Mike S.

I'm interested in buying a 5 pt harness for my 951. For autocross and driver eds. No racing. Several questions:

1. What brands (and models) do you recommend and who has the best prices?

2. Is a used harness worth considering?

3. What modifications to the interior are required?

Thanks,
Mike

Tabor

IMHO the only harness to buy is a Schroth. This is because Schroth is the only DOT approved harness in the world.

However, IMO harnesses are only safe if you have a roll cage.

944Fest (aka Dan P)

I'm very happy with my Simpson set, but it may not be the cheapest way to go. I have a 4 point set in my 951. The 5th, anti-sub belt, should have a hole in the seat to be perfect, but I've seen them run between the upper and lower seat, so it would be more like a wedgeee strap. The harness guide bars that weltmeister makes for around $175 could hold your shoulder straps, but I've had DE tech inspectors frown and say those are just "guide" bars, you should go through the guide and to the floor in the back. I tried to do it with no drilling, and so far I'm OK. I'm selling my Weltmeister guide bar and investing in this rollbar (http://www.homestead.com/redlinerennsport/SafeguardPage.html) It seems the primo way to go. (no drilling!) Some folks will say if you have harnesses and no roll bar, it is asking for trouble (your neck would be holding up the car) but my experience the roofs of our cars are quite rigid..but I wouldn't want to test it)
The lap belt will bolt to the outer seat belt anchor OK, but the inner bolts to the seat itself. OK for PCA stuff, but I think SCCA wants the lap belts bolted to the floor or frame.
Remember, for PCA stuff the passenger (instructor) must have the same belt set up as the driver.. Kind of funny if you think about the 3-point passenger hanging on as the 5 point driver takes him for a hell ride, having confidence in his 5 points! It is a great feeling being buckled in, not having to fight the G's as you crank and bank. It is actually easier to drive, not having to worry about holding on and bracing. And when you take someone for a ride and they need instructions on how to buckle up, they know it is something SERIOUS!
I imagine the guide bar would be OK for autocross, I think I've already sold my large diameter one, I have a smaller diameter early version weltmeister available..I think..the price would be very right. (probably less than the shipping!)
I wouldn't even consider used belts..

The belts, done right, are a GREAT mod to our cars..

DP

Dave in Chicago

I bought the Schroth 6-points for DE. I believe they are the stock harnesses for the racing P-cars. They are nicely made, camlocks, convenient to use (I have pull downs), and their clips fit the Brey Krause quick clips. Installing these BK units allows for 3-points to remain, while having quick and easy install/de-install of the harnesses (takes me 5 minutes to put them in).

I do run a Redline Rennsport bolt-in roll bar with the harnesses, but still run stock seats.

Don't know the cheapest place to get them, but was pleased to buy mine at NorthStar Motorsports locally and get good advice on set-up.

Also, do check with your local PCA region tech/safety folks. The combinations of harnesses, harness bars, seats, etc. vary a little and can evolve over time. You'll want to be sure that you will meet these requirements when you show up at the track.

Usual disclaimers, just a happy customer.

Keep the shiny side up,

Mike S.

Dan, Dave and Tabor,

Thanks. Great advice.

Mike

Skip

Just some points to ponder:

1. While some companies can claim their belts are DOT approved, that only applies to the specific vehicles in which they were mapped, installed, tested, and given certification. The belts do not recieve the certification by themselves, it is part of the entire installation and checkout package performed by the US DOT. Most belt manufacturers do not have the resources to get DOT certification for their street use belts in the many platforms in which they are used. I have not seen any reference to a manufacturer having such a certification for any Porsche applications. That said, all tuning and competition belts are of the same or better quality than that of the OE set, and should all be considered quite safe. FWIK, there are no companies that perform any DOT certification testing on 3" competition belts... they are meant for competition, and carry all the credentials of the SFI and FIA.
2. An unfortunate truth; safety rules are borne of experiences with varying levels of disaster. The PCA club race rules are fairly specific about seat belt mounting. While these rules are not generally enforced at DE's (and certainly not at autocross), I think the reasoning behind them is just as pertinent. First, no competition seat belts may mount to the seat, base, slider, or anything other than the chassis, or an approved rollbar. Second, no two belts may share the same attaching point (this is important when mounting sub belts). If the intent for other-than-stock seat belts is to provide a better seat feel, then the tuning/street 2" 3 and 4 point harnesses should be considered. If the application is meant to save you in the event of a crash, then you probably want a 3" 5 or 6 point competition harness, preferably with rollover protection and a properly designed seat (street seats with shoulder harness holes are certainly sufficient).

Devices like the Redline unit provide the DE participant with rollover protection and proper harness mounting, uses some smart mounting techniques (uses stock reinforced seat belt mounts), and does this all without rucking up the interior. (FYI, no financial interest in the Hajny setup, just wish I had one) There are other bolt-in roll-bars on the market also.

Good Luck!

Skip

Tabor

Thanks for the added info Skip. I didn't realize that belts had to be approved for specific cars.

Here is some info for you: The Schroth Profi III-FE asm is alledgedly DOT approved. This is a 3" 4-point FIA approved belt that you can add a sub-strap to.

Skip

Since the Schroth DOT certifications are not in the public domain, you'd have to contact them to see if they have DOT approval for the 944, or are planning it.

Truthfully, belts is belts... they all get SFI/FIA approval, and that's good enough for me.

Skip

Tom

From my observational experience, there doesn't seem to be much difference in brands of competition (3") belts. The hardware and webbing seem to be the same in comparable systems (cam lock, etc). Also I recommend the Redline rollbar system. It is relatively easy to install and remove and non-intrusive to the car. It does require the rear seat to be up (assuming you have a rear seat). If you do wish to just get 1 harness set, make sure you retain your stock belts so you and the instructor remain on equal footing when you drive with an instructor.