Help! What are my rights?
09-03-2003, 01:45 AM
#61
Yeah, I'm with emilysgranny on that one. The baseball bat thing that is. That's all just chest pounding machismo BS if you ask me. Unless you fancy spending at least the night in an Aiken PD holding cell, which based on Savannah's holding cells I don't think you do, then keep the physical threats out of this. I can tell you this too, threatening violence will only serve to steel his resolve to NOT give you your car back.
09-03-2003, 01:50 AM
#62
Unfortunately, as many have mentioned, every 'clue' that you give him about potential suits is another chance of sugar in the tank. That's the sad fact. Seems like Robert has put enough $ into the thing, and every time he pushes this guy a little further, he gets closer to getting back a crap car. Imagine his chagrin when the guy gives him back all $1900 and a car with no paint on it (which probably wouldn't be a bad thing, but you get my point). I think this is, in part why Travis and myself and quite a few others have (baseball bat jokes aside) suggested what are likely the least prolonged and straightforward options...in an attempt to minimize the damage. A few (read van full) of persuasive friends with mean looks are going to be much more persuasive about getting him to move his tractor than 30 days worth of quasi-subpoenas and letters to the EPA and IRS...given that I guess he takes cash, what trail would the IRS have for going after him? Given that he's not a registered business, what on earth is the EPA going to do? Write him another nasty letter? Just more ways to give this jerk off another opportunity to screw up his car more. Large groups of people are intimidating. Repo men are ruthless and efficient. Cops are formidable. Lawyers are laughable (go ahead, it's libel, sue me 
). Robert, I'm not suggesting you put yourself in harms way, the bat and kneecap trick is best left to crooked nosed thugs who are paid under the table. But there are likely more direct and effective measure to recover your property than a month long period of probable car destruction. Sure, pursue the legal route, absolutely, but in the interrim, there are quite a few legal, and/or questionable ways that you can work to get your car without breaking any laws or kneecaps...hopefully one of them might work in your favor and everything will be OK.
). Robert, I'm not suggesting you put yourself in harms way, the bat and kneecap trick is best left to crooked nosed thugs who are paid under the table. But there are likely more direct and effective measure to recover your property than a month long period of probable car destruction. Sure, pursue the legal route, absolutely, but in the interrim, there are quite a few legal, and/or questionable ways that you can work to get your car without breaking any laws or kneecaps...hopefully one of them might work in your favor and everything will be OK.
09-03-2003, 01:58 AM
#63
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Make sure when you go to court that you tell the judge he would not give you anything on paper because he wanted to avoid taxes etc,etc. Tell the judge that you plan on pursuing these matters with the appropriate authorities.Go to the place where you filed those small claims court and ask to have that statement included in your complaint. When he gets a copy of the summonses to appear he will s---t. Somehow he will find away to settle this quickly. Don't let him bully you and fake you out of your j strap. You own him.
09-03-2003, 02:02 AM
#64
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BTW, when you set a court date, they will send a registered letter subpenoing(however you spell it) him with advanced notice. I'd say if he's gonna have the trouble of court, he'd return the favor with "prove I screwed with his car" in mind. I hate to say it, but that is how thing like this go. If I was close, I'd be right there next to you man, I hate BS like this!
09-03-2003, 02:06 AM
#65
This isn't the "politcally correct" solution, and I will spare myself the flames by NOT giving details, but I will say this... I was confronted a few years back with a similar situation over my Harley. When the *ahem* gentleman decided he wasn't getting what he thought his work was worth after we had agreed on a price, I gave him exactly one chance to rethink his position. When he refused, I made him a "different" offer, and I made sure I was very convincing. I got my bike back immediately.
Its been said a couple of times on this thread, but if you are dealing with scum, you need to communicate in a manner that they will understand. You no longer have that option, having already involved the courts, police and just about everyone else. I would suggest in the future, that you not take shortcuts like this one unless you are prepared to play hardball. I do hope the courts treat you well, and I applaud your willingness to let the system work.
Regards,
Its been said a couple of times on this thread, but if you are dealing with scum, you need to communicate in a manner that they will understand. You no longer have that option, having already involved the courts, police and just about everyone else. I would suggest in the future, that you not take shortcuts like this one unless you are prepared to play hardball. I do hope the courts treat you well, and I applaud your willingness to let the system work.
