Could this be for real? Wow is all I can say.
11-25-2013, 04:18 PM
#31
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Amber Lamps was referring to the few supporters of Obama that often frequent the P&C member forum on Rennslist....
to whom I REFER TO - AS COMMUNISTS !!!
i grew up next door to a classic gearhead, hot-rodder, and regional automotive legend....
he would often state something akin to the following from the hot-rodding Bible;
"when you put prodigious amounts of money and aggravation into the engine bay,
you should get something back - in terms of increased reliability or performance..."
it's hard to see such a symbiotic relationship going on with the 924, 944 and 968 in the afterworld. at best, it's fuzzy.
in most cases, I see owners as having received neither.
I had a new 944. it was a completely different story. and I've posted that fact dozens of times.
I think Raceboy's endless (dozens) insults are barely called for. I simply disagree with him and several enthusiasts about what makes for a reasonably dependable entry-level sports car. it's definitely done with an element of satire... still, I don't believe that the 944/944T and 968 are very strong candidates as reasonably dependable by any normal standard. and as a result, I see highly-loyal owners of both the 944 and the Porsche brand suffer seemingly-endless significant financial losses, and leave the forum/s (beaten), never to be seen again.
it's often said that the reason A or B car isn't running is because it was neglected....
Jesus, I disagree.
ok, sometimes it's true.
but, let one of these cars sit a couple of months, and a well-maintained 944/68,
turns into a basket case before your eyes.
and when there's a baby on the way and it comes time to sell it, you descend to demon status
in the 4 cylinder P-car world....
hell, just the electrical systems alone on these cars are effing FRIED.
but all the endless problems, gremlins, no starts, and cataclysms is for another thread for me to BITCH ON....
however, let's take my opinion with a bit of levity. IT'S JUST SOMEBODY'S GOD-DAMNED OPINION.
I'm not going to convince the guy with the faux McQueen's Blue 924 that an American V8 is a solid performer
and viable powerplant candidate on such X number of cars any more than he'll convince me to rebuild one of
these petulant, semi-exotic, grossly over-priced, gutless sewing machines.
I'm not new to the cars. I'm experienced owner and enthusiast with 200 k + miles driving and maintaining 2 typical 4 cylinder P-cars....
I've read hundreds, probably thousands of threads
and taken an empirical look (and notes) at people's experiences driving and maintaining the cars.
my overall impression is something akin to the observance of one seriously-epic cluster f_ck.
so many lovers who the living **** kicked out of them... to go along with a line of attrition and death stretching out to infinity.....
like some 4 cylinder P-car owners (and nearly all 911 owners) i don't do the timing belts, H20 pumps and clutches. no thanks. way
too much fuss and very thin margin for error that doesn't fit my lifestyle.... i'll continue to leave the deep wrenching to others.
just the same, i don't need to apologize to the classic America hater for not fitting into his sacred owner/wrencher/everything Porsche motif.
unfortunately, at some point, the laws of diminishing returns takes over with the vast majority of these cars.
and this has, without ambiguity, occurred with my 968.
drive your 968 past 140~150 k miles, and you will very likely, experience the same.
*(I read a webpage posted by another guy who chronicled his 968 ownership from newish/used to middle-aged)
finally, he just bailed.
but for some, like Gene and myself, the answer was to go V8.
mine is built and ready for install,
and barring some unforeseen catastrophe, i should enjoy a noticeable increase in the performance and reliability of my car (Hot-Rodding 101)
that i've long been looking for.
to whom I REFER TO - AS COMMUNISTS !!!
i grew up next door to a classic gearhead, hot-rodder, and regional automotive legend....
he would often state something akin to the following from the hot-rodding Bible;
"when you put prodigious amounts of money and aggravation into the engine bay,
you should get something back - in terms of increased reliability or performance..."
it's hard to see such a symbiotic relationship going on with the 924, 944 and 968 in the afterworld. at best, it's fuzzy.
in most cases, I see owners as having received neither.
I had a new 944. it was a completely different story. and I've posted that fact dozens of times.
