OT - honda motor swaps
02-09-2002, 05:43 PM
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OT - honda motor swaps
Today I spent about 6 hours helping my friend put a new motor in his civic (B16A1 motor out of a japanese civic SiR...160 HPish, 0 ft-lb torque, into a 5th gen civic ex). Why is it that hondas seem soooo incredibly much more easy to work on than my 951...well...disregarding the complex set of tubing for the turbo? It took us all of 45 minutes to install his motor mounts/adapters (polyurethane - nice stuff), lift the motor into his car, and bolt it in (well...2 of the motor mounts). Because it is such a common procedure, there is everything necessary to do the swap available in the aftermarket. The bellhousing comes apart with 6 large bolts (we are putting a high performance clutch in his new tranny), and everything else just seems like it would take 1/2 the time and effort to do on his car.
We ran into a few problems with his swap though...namely, the old EX ECU harness doesn't fit his new ECU (but any 1990+ integra, del-sol DOHC vtec, or civic Si harness will), we are going to have to splice and dice a hundred wires to the male ends on his new harnesses that came with the motor to get his motor to work, the shift linkage is too short, his catalytic converter is about an inch too far back in the car to reach the header pipe and the flange is backwards, the rear tranny mount to chassis braket off his old car doesn't reach properly, and he still needs 1990-1993 integra half shafts. I think we will get the tranny/bellhousing back together tomorrow, as well as install his accessory belts, hoses, and maybe track down a spare harness from a 2nd gen integra (shouldn't be hard since half of his friends have a junk car for parts, and a couple of them are integras) and start on the wiring.
Well...I don't know why I posted this here, but it is kind of fun working on his car since I didn't scrape a knuckle all day and I am learning new stuff...not to mention that I kind of like hondas (especially their suspension set ups...double wishbone front and rear...even on the old CRXes)...too bad all of the cheap ones are front wheel drive.
We ran into a few problems with his swap though...namely, the old EX ECU harness doesn't fit his new ECU (but any 1990+ integra, del-sol DOHC vtec, or civic Si harness will), we are going to have to splice and dice a hundred wires to the male ends on his new harnesses that came with the motor to get his motor to work, the shift linkage is too short, his catalytic converter is about an inch too far back in the car to reach the header pipe and the flange is backwards, the rear tranny mount to chassis braket off his old car doesn't reach properly, and he still needs 1990-1993 integra half shafts. I think we will get the tranny/bellhousing back together tomorrow, as well as install his accessory belts, hoses, and maybe track down a spare harness from a 2nd gen integra (shouldn't be hard since half of his friends have a junk car for parts, and a couple of them are integras) and start on the wiring.
Well...I don't know why I posted this here, but it is kind of fun working on his car since I didn't scrape a knuckle all day and I am learning new stuff...not to mention that I kind of like hondas (especially their suspension set ups...double wishbone front and rear...even on the old CRXes)...too bad all of the cheap ones are front wheel drive.
02-09-2002, 05:51 PM
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Honda makes really well engineered stuff. I replaced the misbegotten Windstar last week with a Honda Odyssey and the difference in quality is unnerving. The Honda is so well put together I can almost forget it's still a STINKIN' MINIVAN.
<img src="graemlins/crying.gif" border="0" alt="[crying]" />
Thaddeus, kissing his last shred of 'cool' goodbye forever
<img src="graemlins/crying.gif" border="0" alt="[crying]" />
Thaddeus, kissing his last shred of 'cool' goodbye forever
02-09-2002, 06:02 PM
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Good going Thaddeus.
BTW, Honda IS the best engine builder in the world. Unfortunately, most of their cars are FWD. Also, their American arm seems to think that their cars need to be changed to suit the American market... torquier engines with less top end scream, more interior room, macpherson strut suspensions, etc.
Like I bascially said before, Lotus needs to stop screwing around with Rover? and in-house engines and start having Honda do the work for them.
BTW, Honda IS the best engine builder in the world. Unfortunately, most of their cars are FWD. Also, their American arm seems to think that their cars need to be changed to suit the American market... torquier engines with less top end scream, more interior room, macpherson strut suspensions, etc.
Like I bascially said before, Lotus needs to stop screwing around with Rover? and in-house engines and start having Honda do the work for them.
02-09-2002, 06:20 PM
#4
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Honda engines are a marvel of engineering. Perhaps too much. Most of my experience with Honda has been with motorcycles, but the same design ideas show up in their cars a couple years later. Every part, nut and bolt seems to be FEA'd to death making the strongest, smallest and lightest parts possible. The engine case bolts are hollow, variable diameter with spiral grooves on the outside for rigidity in one rotational direction, flexibility in the other. It ends up weighing 1/2 of an equivalent straight solid bolt for the same strength.
