I diced with an S2000 on the highway between Gilroy and I-5 in CA - it was pretty much dead even - we were going 100-120 through the sweepers. Bear in mind that while the S2000 has more power, the torque is about the same. I think if he'd really gotten with it, he could have done better, but possibly not by much. I was sure satisfied, at any rate.

T

 

RIGHT, and Road & Track (read also C&D, Automobile, MT, etc) has certainly established themselves to be THE definitive source of all knowledge, automotive division.

Folks, that magazine sucks. It used to be OK, but Pete Egan is about the only reason I still pick up an occasional issue. While it's sad he went, I am glad HM III hasn't seen what the "good grey pages" now bear - each article featuring who can come up with The Month's Most Clever Metaphor and of course gems like Sam Mitani's amazing observation that he didn't like the "water-cooled Porsches" until he tried the Ruf RGT. a) How's that for jaded? b) Ever driven, or even heard of, a 924/44/51/28????

Autoweek was close but they blew it too.

Sorry for the rant but damn, just because you see someone say it in print in a "major international publication" doesn't mean it's true. The "Bible" is also a "major international publication" I might add for those that didn't agree with my post on the recent magical mystery destiny/angels thread.

T

 

Sorry for getting a little OT here, but I agree with you Tim concerning the lack of objective, quality Auto magazines. I used to read them all, MT, R&T, C&D, Automobile, Autoweek--everything. Motor Trend was (and is) the worst, Car&Driver quickly deteriorated as well(all of their writers seem VERY smug and oh-so-clever), Road&Track used to be my favorite, but they too took a nose dive, I quit getting Autoweek when Satch Carlson was arrested, and I quit reading Automobile when I discovered Excellence. So, now it is just Excellence, Pano, and 911&Porsche world--with the occasional European Car thrown in. It just seems sad that there is such a lack of quality reads out there.
Eric--just got an idea for a new thread

 

EVO is pretty good (GB) but they write about a lot of cars I'll never get a sniff of, so I don't bother too often.

Thaddeus

 

How is this for food for thought, i was in a VW Golf, 16v GTI, at VIR a couple of months ago and we went out on the track and he chased down and passed a 996, a 993, many M3's, and the list went on and on.

Does this mean that Golfs are faster than 996's? Of course not, does it mean that driver skill goes a long way? Yes. I was out on track with a new M3 two weeks ago, and he had to point me by on the strait. But that means nothing about our two cars.

There are so many factors here
who is driving harder
who has more experience
who has to drive thier cars home
who has race tires
who has slicks
and the list goes on

i'm not about street racing, so I can't comment about the civic with 2.2. I just wanted to respond to those who don't think a civic could run with a 996, it does not take a big turbo, but there has to be some other factor at work and then it is easily possible. Like Kieth said, come to the track some time. There is going to be a school in January at Road Atlanta and it would be a good oportunity.

 

When You have driven all of these cars back to back, then you will have more credability than the magazine.

 

I think one of the problems with quoting stats from a car magazine is that all things aren't equal. If you compare a two cars on a slalom, are they on the same tires? the same profile? If you compare a FWD vs. RWD, are the drivers competent to do so? Whereas I would say that there are more similarities to high performance driving than differences between the two, there is usually a FWD line and a RWD line. There is also typically a 911 line vs. all other cars. If the drivers for a car magazine take a FWD performance car and a 996 to say, CMP, are they familiar with the line a 911 takes through T4/5, T12? Are they familiar with the line a Type R takes through T5, T11? Maybe they are, maybe they aren't (and even if familiar can one be an expert at doing both - how long are they with these cars? if so, they'd probably still be wearing a fire suit on Sundays) - I am not saying much more than you need to know how to drive your car and if you do, you can much faster than a lot of cars that have a tremendous amount of straight line speed in comparisson. I say this b/c most cars that have enormous power are delivered to the US with larger front sways (or minimal rears) or have specs that dial out front camber and additional negative rear camber - they don't want someone totalling that car they haven't learned to drive.

FWIW, of-course this is only my opinion but I did sleep at a Holiday Inn last night.

 

I have driven enough of the cars over the years to find many flaws in the reporting and evaluations in these magazines.

T

 

Interesting thread guys. Seems everybody has their version of things. We all want OUR choice to dominate. Everybody wishes THEIR manhood extention of machinery could out "everything" the other guys stuff. We read,read,read, to make sure we make the right choice, or at least know what the hell we are talking about. Couple tenths faster here, little more g's on the skid pad there.

I have recently had to go through some mental gymnastics about my 968 compared to other cars. Truth of the matter is, many new cars today do a pretty good job in performance,handling,braking,etc. My buddy recently bought a 99 C-5. He's making some sound (difficult to argue against) horsepower and better car overall, per dollar points.