I think Raceboy's endless (dozens) insults are barely called for. I simply disagree with him and several enthusiasts about what makes for a reasonably dependable entry-level sports car. it's definitely done with an element of satire... still, I don't believe that the 944/944T and 968 are very strong candidates as reasonably dependable by any normal standard. and as a result, I see highly-loyal owners of both the 944 and the Porsche brand suffer seemingly-endless significant financial losses, and leave the forum/s (beaten), never to be seen again.
it's often said that the reason A or B car isn't running is because it was neglected....
Jesus, I disagree.
ok, sometimes it's true.
but, let one of these cars sit a couple of months, and a well-maintained 944/68,
turns into a basket case before your eyes.
and when there's a baby on the way and it comes time to sell it, you descend to demon status
in the 4 cylinder P-car world....
hell, just the electrical systems alone on these cars are effing FRIED.
but all the endless problems, gremlins, no starts, and cataclysms is for another thread for me to BITCH ON....
however, let's take my opinion with a bit of levity. IT'S JUST SOMEBODY'S GOD-DAMNED OPINION.
I'm not going to convince the guy with the faux McQueen's Blue 924 that an American V8 is a solid performer
and viable powerplant candidate on such X number of cars any more than he'll convince me to rebuild one of
these petulant, semi-exotic, grossly over-priced, gutless sewing machines.
I'm not new to the cars. I'm experienced owner and enthusiast with 200 k + miles driving and maintaining 2 typical 4 cylinder P-cars....
I've read hundreds, probably thousands of threads
and taken an empirical look (and notes) at people's experiences driving and maintaining the cars.
my overall impression is something akin to the observance of one seriously-epic cluster f_ck.
so many lovers who the living **** kicked out of them... to go along with a line of attrition and death stretching out to infinity.....
like some 4 cylinder P-car owners (and nearly all 911 owners) i don't do the timing belts, H20 pumps and clutches. no thanks. way
too much fuss and very thin margin for error that doesn't fit my lifestyle.... i'll continue to leave the deep wrenching to others.
just the same, i don't need to apologize to the classic America hater for not fitting into his sacred owner/wrencher/everything Porsche motif.
unfortunately, at some point, the laws of diminishing returns takes over with the vast majority of these cars.
and this has, without ambiguity, occurred with my 968.
drive your 968 past 140~150 k miles, and you will very likely, experience the same.
*(I read a webpage posted by another guy who chronicled his 968 ownership from newish/used to middle-aged)
finally, he just bailed.
but for some, like Gene and myself, the answer was to go V8.
mine is built and ready for install,
and barring some unforeseen catastrophe, i should enjoy a noticeable increase in the performance and reliability of my car (Hot-Rodding 101)
that i've long been looking for.
Last edited by odurandina; 11-25-2013 at 05:16 PM.
11-25-2013, 04:50 PM
#32
Three Wheelin'
I'll give you that...a coherent reply.
However...i said this many times before...US cars must have been built from ****....mine is 30 years old, sits around 6-7 months every year. When temps drop below 10°C i put it to sleep and i take it out in the spring. IT NEVER MISSED A BEAT. I do 3-4 and close to 5000Km tours with it almost every summer.
I crossed the Alps with it, maxed it out on the german autobahns....i did the Nurburgring in it and it took me 2000Kms back home after that FFS !
Electrics still work....everything works. Its quite fast, reliable and somewhat economical.
However...i said this many times before...US cars must have been built from ****....mine is 30 years old, sits around 6-7 months every year. When temps drop below 10°C i put it to sleep and i take it out in the spring. IT NEVER MISSED A BEAT. I do 3-4 and close to 5000Km tours with it almost every summer.
I crossed the Alps with it, maxed it out on the german autobahns....i did the Nurburgring in it and it took me 2000Kms back home after that FFS !
Electrics still work....everything works. Its quite fast, reliable and somewhat economical.
11-25-2013, 05:21 PM
#33
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well,
I'm not sure what you've driven recently.
the American cars being built, at least at the Ford plants, are reliable and low-cost drivers even after 200 k miles.
all of my friends family and Rennlisters on OT love 'em.
