
09-03-2003, 05:10 PM
#86
Jane Bond 007
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Originally posted by Robwsup
Is MichelleJD still frequenting Rennlist? I bet she would have some choice words.
Is MichelleJD still frequenting Rennlist? I bet she would have some choice words.
09-03-2003, 05:25 PM
#87
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The police can't help you. The man has your car in his possession and so it will stay until a judge says otherwise,,or you and he come to an agreement outside of small claims court. The police aren't in the business of mediating disagreements.
But let's back up and look at this. You made a deal with a man, with no written documentation, and then the terms of the deal changed. Were you REALLY surprised? I don't want to sound harsh, but you got just what you should have expected.
My guess is that the judge is going to split the difference on what he claims you owe him. I wouldn't worry about the "storage charges", judges I've seen have no tolerance for such things,,especially at $45.00 per day.
And DO NOT do anything medieval,,unless you want this cat to own the car and your house. Take your lumps and learn from it. Sorry.
But let's back up and look at this. You made a deal with a man, with no written documentation, and then the terms of the deal changed. Were you REALLY surprised? I don't want to sound harsh, but you got just what you should have expected.
My guess is that the judge is going to split the difference on what he claims you owe him. I wouldn't worry about the "storage charges", judges I've seen have no tolerance for such things,,especially at $45.00 per day.
And DO NOT do anything medieval,,unless you want this cat to own the car and your house. Take your lumps and learn from it. Sorry.
09-03-2003, 05:56 PM
#88
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Thanks for all the advice everyone. I am taking my lawyers advice and have filed a claim and delivery as of yesterday. I talked to the court house and they said he will be served his subpoena in about an hour. Also served with this subpoena is a court order that he not damage or destroy the property. I doubt that will be enough to keep him from doing anything. On the other hand I think that he believes we will go to court and the judge will make me give him "his money" on that date.
09-03-2003, 07:18 PM
#90
I hope others can learn from this. You go for a backroom deal. In the end there is 1) a very good chance at losing a prized and expensive possession. 2) in the end you will be spending as much or more than it would have cost at a reputable shop. 3) you have been deprived of the enjoyment of your Porsche for 3 going on 4 months with no resolution in sight not to mention the aggrevation involved. 4) when all is said and done you will be back at a reputable shop in a few months when the paint is dull and starts peeling off. Where is the warranty of workmanship and materials in this case? This also does not account for your car being struck by a local "hailstorm" or suffering mechanical catastrophe while in his "care."
When entering into a deal like this remember that someone who works under the table to cheat "the Government" and only relies on verbal agreements is probably not going to lose too much sleep over robbing his "customers" Just something to think about before placing yourself in a similar situation. It also helps to do some research to find out what some good craftsmen charge for similar work and what the materials cost. You might find they aren't so expensive afterall, especially when time is factored in.
That said I hope everything works out and that this isn't too expensive a lesson.
When entering into a deal like this remember that someone who works under the table to cheat "the Government" and only relies on verbal agreements is probably not going to lose too much sleep over robbing his "customers" Just something to think about before placing yourself in a similar situation. It also helps to do some research to find out what some good craftsmen charge for similar work and what the materials cost. You might find they aren't so expensive afterall, especially when time is factored in.
That said I hope everything works out and that this isn't too expensive a lesson.