Problem with all of this engineering, is that it's a package deal. You gotta do the entire engine-swap things for major improvements. Not much a backyard hot-rodder can do to extra more from these engines.
Problem with all of this engineering, is that it's a package deal. You gotta do the entire engine-swap things for major improvements. Not much a backyard hot-rodder can do to extra more from these engines.
02-09-2002, 08:01 PM
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[quote]Originally posted by Danno:
<strong>Honda engines are a marvel of engineering. Perhaps too much. Most of my experience with Honda has been with motorcycles, but the same design ideas show up in their cars a couple years later. Every part, nut and bolt seems to be FEA'd to death making the strongest, smallest and lightest parts possible. The engine case bolts are hollow, variable diameter with spiral grooves on the outside for rigidity in one rotational direction, flexibility in the other. It ends up weighing 1/2 of an equivalent straight solid bolt for the same strength.
Problem with all of this engineering, is that it's a package deal. You gotta do the entire engine-swap things for major improvements. Not much a backyard hot-rodder can do to extra more from these engines.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Hmmm...that B16A1 was at least 80 pounds heavier than his already heavy SOHC vtec motor. I guess thats what an extra cam shaft will get you. It wasn't too heavy...4 people (one of them being me) carried the motor out of the back of a pick up truck 10 feet to where his car was, and it wasn't that back breaking. Its not like a rotary engine where 2 people can handle it with no problem though. I suppose that it is light for what it is...it was my first time carrying around a motor (with pistons...I did help my dad carry a 13B once), so I have no basis for comparison.
The engineering on the motor is incredible. I watched my friend pull the timing belt cover, pull the old timing belt, install adjustable cam gears, reset the timing, install a new timing belt, tension it, and put the new cover on in 15 minutes. I would like to see that done on a 944 in that amount of time.
Regarding back yard mechanic stuffs...there are a lot of cool things somebody can do with hand tools and parts from different motors with these cars. A popular thing to do is to take a B18(integra GS-R) or B16A (civic Si head...almost identical to the integra type R head) head and bolt it onto a 2.0L CRV short block. This will instantly give you a 180+ HP motor with much more torque than either of the head donor motors. If you install higher compression pistons, do intake and a full exhaust, and ECU work/piggyback computer (you would need the ECU for the car you took the head off anyways), you can have yourself a 240+ HP 2.0L n/a motor that will rev until you are dizzy and have semi-decent torque, and it bolts right into 6th gen civics and integras, and other hondas with little modification. There are several other honda hybrid motors, but that is one of the more popular/bang for the buck ones. Of course, since the motor is already max tweaked, you aren't going to get much of a gain by doing head work, and after you are done with hybrids, the only place to go from there requires boreing/stroking to get any appreciable gains (well...unless you get a turbo kit). Still...cool stuff, and I for one believe that honda builds some of the best if not the best motors out there...they build motors with higher HP/displacement ratios than ferrari does that go 100,000 miles without requiring a timing belt change (I think most ferraris have to be done every 15,000 miles, and you have to pull the motor from the car to do it), get excellent gas milage, and are mechanically bulletproof (I know a couple of people with 300,000+ mile hondas that have done nothing but changed brakes, fluids, belts, and shocks).
Do you think they will build a 4.0L V8 motor from 2 S2000 motors (it should have 480 HP unless they loose efficiency) and put it in the 2nd generation NSX? I think they should.
<strong>Honda engines are a marvel of engineering. Perhaps too much. Most of my experience with Honda has been with motorcycles, but the same design ideas show up in their cars a couple years later. Every part, nut and bolt seems to be FEA'd to death making the strongest, smallest and lightest parts possible. The engine case bolts are hollow, variable diameter with spiral grooves on the outside for rigidity in one rotational direction, flexibility in the other. It ends up weighing 1/2 of an equivalent straight solid bolt for the same strength.
Problem with all of this engineering, is that it's a package deal. You gotta do the entire engine-swap things for major improvements. Not much a backyard hot-rodder can do to extra more from these engines.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Hmmm...that B16A1 was at least 80 pounds heavier than his already heavy SOHC vtec motor. I guess thats what an extra cam shaft will get you. It wasn't too heavy...4 people (one of them being me) carried the motor out of the back of a pick up truck 10 feet to where his car was, and it wasn't that back breaking. Its not like a rotary engine where 2 people can handle it with no problem though. I suppose that it is light for what it is...it was my first time carrying around a motor (with pistons...I did help my dad carry a 13B once), so I have no basis for comparison.
The engineering on the motor is incredible. I watched my friend pull the timing belt cover, pull the old timing belt, install adjustable cam gears, reset the timing, install a new timing belt, tension it, and put the new cover on in 15 minutes. I would like to see that done on a 944 in that amount of time.
