Two Sides to Every Story...
08-17-2001, 02:42 PM
#1
Track Day
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Putney, VT
Posts: 21
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Two Sides to Every Story...
Dear Rennlist Members,
Recently, member Konrad Alvarino has blanketed the entire Rennlist with a grossly skewed tale of woe that pretty much paints Windward Performance Products, Inc. (and myself) as the "anti-christ" in the Porsche performance arena.
For those of you who do not wish to read an extremely long post (which this is) let me just say here and now that there are two sides to every story, and his does not even closely approximate the truth. He did suggest that (until I hung up on him) I had been helpful and courteous, and that is true. I will not, however, subject myself to ranting, raving, and profanity from any customer. I will hang up every time, and if you can't handle that sort of rejection, then there is no shame in therapy.
I am now going to present the truth.
This regrettable situation did not unfold at all as Mr. Alvarino suggests, and he has neglected some very important points, and lied about others.
First, let it be known that he threatened me with a serious Rennlist flaming if we did not bow to his completely unreasonable demands, and he obviously made good on his promise. Unfortunately, he has shown neither honor nor shame in his post regarding his deliberate misrepresentation of the facts.
As many in the Porsche community may remember, there was a "drought" of H&R coil-over kits in the U.S. for awhile. During this time, Mr. Alvarino wished to obtain one for his 993 Twin Turbo. Upon checking, I was able to inform him that we had one H&R coil-over #29590-2 in stock that was missing the spherical-bearing upper camber plates and rear upper shock mounts. I offered to furnish the very nice E.R.P. units in their place for no additional charge. (Our customers will be familiar with the E.R.P. line--they are arguably some of the nicest components available, and are much more expensive than their H&R counterparts.)
He not only agreed, but thanked me, stating that this was a much better alternative than waiting the 6-8 weeks that H&R was quoting to get more of these systems in from Germany.
The system was sent to him, and what ensued was a nightmare. He did not understand how to install it, and was quite indignant and upset when he found out that the car had to be re-aligned and corner balanced after the installation of the suspension! At this time, I suggested (in the nicest, friendliest manner that I could) that he may be a bit over his head on this project and should consult a local shop for installation.
He then got mad and wanted to ship it back. I agreed, based on the assumption that it was in "as-new" condition. When I received it, it was inspected and found that it was very scratched, dented, and not saleable at all, let alone as new. (He did not even do us the courtesy of using original packaging--it was simply all thrown together in a big box with no packing materials, and arrived in horrible condition, ripped, with bushings and hardware dropping out of the mutilated packaging.)
I called him, and told him that it would not be accepted. After numerous phone calls, we agreed on a compromise--I would honor the refund in the form of a store credit to be used toward another purchase, minus the money necessary to replace the missing and damaged components. He agreed.
It should also be noted (and our customers are all aware of this) that prior to shipping any order, the customer signs off on a confirmation sheet that clearly states our return policy and re-stock fees.
Unfortunately, after agreeing to this, he did a chargeback on his credit card. We have submitted all documentation to both banks, and (after extensive exchanges) both banks ruled in our favor regarding the re-stocking fee, having clearly illustrated Mr. Alvarinos signature agreeing to these terms for this sale.
Mr. Alvarino neglected to mention that he already fought this battle and lost, and the whole situation could have been avoided completely by adhering to our agreement.
Instead, he has chosen to take the low-road.
As he said, I did my best to remain courteous to him throughout this ordeal, and I (and everyone else here) takes customer service seriously. We are NOT however, LLBean or Nordstroms, and Mr. Alvarino was not trying to return a sweater. There are some different issues at stake when it is a custom coil-over system for a $100K Porsche 993 Twin Turbo, and I did my best to keep him happy, but that does not extend to accepting a $2800.00 box of shrapnel for a refund. He did well to even recieve a partial credit, and we now have a scratched, dented, coil-over system that will probably set on our shelves for quite some time.