I just rented a V6 Mustang last week and took it to Daytona Beach.
awesome car! (turning it in on the 3rd).
and the Mopar, Ford and Chevy V8's have been very good since the early EFI technology gave way to modern engine management.
like I've said over and over, if you're limiting use to 7~10 k miles/year you'll have little difficulty keeping a 944/968 on the road.
but try doing that if you drive 25~30 k miles per year.
I'd have been better off not changing anything until the H20 pump or belts failed,
and, at such time, changed to v8.
I'm not sure what you've driven recently.
the American cars being built, at least at the Ford plants, are reliable and low-cost drivers even after 200 k miles.
all of my friends family and Rennlisters on OT love 'em.
I just rented a V6 Mustang last week and took it to Daytona Beach.
awesome car! (turning it in on the 3rd).
and the Mopar, Ford and Chevy V8's have been very good since the early EFI technology gave way to modern engine management.
like I've said over and over, if you're limiting use to 7~10 k miles/year you'll have little difficulty keeping a 944/968 on the road.
but try doing that if you drive 25~30 k miles per year.
I'd have been better off not changing anything until the H20 pump or belts failed,
and, at such time, changed to v8.
11-25-2013, 05:38 PM
#34
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OD you missed the part that we live in europe.
We deal with fiats, vws, lancias, renaults, dacias, opels, audis, volvos, mercs, hyundais, kias...
Almost all our cars are belt driven 4 bangers and not reliable after 30 years, most are junk after 5.
But every garbage has 10 or 15 engine choices and modern efficient designs, with quality interiors. Very different principles than ancient pushrod in million different chasis with horrible interiors and mediocre suspension.
I will never ever understand why new mustangs are such crap inside. Ugly plastic copy of 1990 volvo style. Really wtf, it is way worse than even renault clio. The cheapest car here.
We deal with fiats, vws, lancias, renaults, dacias, opels, audis, volvos, mercs, hyundais, kias...
Almost all our cars are belt driven 4 bangers and not reliable after 30 years, most are junk after 5.
But every garbage has 10 or 15 engine choices and modern efficient designs, with quality interiors. Very different principles than ancient pushrod in million different chasis with horrible interiors and mediocre suspension.
I will never ever understand why new mustangs are such crap inside. Ugly plastic copy of 1990 volvo style. Really wtf, it is way worse than even renault clio. The cheapest car here.
Last edited by Voith; 11-25-2013 at 06:00 PM.
11-25-2013, 06:01 PM
#35
Burning Brakes
I second everything Voith said, over here American cars are not considered to be reliable or compatible to European cars quality wise.
And many of them beeing the gas guzzlers (yes, they are improving) they struggle in a marked where the fuel price is close to 9 USD pr gallon.
If you are doing 25-30k miles pr. year here in Euroland you will most probably be driving a company vehicle with a diesel engine
And many of them beeing the gas guzzlers (yes, they are improving) they struggle in a marked where the fuel price is close to 9 USD pr gallon.
If you are doing 25-30k miles pr. year here in Euroland you will most probably be driving a company vehicle with a diesel engine
11-25-2013, 06:55 PM
#36
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I second everything Voith said, over here American cars are not considered to be reliable or compatible to European cars quality wise.
And many of them beeing the gas guzzlers (yes, they are improving) they struggle in a marked where the fuel price is close to 9 USD pr gallon.
If you are doing 25-30k miles pr. year here in Euroland you will most probably be driving a company vehicle with a diesel engine
And many of them beeing the gas guzzlers (yes, they are improving) they struggle in a marked where the fuel price is close to 9 USD pr gallon.
If you are doing 25-30k miles pr. year here in Euroland you will most probably be driving a company vehicle with a diesel engine
Most reliable car is Toyota Camry, Corolla and Honda Accord. But Hyundai and Kia are getting there as well, it seems to me little better or same as US made cars.
11-25-2013, 07:09 PM
#37
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Problem I see here is that our mechanics must know how to service literally hundreds of engine types, so it doesnt take 6 hours for them to replace steering lines on 944.