Regarding back yard mechanic stuffs...there are a lot of cool things somebody can do with hand tools and parts from different motors with these cars. A popular thing to do is to take a B18(integra GS-R) or B16A (civic Si head...almost identical to the integra type R head) head and bolt it onto a 2.0L CRV short block. This will instantly give you a 180+ HP motor with much more torque than either of the head donor motors. If you install higher compression pistons, do intake and a full exhaust, and ECU work/piggyback computer (you would need the ECU for the car you took the head off anyways), you can have yourself a 240+ HP 2.0L n/a motor that will rev until you are dizzy and have semi-decent torque, and it bolts right into 6th gen civics and integras, and other hondas with little modification. There are several other honda hybrid motors, but that is one of the more popular/bang for the buck ones. Of course, since the motor is already max tweaked, you aren't going to get much of a gain by doing head work, and after you are done with hybrids, the only place to go from there requires boreing/stroking to get any appreciable gains (well...unless you get a turbo kit). Still...cool stuff, and I for one believe that honda builds some of the best if not the best motors out there...they build motors with higher HP/displacement ratios than ferrari does that go 100,000 miles without requiring a timing belt change (I think most ferraris have to be done every 15,000 miles, and you have to pull the motor from the car to do it), get excellent gas milage, and are mechanically bulletproof (I know a couple of people with 300,000+ mile hondas that have done nothing but changed brakes, fluids, belts, and shocks).
Do you think they will build a 4.0L V8 motor from 2 S2000 motors (it should have 480 HP unless they loose efficiency) and put it in the 2nd generation NSX? I think they should.
02-09-2002, 11:48 PM
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480hp V8 in NSX... Oooohhhh, that would be FUN! I always felt they held back way too much on the NSX (typical Japanese conservatism and politeness). Not that the NSX is slow by any means, but it could really use some muscle. Doug Hayashi has had to supercharge and tweak his NSX beyond measure to get 400rwhp out ot it.
[quote]I think most ferraris have to be done every 15,000 miles, and you have to pull the motor from the car to do it<hr></blockquote>Yah, I was going to get a Testarossa at one point. Then I saw the service estimates for the 15K-mile timing-belt changes: $5k-8k OUCH!
[quote]I think most ferraris have to be done every 15,000 miles, and you have to pull the motor from the car to do it<hr></blockquote>Yah, I was going to get a Testarossa at one point. Then I saw the service estimates for the 15K-mile timing-belt changes: $5k-8k OUCH!
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02-10-2002, 04:50 AM
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[quote]Originally posted by Tabor Kelly:
<strong>Change a Honda Timing belt (I have done 2). You will be happy you have a 944.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Well...granted it was when the motor when it wasn't in the car. It did in fact take my friend 15 minutes to do the above stated (remove/replace timing belt and install adjustable cam gears, NTM tension it), but I don't see it being as much of an ordeal as it is in a 944. I always hear about $1000 timing belt jobs and all sorts of problems with inproper adjustment of the timing belt, and my friend did it in 15 minutes with a ratchet, metric sockets, a cricket tool, and a couple of coat hangers. If I could do that in my 951, I would be doing the timing belt along with the rest of my current repairs, but time, money, and lack of skill has limited me, so I will take my car to my mechanic to get the timing belt retentioned (its been about 15,000 miles)...boy will he be suprised when the car is in perfect mechanical condition when it comes back to him. I am drunk, made the 3 am 110 mile away booty call(and didn't particularly succeed...but...I am supposed to hang out with BPD girl tomorrow), and am ready for bed. Later.
<strong>Change a Honda Timing belt (I have done 2). You will be happy you have a 944.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Well...granted it was when the motor when it wasn't in the car. It did in fact take my friend 15 minutes to do the above stated (remove/replace timing belt and install adjustable cam gears, NTM tension it), but I don't see it being as much of an ordeal as it is in a 944. I always hear about $1000 timing belt jobs and all sorts of problems with inproper adjustment of the timing belt, and my friend did it in 15 minutes with a ratchet, metric sockets, a cricket tool, and a couple of coat hangers. If I could do that in my 951, I would be doing the timing belt along with the rest of my current repairs, but time, money, and lack of skill has limited me, so I will take my car to my mechanic to get the timing belt retentioned (its been about 15,000 miles)...boy will he be suprised when the car is in perfect mechanical condition when it comes back to him. I am drunk, made the 3 am 110 mile away booty call(and didn't particularly succeed...but...I am supposed to hang out with BPD girl tomorrow), and am ready for bed. Later.