Sorry for all that this did not work out, but realize that anyone, at any time, can post anything they wish and (unfortunately) people will crawl out from under rocks everywhere to become party to a good, old fashioned Rennlist flaming.
I sincerely hope you don't believe everything you read on the internet.
The Rennlist is an invaluable resource for any Porschephile, and it is too bad that it is used as a forum to spread lies and grind axes, and not for the wealth of technical information and experience that it contains.
If you need performance items for a Porsche, we will continue to go above and beyond to provide the best products, the best service, the lowest prices and the best technical support available in the industry.
As for you, Mr. Alvarino, I sincerely hope you find another purveyor with whom to build a constructive relationship that will enhance your enjoyment of owning that very special Porsche.
Thanks for your attention, and sorry for the length of this post.
Best Regards,
Dan
Windward Performance Products, Inc.
Recently, member Konrad Alvarino has blanketed the entire Rennlist with a grossly skewed tale of woe that pretty much paints Windward Performance Products, Inc. (and myself) as the "anti-christ" in the Porsche performance arena.
For those of you who do not wish to read an extremely long post (which this is) let me just say here and now that there are two sides to every story, and his does not even closely approximate the truth. He did suggest that (until I hung up on him) I had been helpful and courteous, and that is true. I will not, however, subject myself to ranting, raving, and profanity from any customer. I will hang up every time, and if you can't handle that sort of rejection, then there is no shame in therapy.
I am now going to present the truth.
This regrettable situation did not unfold at all as Mr. Alvarino suggests, and he has neglected some very important points, and lied about others.
First, let it be known that he threatened me with a serious Rennlist flaming if we did not bow to his completely unreasonable demands, and he obviously made good on his promise. Unfortunately, he has shown neither honor nor shame in his post regarding his deliberate misrepresentation of the facts.
As many in the Porsche community may remember, there was a "drought" of H&R coil-over kits in the U.S. for awhile. During this time, Mr. Alvarino wished to obtain one for his 993 Twin Turbo. Upon checking, I was able to inform him that we had one H&R coil-over #29590-2 in stock that was missing the spherical-bearing upper camber plates and rear upper shock mounts. I offered to furnish the very nice E.R.P. units in their place for no additional charge. (Our customers will be familiar with the E.R.P. line--they are arguably some of the nicest components available, and are much more expensive than their H&R counterparts.)
He not only agreed, but thanked me, stating that this was a much better alternative than waiting the 6-8 weeks that H&R was quoting to get more of these systems in from Germany.
The system was sent to him, and what ensued was a nightmare. He did not understand how to install it, and was quite indignant and upset when he found out that the car had to be re-aligned and corner balanced after the installation of the suspension! At this time, I suggested (in the nicest, friendliest manner that I could) that he may be a bit over his head on this project and should consult a local shop for installation.
He then got mad and wanted to ship it back. I agreed, based on the assumption that it was in "as-new" condition. When I received it, it was inspected and found that it was very scratched, dented, and not saleable at all, let alone as new. (He did not even do us the courtesy of using original packaging--it was simply all thrown together in a big box with no packing materials, and arrived in horrible condition, ripped, with bushings and hardware dropping out of the mutilated packaging.)
I called him, and told him that it would not be accepted. After numerous phone calls, we agreed on a compromise--I would honor the refund in the form of a store credit to be used toward another purchase, minus the money necessary to replace the missing and damaged components. He agreed.
It should also be noted (and our customers are all aware of this) that prior to shipping any order, the customer signs off on a confirmation sheet that clearly states our return policy and re-stock fees.
Unfortunately, after agreeing to this, he did a chargeback on his credit card. We have submitted all documentation to both banks, and (after extensive exchanges) both banks ruled in our favor regarding the re-stocking fee, having clearly illustrated Mr. Alvarinos signature agreeing to these terms for this sale.
Mr. Alvarino neglected to mention that he already fought this battle and lost, and the whole situation could have been avoided completely by adhering to our agreement.
Instead, he has chosen to take the low-road.