IMHO all of the car manufactures are learning from eachother. The vettes of old could not handle in the turns, always had the power advantage. Porsche ate them for breakfast in turns. Not so today. Hondas lack torque....today,....but that will change.
Cars are getting faster and better overall. The margins are narrowing. Quality and technology is improving overall.

I had to concede to my buddy with the C-5 as he is ordering a stage 2 kit to produce around 450 hp easily from his car, that I will HAVE to wave him by, if we ever share same patch of asphalt. I might be able to give him a good run in some high speed cornering in the 68. but why? The reality is, I like my 968 better anyway.

If Honda produces a car that can outperform my 968 in every way, I still won't buy one and sell my Porsche.

I owned an 85.5 944 before I bought my 68. I brought that car back from the dead. It was my 1st h2o cooled Porsche. The day I got in the dirty waterpump seized sun beat black 944 and closed the door I knew it was a Porsche. As I looked around the inside I could see the thought that went into it. I love the fact that Porsche makes slow and thoughtfull changes to their cars. Its a different way of thinking than Japanese cars or even domestic cars exhibit. Its deliberate and sound. Its in the design of everything in, or about the car. Others try to copy the original thoughts. But it never comes off the same. I have never worked on or driven a Japanese car that makes me feel the same way as a Porsche does.

It continues to amaze me how much Porsche has taught the car manufacturing world. What a small tiny car company Porsche really is compared to GM,Honda,Toyota,and the like. For literally decades they have been the world standard in showing the world original thought towards developing the best well balanced sports cars the planet can offer. Everybody copies them. Look at what the 944 did to the Japanese car designs of the 80s.

When I drove my n/a 944 I knew there were many cars (then 1998) that had more hp on the road. It never stopped me from feeling like I was driving a Porsche, and what that really is.

Faster, better, tricker, slicker, the others may be..........but its the Porsche badge I'll choose for me.

Hey just had to add my .03 cents.

 

this will be sooo far down the list.., but ah well... I have an 84'944. stock. i hate rice racers..., and have not yet lost a race. i have raced two acura integra v-techs, and they lost, especially around the bends. i also raced a tarus SHO, and though he took me off the line, i caught up after missing second gear, and eased by him in fourth. not many cars are able to keep with at those speeds. every time a rice racer comes next to me, they give-er. i don't bother..., cause the amount of times i would be racing..., my poor car doesn't want to be bagged so often, even though i have driven it hard and i am so surprised with delight that a 17 year old car with 225,000km can take any rice racer comin my way.., big smile on my face. to those guys who can't egg me on with a rice racer, i just smile and shake my head, leaving them feeling stupid because they know i would'vve taken them. just gimme a nice stretch of road..., see ya!!

 

Here are some 1/4 mile times for you to think about:

'83 944: 15.9 seconds
'86 951: 14.6 seconds

2000 Integra Type-R: 14.7 seconds.

Not all Japanese cars are slow.

 

'83 944 quarter mile doesn not = 15.9.
Talk to eurospec and craig..both run high 14's...ok so they're modified a little...not much...figure low 15's for a stock '44 N/A

'86 951 I'd say 14.3 or thereabouts...

True not all japanese cars are slow...but all ricers by definition of a true ricer are slow. http://www.riceboypage.com to get the TRUE ricer definition...
Impreza, Lancer evo, skyline...supra..rx-7...300ZX...all nasty fast cars NSX too..S2000...

 

...it is true that not all Japanese FWD cars are slow either.


Anyways...check this out: http://www.hondaprelude.com/resource...lips.asp?gen=4
& http://www.hondaprelude.com/resource...eets.asp?gen=4

-Kierf.
--'79 Prelude.
--preludeparts.com

 

Neither have I, since I have yet to race one. Why even waste your fuel?

My definition of a rice boy was personified by a white, riced out Honda Civic yesterday, when he cut me off in the Food Lion parking lot, driving right through a stop sign, and gives ME a dirtly look. I was even in the Integra so it had nothing to do with the 944. I just continued about my day (it was actually the same exact Civic who I posted a few weeks ago about, driving WITHOUT a hood...)

I just want to say it has nothing to do with the car, and everything to do with the attitude. If I put "Turbo S" on the back of my 944 na and drove like a maniac down a 25 mph residential road (which ricers do) in front of my house, then I'd be rice. (Going to dust off the ol' paint ball gun and take care of these guys who feel the need to speed in my neighborhood......Matt the vigalante) jk.

 

Adrial,

The '83 944 1/4 mile number comes from Motor Trend, May of 1982.

The '86 951 1/4 mile number comes from Road and Track, June of 1987.

I trust Road and Track and Motor Trend a wee bit more than Craig.