02-10-2002, 03:13 PM
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[quote]Originally posted by ribs:
<strong>...Why is it that hondas seem soooo incredibly much more easy to work on than my 951...well...disregarding the complex set of tubing for the turbo? It took us all of 45 minutes to install his motor mounts/adapters (polyurethane - nice stuff), lift the motor into his car, and bolt it in (well...2 of the motor mounts). ... and everything else just seems like it would take 1/2 the time and effort to do on his car.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Ribs, Next time you drive your car....come back to this thread you started and drop another post to it.
Some things are easier, some are more difficult. Bottom line though....Our Porsches come stock out of the box with more performance. Period. We wont even talk about stigma.
I do LOVE the revvy honda motor though. I have raced alot of different 4 cyl sport bikes, the silky smooth honda motor was the best. I didnt like their Chassis though. It was too gushy and vague feeling. Not enough road feel. Best motors, no question.
Could anyone imagine a 2.4l 944T with a 14K redline? SWEEEEET!
<strong>...Why is it that hondas seem soooo incredibly much more easy to work on than my 951...well...disregarding the complex set of tubing for the turbo? It took us all of 45 minutes to install his motor mounts/adapters (polyurethane - nice stuff), lift the motor into his car, and bolt it in (well...2 of the motor mounts). ... and everything else just seems like it would take 1/2 the time and effort to do on his car.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Ribs, Next time you drive your car....come back to this thread you started and drop another post to it.
Some things are easier, some are more difficult. Bottom line though....Our Porsches come stock out of the box with more performance. Period. We wont even talk about stigma.
I do LOVE the revvy honda motor though. I have raced alot of different 4 cyl sport bikes, the silky smooth honda motor was the best. I didnt like their Chassis though. It was too gushy and vague feeling. Not enough road feel. Best motors, no question.
Could anyone imagine a 2.4l 944T with a 14K redline? SWEEEEET!
02-11-2002, 12:31 AM
#11
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You guys should've gotten a ride from Doug Hayashi at Buttonwillow a couple of weekends ago in his S2000. My friend got out of the car with a stiff neck from all the G-forces from braking & cornering... heh, heh...
02-11-2002, 10:30 AM
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I used to be a Honda wrench. Compared to anything European, they are a dream to work on. Everything is logical and if you have a 10, 12, and 14mm socket, you can do about 90% of the work without any other tools.
I learned to work on VW's. <img src="graemlins/crying.gif" border="0" alt="[crying]" /> 8mm on this side, hex on that side, with a 6mm 12pt in between. I am convinced that the germans have the best engineering to make a car feel right, but they must have the worst communication for putting various systems together...snap ring...need I say more?
I learned to work on VW's. <img src="graemlins/crying.gif" border="0" alt="[crying]" /> 8mm on this side, hex on that side, with a 6mm 12pt in between. I am convinced that the germans have the best engineering to make a car feel right, but they must have the worst communication for putting various systems together...snap ring...need I say more?
02-11-2002, 10:45 AM
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If I was told I could keep only one of my three cars (the 68 doesn't count) it would be the Legend Coupe.
It has 230 hp and will cruise all day at 100. I take 6 hour drives to Killington and come out refreshed. Handles real nice, is quiet, great stereo,...
All stock out of the box.
Other than at the limit, the Legend does everything the S2 or RX7 does only quieter, smoother, etc. And the seats are the most comfortable of any car I've driven.
Each car has a purpose.... but honda seems to make cars with the right balance, at least for my taste.
When i changed the tires at 60k (I have snows on steel rims) we put the car on the alignment rack for the first time. it was in spec. This is a car that is driven in manhattan, and harlem on a regular basis.
Oh yeah the 0-60 in my '93 legend according to Road & Track is 7.2 I believe.
It has 230 hp and will cruise all day at 100. I take 6 hour drives to Killington and come out refreshed. Handles real nice, is quiet, great stereo,...
All stock out of the box.
Other than at the limit, the Legend does everything the S2 or RX7 does only quieter, smoother, etc. And the seats are the most comfortable of any car I've driven.
Each car has a purpose.... but honda seems to make cars with the right balance, at least for my taste.
When i changed the tires at 60k (I have snows on steel rims) we put the car on the alignment rack for the first time. it was in spec. This is a car that is driven in manhattan, and harlem on a regular basis.
Oh yeah the 0-60 in my '93 legend according to Road & Track is 7.2 I believe.
02-11-2002, 12:35 PM
#15
Three Wheelin'
I've gotta jump in here in Honda's defense. My girlfriend has '99 Accord V6 and that thing is quick. It gets to 80mph with little effort and feels comfortable at idle or redline. I know it would dust my 951 off the line until the boost came on. The oil filter is the easiest in the world to change.
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