I am stunned by time estimates for 944 by us shop, posted in another thread. Obviously if you get charged that much for work on these and do not have the diy skill set, maintenence gets skipped and 20~30y old car sooner or later fails.
Servicing simple v8 is cheap since it is around forever. I see the benefit, but it works only in usa. Here LSx engines are rare since people like advanced designs and dont like fuel pumps.
If you prefer gas guzzling multi cylinder engines, you can get state of art 5L V10 8,250 rpm e60 M5 relatively cheap here these days. It absolutely kills 99% of LS powered cars and has 4 doors and ability to be as smooth as silk.
I am stunned by time estimates for 944 by us shop, posted in another thread. Obviously if you get charged that much for work on these and do not have the diy skill set, maintenence gets skipped and 20~30y old car sooner or later fails.
Servicing simple v8 is cheap since it is around forever. I see the benefit, but it works only in usa. Here LSx engines are rare since people like advanced designs and dont like fuel pumps.
If you prefer gas guzzling multi cylinder engines, you can get state of art 5L V10 8,250 rpm e60 M5 relatively cheap here these days. It absolutely kills 99% of LS powered cars and has 4 doors and ability to be as smooth as silk.
Last edited by Voith; 11-25-2013 at 07:52 PM.
11-25-2013, 07:14 PM
#38
Burning Brakes
Well, I did not want to start a war here. You have one opinion and i have another opinion.
The British tend to favor their cars.
The Germans favor the German cars and so on . . .
In my opinion the Japanese cars are probably (in general) the ones that are most reliable with the Korean cars in a strong second place. I have had several Japanese, American and European cars. The cars that are closest to my heart are the german ones. But thats just me, I respect people that are interested in US muscle cars, British made vehicles or what ever.
The thing is that some guys like fat girls and others like skinny girls, some like inline fours and others like V8´s. That´s just the way life is and no one is right and no one is wrong
What I know is that the 2006 Ford F350 company car that i drive has cost more than 10000 USD in workshop bills this year only (these trucks are ridicilusly expensive to run over here (luckily it runs on jet fuel so the fuel cost is not to bad)).
My Porsche´s eat out of my hobby budget and are not my daily drivers. So when one of them stops I can look forward to spending some hours in the garage on a car that was designed to be repaired and I can do it when I can afford it.
It is a long time ago that i realised that it is actually cheaper to buy a decent car to have as a daily driver than to try to rely on a 20+ year old car for that kind of duty. For that I have a Audi A2 with a 75 hp 1,4 liter diesel engine, that car sees about 20K miles each year on the horrible Norwegan roads.
I know that the F350 is not realy representable, but of the American made cars it is probably Jeep that sells most cars here in Norway. Other US made cars are almost non existing
I would like to add : I do all mechanical work (apart from the F350 company car) myself and I really enjoy it
phlfly : are you a pilot ?
The British tend to favor their cars.
The Germans favor the German cars and so on . . .
In my opinion the Japanese cars are probably (in general) the ones that are most reliable with the Korean cars in a strong second place. I have had several Japanese, American and European cars. The cars that are closest to my heart are the german ones. But thats just me, I respect people that are interested in US muscle cars, British made vehicles or what ever.
The thing is that some guys like fat girls and others like skinny girls, some like inline fours and others like V8´s. That´s just the way life is and no one is right and no one is wrong
What I know is that the 2006 Ford F350 company car that i drive has cost more than 10000 USD in workshop bills this year only (these trucks are ridicilusly expensive to run over here (luckily it runs on jet fuel so the fuel cost is not to bad)).
My Porsche´s eat out of my hobby budget and are not my daily drivers. So when one of them stops I can look forward to spending some hours in the garage on a car that was designed to be repaired and I can do it when I can afford it.
It is a long time ago that i realised that it is actually cheaper to buy a decent car to have as a daily driver than to try to rely on a 20+ year old car for that kind of duty. For that I have a Audi A2 with a 75 hp 1,4 liter diesel engine, that car sees about 20K miles each year on the horrible Norwegan roads.