As he said, I did my best to remain courteous to him throughout this ordeal, and I (and everyone else here) takes customer service seriously. We are NOT however, LLBean or Nordstroms, and Mr. Alvarino was not trying to return a sweater. There are some different issues at stake when it is a custom coil-over system for a $100K Porsche 993 Twin Turbo, and I did my best to keep him happy, but that does not extend to accepting a $2800.00 box of shrapnel for a refund. He did well to even recieve a partial credit, and we now have a scratched, dented, coil-over system that will probably set on our shelves for quite some time.
Sorry for all that this did not work out, but realize that anyone, at any time, can post anything they wish and (unfortunately) people will crawl out from under rocks everywhere to become party to a good, old fashioned Rennlist flaming.
I sincerely hope you don't believe everything you read on the internet.
The Rennlist is an invaluable resource for any Porschephile, and it is too bad that it is used as a forum to spread lies and grind axes, and not for the wealth of technical information and experience that it contains.
If you need performance items for a Porsche, we will continue to go above and beyond to provide the best products, the best service, the lowest prices and the best technical support available in the industry.
As for you, Mr. Alvarino, I sincerely hope you find another purveyor with whom to build a constructive relationship that will enhance your enjoyment of owning that very special Porsche.
Thanks for your attention, and sorry for the length of this post.
Best Regards,
Dan
Windward Performance Products, Inc.
08-17-2001, 10:44 PM
#2
Banned
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Waterloo, ON
Posts: 776
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You know, I read Konrad's posts and I didn't see him painting Windward as an 'Anti Christ'. Moreover, until your reply here I hadn't noticed the posts at all. But your letter here drew attention to the issue! Ironic huh? I haven't even met the man, Konrad, but his posts seem fair! Frankly, I found your reply here:
(a) used inflammatory language, "horrible condition", "skewed tale of woe", "nightmare";
(b) contained accusations of lying;
(c) contained contradiction i.e., the item was "not saleable at all" however, you admit it'll sit on the shelf for some time, hence, it's there to be resold, so obviously it IS saleable.
(d) insulting "if you can't handle that sort of rejection, then there is no shame in therapy."
I looked your reply over twice. I didn't even spend time looking it over a third time for more evidence because it's one-sidedness, nastiness and crooked reasoning made me want to puke. It's clear one party, the 993 owner, was at least 'fair'. Your reply above is, in my opinion, petty on an item of that value, especially when the item wasn't perfect anyway. So is a 25% restocking fee. That seems outrageous, even for "shrapnel" that you'll resell anyway.
You said:
"The Rennlist is an invaluable resource for any Porschephile, and it is too bad that it is used as a forum to spread lies and grind axes, and not for the wealth of technical information and experience that it contains."
I can see it's YOU that's grinding the axe and misusing the forum. And I can empathise with why this customer might have raised his voice at you.
(a) used inflammatory language, "horrible condition", "skewed tale of woe", "nightmare";
(b) contained accusations of lying;
(c) contained contradiction i.e., the item was "not saleable at all" however, you admit it'll sit on the shelf for some time, hence, it's there to be resold, so obviously it IS saleable.
(d) insulting "if you can't handle that sort of rejection, then there is no shame in therapy."
I looked your reply over twice. I didn't even spend time looking it over a third time for more evidence because it's one-sidedness, nastiness and crooked reasoning made me want to puke. It's clear one party, the 993 owner, was at least 'fair'. Your reply above is, in my opinion, petty on an item of that value, especially when the item wasn't perfect anyway. So is a 25% restocking fee. That seems outrageous, even for "shrapnel" that you'll resell anyway.
You said:
"The Rennlist is an invaluable resource for any Porschephile, and it is too bad that it is used as a forum to spread lies and grind axes, and not for the wealth of technical information and experience that it contains."
I can see it's YOU that's grinding the axe and misusing the forum. And I can empathise with why this customer might have raised his voice at you.
08-17-2001, 11:38 PM
#3
Racer
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Victoria, BC, Canada
Posts: 347
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"I can see it's YOU that's grinding the axe and misusing the forum"
Hey, I'm not taking any sides here, but he does have every right to tell his side of the story. That's hardly misusing the forum.