Regards,
09-03-2003, 02:12 AM
#66
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Sorry I don't have any good legal advice, I'm still quite young and unexperienced with such matters. But this situation made me soo mad I had to get something out. I really agree about getting your car back. That ******* is very likely to do something, and you can't prove a damn thing. hopefully the bank will help you, and even more so, hopefully so will the IRS and EPA, even though what some are saying otherwise makes sense. This really ticks me, and theres not a good clear solution at all! For what its worth, my condolences, it is your baby, way to handle it so well and not go off and do something dumb. Man, just a bad situation, good luck man, keep us posted, were all involved now. and were all very pissed. I really hope everything works out for you. Tell us tomorrow if the bank is going to help.
09-03-2003, 02:25 AM
#67
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Re: Help! What are my rights?
Originally posted by Robwsup
Ok here's the short version of a long story:
I decided to have my car painted. A guy at work has a shop in his backyard and does painting/body work on the side, about two cars a month. I ask him how much to paint my car,and he said $600-$700 for materials, and another $600-$700 for labor, so a total of $1200-$1400.
When I bring the car to the shop, I inform him that I don't want anything masked off, I want to disassemble the car and replace all the rubber (seals, gaskets, mirror gaskets etc). I disassemble the car myself, creating no extra work for the shop.
During prep of the car for painting, he finds some Bondo that he believes needs to be replaced, I say do it, and he says it will be extra. I ask him if we are looking more like $2000 for the job, and he says that for $2000 it'll look like a show car. He says it will take 3 weeks to complete the paint. I give him $1000 up front and have given him $900 more since then. That was in May.
So now, 3 months and a week into the original three weeks, he says the car is finally ready. He kept bringing in other cars and putting my car on the back burner, then it just sat in his shop from July 5th to mid-August. The car looks decent, but definitely not a show car. It looks like what you would expect from a $2000 backyard bodywork paint job.
The problem is that he says the $1900 I have already given him will only cover the labor. He says the materials will cost me another $1350! He wants $3250 total. He will not let me take my car, and has parked his tractor (yep, tractor) in front of his shop door so their is no way to get it. He says I owe him $1350 and he will not let me have my car until I pay him. I asked him why the deal changed from ~$2000 and 3 weeks to $3250 and 3 months. He said,look I've been through these kind of things before and I'll get my money, oh yeah I'm charging you $45 a day for storage until I get my money.
He does this work all "under the table" to avoid business licensing, taxes, fire code, EPA paint shop rules, etc. So I have little or no paper work, no written estimate etc.
What the hell do I do?
Ok here's the short version of a long story:
I decided to have my car painted. A guy at work has a shop in his backyard and does painting/body work on the side, about two cars a month. I ask him how much to paint my car,and he said $600-$700 for materials, and another $600-$700 for labor, so a total of $1200-$1400.
When I bring the car to the shop, I inform him that I don't want anything masked off, I want to disassemble the car and replace all the rubber (seals, gaskets, mirror gaskets etc). I disassemble the car myself, creating no extra work for the shop.
During prep of the car for painting, he finds some Bondo that he believes needs to be replaced, I say do it, and he says it will be extra. I ask him if we are looking more like $2000 for the job, and he says that for $2000 it'll look like a show car. He says it will take 3 weeks to complete the paint. I give him $1000 up front and have given him $900 more since then. That was in May.
So now, 3 months and a week into the original three weeks, he says the car is finally ready. He kept bringing in other cars and putting my car on the back burner, then it just sat in his shop from July 5th to mid-August. The car looks decent, but definitely not a show car. It looks like what you would expect from a $2000 backyard bodywork paint job.
The problem is that he says the $1900 I have already given him will only cover the labor. He says the materials will cost me another $1350! He wants $3250 total. He will not let me take my car, and has parked his tractor (yep, tractor) in front of his shop door so their is no way to get it. He says I owe him $1350 and he will not let me have my car until I pay him. I asked him why the deal changed from ~$2000 and 3 weeks to $3250 and 3 months. He said,look I've been through these kind of things before and I'll get my money, oh yeah I'm charging you $45 a day for storage until I get my money.
He does this work all "under the table" to avoid business licensing, taxes, fire code, EPA paint shop rules, etc. So I have little or no paper work, no written estimate etc.