I know that the F350 is not realy representable, but of the American made cars it is probably Jeep that sells most cars here in Norway. Other US made cars are almost non existing
I would like to add : I do all mechanical work (apart from the F350 company car) myself and I really enjoy it
phlfly : are you a pilot ?
Last edited by Akerlie; 11-25-2013 at 07:42 PM.
11-26-2013, 12:01 PM
#39
Rennlist Member
I've owned several V-8s (Ford & Porsche), a some V6s (Yamaha, Mazda, Isuzu, & Porsche), a lot of 4s (Ford, Renault, Toyota, Fiat, Porsche, Mazda), even a couple Subaru boxer 4s. I've driven turbine-powered vehicles, too.
Bring on the girls!
11-26-2013, 01:52 PM
#40
Three Wheelin'
i sold my 1996 VW golf at 465.000 Km to a friend..he is using it as a daily driver and he puts 30k on it per year.
Before the golf i had a 350.000Km 1986 diesel audi !
I bought a 2001 230.000 VW passat to replace the golf...i plan to keep this car for at least 5 years.
Raceboy's 924 has over 300.000Km.
My 924 has about 130.000Km.
My blue 924 turbo has about 160.000Km, i bought it off ebay. I picked it up near London and drove it home about 2500Km.
Mercedes taxis get sold to the population after they pass 800.000-1.000.000Kms and people still put some serious miles on those cars.
In Europe Fiats are cheapo cars...so are Fords and Chevys. I dont expect them to work...but newer ones do work for a while.
11-26-2013, 03:36 PM
#41
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the interiors aren't so good.
but the suspension isn't bad by accident. it's to accommodate the roads.
we have more roads. lots more roads.
saw a statistic once on the number of miles/km of roads we got.
it's more than Europe by that much (Jeremy Clarkson's arms stretched to infinity).
the fuel mileage on this Mustang boggles the mind.
but the interior on this rental is stripped-down base-model cheap.
but they market the base cars for the seriously impoverished proletariat masses.
whoa there daddy, careful....
may be too much / too fast in these parts.
but the suspension isn't bad by accident. it's to accommodate the roads.
we have more roads. lots more roads.
saw a statistic once on the number of miles/km of roads we got.
it's more than Europe by that much (Jeremy Clarkson's arms stretched to infinity).
the fuel mileage on this Mustang boggles the mind.
but the interior on this rental is stripped-down base-model cheap.
but they market the base cars for the seriously impoverished proletariat masses.
whoa there daddy, careful....
may be too much / too fast in these parts.
Last edited by odurandina; 11-26-2013 at 05:06 PM.
11-26-2013, 04:32 PM
#42
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Its just not appealing compared to other available cars here.
http://www.avto.net/_AVTO/ad.asp?ID=...d-Up%20display
http://www.avto.net/_AVTO/ad.asp?ID=...tang%20GT%20V8
No brainer.
http://www.avto.net/_AVTO/ad.asp?ID=...d-Up%20display
http://www.avto.net/_AVTO/ad.asp?ID=...tang%20GT%20V8
No brainer.
11-26-2013, 05:08 PM
#43
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sorry, ny post got cut....
I'm at the eye doctor here in Daytona for my 5 year checkup and my mobile signal is bad...
but, I agree.
the American car makers have been 10 years behind on car interiors for since how long I can remember.
just like Porsche with the horrid 968 dash from the mid-1980s.
hey, but at least they don't push that horrid Alcantera vomit.
I'm at the eye doctor here in Daytona for my 5 year checkup and my mobile signal is bad...
but, I agree.
the American car makers have been 10 years behind on car interiors for since how long I can remember.
just like Porsche with the horrid 968 dash from the mid-1980s.
hey, but at least they don't push that horrid Alcantera vomit.
11-26-2013, 08:39 PM
#44
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Do you guys really wander this far off topic on a regular basis? We are talking about the collectible nature of this particular car. Bringing in other makes and models is just nonsense. Who cares if some Abarth is worth of the title "sports car" in the context of 924S's worthiness as a staple mate of a 911S? 
Do I need to forward the link to Byron and get this over with?
Do I need to forward the link to Byron and get this over with?