Are you suggesting that any comments (whether true or not) about another, have the absolute right to remain unchallenged?
-MAS
Hey, I'm not taking any sides here, but he does have every right to tell his side of the story. That's hardly misusing the forum.
Are you suggesting that any comments (whether true or not) about another, have the absolute right to remain unchallenged?
-MAS
08-18-2001, 03:34 AM
#4
7th Gear
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I am not taking any sides here either, but MAS is right windward has a right to tell his side of the story. Have you ever been in a court of law?
The guy knew he was going to be charged a re-stocking fee of 25%(even if it was after he decided he wanted to return them), so why didn't he just keep them and use that money(25% re-stock fee) to have them installed?
Why did he return them in the first place?
The guy knew he was going to be charged a re-stocking fee of 25%(even if it was after he decided he wanted to return them), so why didn't he just keep them and use that money(25% re-stock fee) to have them installed?
Why did he return them in the first place?
08-18-2001, 05:06 AM
#5
Instructor
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Pasadena, CA, USA
Posts: 188
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by OEM:
The guy knew he was going to be charged a re-stocking fee of 25%(even if it was after he decided he wanted to return them), so why didn't he just keep them and use that money(25% re-stock fee) to have them installed? Why did he return them in the first place?
The guy knew he was going to be charged a re-stocking fee of 25%(even if it was after he decided he wanted to return them), so why didn't he just keep them and use that money(25% re-stock fee) to have them installed?
Why did he return them in the first place?
Whether or not the purchaser was aware of the part-swap is a matter of debate but extremely important. A business should not change an agreed-upon business contract simply because they deem one part a good substitute for another. Nor would it simply be acceptable that the substitute parts are more expensive. In situations like these, it is up to the business to inform the customer that they are unable to supply a particular part, and the customer must agree to accept something other than that which they originally ordered.
Since businesses have to err on the side of caution, it would have, in my opinion, been better for Windward Performance to accept the return minus any parts damaged in shipping (due to incorrect packaging), and give the purchaser a credit to his account rather than store credit. If this had happened, we wouldn't even be talking about this situation.
Since we don't know whether or not the purchaser was informed of the substitution, we cannot truly judge right and wrong here.
But, I don't have enough money to buy a Windward Performance catalog let alone a full coil-over suspension for my 993tt.
So, I guess I'll shut up now. 
08-18-2001, 02:38 PM
#6
Banned
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Waterloo, ON
Posts: 776
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
True Jon we don't know all the facts. But we DO know the facts they presented here and HOW they presented them. In my view, just evaluating their letters alone, with total disregard for the transaction, Windward wins First Prize for Insult and Abuse behaviour, and Konrad wins for Reasonableness and Patience.
MAS we agree that everyone has the right to use the forum to present a CLAIM and EVIDENCE for his claim. We agree. Good.
I call it MISUSE of the forum to call someone A LIAR and to INSULT them with comments about therapy. Would you agree? If not, fine. But I think you wouldn't like someone doing it to you.
MAS you asked "Are you suggesting that any comments (whether true or not) about another, have the absolute right to remain unchallenged?"
Answer: I said nothing about 'absolute' anything.
I have fun evaluating evidence and challenging! My reply to you right now is EVIDENCE of my willingness to discuss an issue fairly! But MAS note this very important point:
I don't insult you right? Right.
You don't insult me right? Right.
Nor do I call you a liar right? Right.
You don't call me a liar right? Right.
Nor do I suggest you need therapy right? Right.
You aren't (yet) suggesting I need therapy right? Right.
We're being 'civil'. It's at the root of 'civilization'. So is fair argument.
Right.
Even in an environment like the internet we have something called "civilized" talk and "manners" - My claim is that this Windward person demonstrated none of these with his letter. Specifically:
(a) calling someone a LIAR after GIVING AWAY THEIR FIRST AND LAST NAME is an attempt at PUBLIC HUMILIATION and thus violates that protocol and thus is a MISUSE of the forum;
(b) insulting them by suggesting that because they used the forum for a legitimate exposure they somehow need therapy is a MISUSE of the forum.