What the hell do I do?
Robwsup,
Sorry to hear about your pain....
I'd just taken a Business Law MBA class...I am not a lawyer, but perhaps I can shed some light from a business law standpoint based on what I learnt in class...
The court will review your case to determine if you had a "binding contract(s)". A binding contract must involve both an "offer" and "acceptance".
In your case, contract #1 involves his offer of $1200-$1400, and your acceptance of his offer.
Contract #2 superceded contract #1 with his new offer of $2000. You demonstrated an acceptance by issuing him a deposit of $1000 + $900 = $1,900.
The supposed contract #3 where he "offered" $3250 should not be considered binding because you did not offer an "acceptance" of this new contract.
The court will probably be looking to both you and him to offer evidence of the respective "offer" and "acceptance" for the supposed contract #3.
I understand the evidence is lacking in both of your cases. My hunch is that it will depend on the judge (e.g., how accomodating he is feeling on that day) and the strength of your respective arguments. I am going out on a limb here...unless you are able to present a more substantial, logical and calm argument over the defendent...I believe the judge will most likely ask that the both of you split it down the middle (due to the lack of offer and acceptance evidence for contract #3).
Be aware....assuming that you live in a state where sales tax is a factor in the case....the judge may hold one or both of you accountable for the lack of sales tax if he learns that it was not accounted for in the transaction...
GOOD LUCK!!!!
Last edited by ACG; 09-03-2003 at 01:52 PM.
09-03-2003, 06:50 AM
#69
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Hmmm... I think that since he is an under-the-table guy, then he has no right to keep your property, regardless of the who's right or wrong.
The police would probably be able to sort this out very quickly, since he is not the legal owner of the car.
-MAS
The police would probably be able to sort this out very quickly, since he is not the legal owner of the car.
-MAS
09-03-2003, 06:55 AM
#70
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"...its a civil matter and unfortunately there's not much the police can do"
No. The fact that the guy is keeping someone else car without his permission is not a civil matter. The money dispute is the civil matter.
The cops, after checking to see who owns the car, will almost certainly order the guy to give the car back. If he doesn't comply he would probably be liable to immediate arrest.
Again... the money issue is the civil matter, not the car.
-MAS
No. The fact that the guy is keeping someone else car without his permission is not a civil matter. The money dispute is the civil matter.
The cops, after checking to see who owns the car, will almost certainly order the guy to give the car back. If he doesn't comply he would probably be liable to immediate arrest.
Again... the money issue is the civil matter, not the car.
-MAS
09-03-2003, 07:48 AM
#71
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Originally posted by MAS
"...its a civil matter and unfortunately there's not much the police can do"
No. The fact that the guy is keeping someone else car without his permission is not a civil matter. The money dispute is the civil matter.
The cops, after checking to see who owns the car, will almost certainly order the guy to give the car back. If he doesn't comply he would probably be liable to immediate arrest.
Again... the money issue is the civil matter, not the car.
-MAS
"...its a civil matter and unfortunately there's not much the police can do"
No. The fact that the guy is keeping someone else car without his permission is not a civil matter. The money dispute is the civil matter.
The cops, after checking to see who owns the car, will almost certainly order the guy to give the car back. If he doesn't comply he would probably be liable to immediate arrest.
Again... the money issue is the civil matter, not the car.
-MAS
Cops are not going to intimidate anyone here.
The choices are very limited here. The authorities are already aware of a deal gone bad.
Choices are:
1. Get the car back in your possession and go to court to try to recoup the amount that was extorted.
2. Go to court to get the car back (and risk the guy screwing with it).
09-03-2003, 08:45 AM
#72
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IIRC, when I've taken out loans to buy a car in the U.S., the lender requires you to take out a full-coverage insurance policy on the vehicle. If that is the case with your lien, I wonder if by reporting the car to the bank as stolen (which I believe you have done already) the bank will get to work on recalling the loan with the insurance company.
Since the insurance company won't want to shell out unless absolutely necessary, they might try harder to get your car back sooner.
Since the insurance company won't want to shell out unless absolutely necessary, they might try harder to get your car back sooner.
09-03-2003, 08:58 AM
#73
Drifting
I'm with Geo, pay him the 1350 NOW before he gets wind of impending legal action, once you have your car back. Then YOU make it a civil matter by cancelling the check.