I submit that CIVILIZED challenging and REASONABLE argument includes neither of (a) or (b). I'd hate to disagree with someone, voice that disagreement publicly and end up getting publicly called a LIAR or MENTALLY ILL for doing so (see (a) and (b)) by Windward in that fashion.
It's one thing to present a claim and evidence, and another to insult and deride. MAS, my only feeling on this is that you gotta read that letter just one more time, and try to see how really UNNECESSARY these comments were, and perhaps how they might be injurious or defaming to the character of the customer.
You know, I can tell when I've pissed someone off, and when their claim sucks, or when my claim hits the mark, when they start to insult and deride and berate and abuse. It's like...the most indignant person is the shoplifter who has been approached by security. Now I am not suggesting Windward is dishonest, but I AM suggesting they used DISHONEST argumentation tactics (see (a) and (b) above). No one would say those tactics are FAIR. Generally speaking, people get all upset when they're wrong and exposed - they fight back way hard...now, have you considered, given the inflammatory language towards the customer that perhaps it's Windward that cannot handle public analysis of their business practices?
All the best,
BPG
MAS we agree that everyone has the right to use the forum to present a CLAIM and EVIDENCE for his claim. We agree. Good.
I call it MISUSE of the forum to call someone A LIAR and to INSULT them with comments about therapy. Would you agree? If not, fine. But I think you wouldn't like someone doing it to you.
MAS you asked "Are you suggesting that any comments (whether true or not) about another, have the absolute right to remain unchallenged?"
Answer: I said nothing about 'absolute' anything.
I have fun evaluating evidence and challenging! My reply to you right now is EVIDENCE of my willingness to discuss an issue fairly! But MAS note this very important point:
I don't insult you right? Right.
You don't insult me right? Right.
Nor do I call you a liar right? Right.
You don't call me a liar right? Right.
Nor do I suggest you need therapy right? Right.
You aren't (yet) suggesting I need therapy right? Right.
We're being 'civil'. It's at the root of 'civilization'. So is fair argument.
Right.
Even in an environment like the internet we have something called "civilized" talk and "manners" - My claim is that this Windward person demonstrated none of these with his letter. Specifically:
(a) calling someone a LIAR after GIVING AWAY THEIR FIRST AND LAST NAME is an attempt at PUBLIC HUMILIATION and thus violates that protocol and thus is a MISUSE of the forum;
(b) insulting them by suggesting that because they used the forum for a legitimate exposure they somehow need therapy is a MISUSE of the forum.
I submit that CIVILIZED challenging and REASONABLE argument includes neither of (a) or (b). I'd hate to disagree with someone, voice that disagreement publicly and end up getting publicly called a LIAR or MENTALLY ILL for doing so (see (a) and (b)) by Windward in that fashion.
It's one thing to present a claim and evidence, and another to insult and deride. MAS, my only feeling on this is that you gotta read that letter just one more time, and try to see how really UNNECESSARY these comments were, and perhaps how they might be injurious or defaming to the character of the customer.
You know, I can tell when I've pissed someone off, and when their claim sucks, or when my claim hits the mark, when they start to insult and deride and berate and abuse. It's like...the most indignant person is the shoplifter who has been approached by security. Now I am not suggesting Windward is dishonest, but I AM suggesting they used DISHONEST argumentation tactics (see (a) and (b) above). No one would say those tactics are FAIR. Generally speaking, people get all upset when they're wrong and exposed - they fight back way hard...now, have you considered, given the inflammatory language towards the customer that perhaps it's Windward that cannot handle public analysis of their business practices?
All the best,
BPG
08-18-2001, 04:09 PM
#7
Racer
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Victoria, BC, Canada
Posts: 347
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"I have fun evaluating evidence and challenging! My reply to you right now is EVIDENCE of my willingness to discuss an issue fairly!"
Surely it would be better to take this dispute to small claims court, and away from this forum.
-MAS
Surely it would be better to take this dispute to small claims court, and away from this forum.
-MAS
Trending Topics
08-19-2001, 02:11 PM
#9
Instructor
Join Date: May 2001
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 188
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Wow! I came back from a nice weekend out of town , and read this post. I would like to clarify a few points in Dan's email which are different from the truth:
1. I never used yelled or used profanity in my conversation with Dan. It is not my style.
2. The "offer" to send non-H&R parts was never made. The parts arrived at my house and I called Dan to clarify what I received. It was only then I found out I had differnt parts.
3. I am not a certified mechanic, but there are people on this list who can vouch for my technical abilities. I feel that I am quite capable of installing a suspension system on my own. I do work on my car because it is fun, and it is relaxing to me, not because I have to. The bit about not know the car would need an alignment? Please....
4. The parts were shipped back in original containers in the condition I received them in. The mounts shipped to me were not new, and even had evidence of rust. Can't do that in a few days. Interesting that Dan mentions that he called and told me the return was unacceptable, as this was never discussed in the multiple times I called them. I have e-mails traded with Dan making reference to the received shipment and that the $2800 credit "must have gone through, and I will fax you the credit voucher". None of this was ever done. I guess these emails were not part of the documentation they submitted to the banks....
5. There was no phone call in which store credit was discussed. I was holding off on any purchase until a full credit was received into my account, as any reasonable person would. Again, I have emails where I am asking for credit back n my AMEX dating to mid May.
6. A partial credit has been received in my account, but I am still owed the re-stocking fee. This is the first time I have asked AMEX for this, as I have NEVER had problems with suppliers. No finality to this issue at this time.
7. As for the personal insults (no Honor, shame, lies, crawl under the rocks, etc.) They will remain unanswered by me.
Guys, the purpose of my original post was to share with the list my bad experience with a parts dealer. I have nothing personal to gain from this (exept maybe to get my money back). With several choices for suppliers of parts, why should anybody risk the potential trouble associated with doing business with questionable suppliers? I for one wish I had read about Jim's experience before my purchase. I will continue to share notable experiences with the list, and I hope other people will too.
1. I never used yelled or used profanity in my conversation with Dan. It is not my style.
2. The "offer" to send non-H&R parts was never made. The parts arrived at my house and I called Dan to clarify what I received. It was only then I found out I had differnt parts.
3. I am not a certified mechanic, but there are people on this list who can vouch for my technical abilities. I feel that I am quite capable of installing a suspension system on my own. I do work on my car because it is fun, and it is relaxing to me, not because I have to. The bit about not know the car would need an alignment? Please....
4. The parts were shipped back in original containers in the condition I received them in. The mounts shipped to me were not new, and even had evidence of rust. Can't do that in a few days. Interesting that Dan mentions that he called and told me the return was unacceptable, as this was never discussed in the multiple times I called them. I have e-mails traded with Dan making reference to the received shipment and that the $2800 credit "must have gone through, and I will fax you the credit voucher". None of this was ever done. I guess these emails were not part of the documentation they submitted to the banks....
5. There was no phone call in which store credit was discussed. I was holding off on any purchase until a full credit was received into my account, as any reasonable person would. Again, I have emails where I am asking for credit back n my AMEX dating to mid May.
6. A partial credit has been received in my account, but I am still owed the re-stocking fee. This is the first time I have asked AMEX for this, as I have NEVER had problems with suppliers. No finality to this issue at this time.
7. As for the personal insults (no Honor, shame, lies, crawl under the rocks, etc.) They will remain unanswered by me.
Guys, the purpose of my original post was to share with the list my bad experience with a parts dealer. I have nothing personal to gain from this (exept maybe to get my money back). With several choices for suppliers of parts, why should anybody risk the potential trouble associated with doing business with questionable suppliers? I for one wish I had read about Jim's experience before my purchase. I will continue to share notable experiences with the list, and I hope other people will too.
