Ross

I would like all of your opinions on my current dilemna. I was going to buy an 87+951 for under $8K. At that price there are quite a few 87+ stock 951's to choose from. However I've run across an 87S for around $2K. It needs a H20 pump and has 140K miles. My theory was to buy the S do the engine work and have around $5 or $6K for the supercharger upgrades. I also would replace the S front with a Turbo front (it could use a paint job). What do you guys think?

What is the stock 87S engine output? Any advice is appreciated greatly.

My thinking is that for roughly the same money I can have a sleeper 944 that will compete with moderately modified 951S's. BTW, the car will be a daily driver that would eventually be used for a track car. Huntley and SFR... please chime in.

Ross

93 928 GTS 5sp "Soon to be gone"

aka 951

Don't even touch a 944S

John Anderson

Hey, easy now...I own an 87 S!!! I love the car...as for supercharging it...We are doing it soon.

THe 87 S has 188at the flywheel, and mine dynoed at 155hp at the rears stock,,,bone stock with cat inplace, no special filters, no FPR's, just straight from the factory stock!

Its a good motor...I did a head job when I first bought it, and since then, I just keep gas in it. Never fails, and it does have pep...not a scorcher, but the potential is there!

belz

Looking at it conservatively, how many supercharged 944s are there? How many have huntley and SFR done? How long of a history do they have with supercharging? What are the problem areas (i.e. weaknesses) that will develop? Hey my hats off to both huntley and SFR ... I'm a car guy and I think it's great what they're doing!
At this point, with my own money, I'd go with a known quantity ... the 951.
A stock 951 with chips and you've already vaulted the supercharger stage "twelve" kit (soon to be released! kidding ).
Not to menton the other goodies that come "standard" on a 951: suspension / wheels / front end - rear end / transmission cooler - LSD etc.
On the other hand ... if I already owned the 944 NA and had lots time/money/emotion invested in it and wanted to "experiment" with supercharging ... that's a different question ... I'd probably say take the risk and do it!
But if I had neither, which is your question, I'd say do the 951!

John Anderson

Sorry Belz, but our 8 valve, 944 with our level two (or rather our customers car, so I guess we do have a kit out there huh?) is making what a stock 951 with chips makes. Sorry, it'll eat your lunch all day long. Same power, less weight...see ya! Here is a post from the customer (Can be found on the email rennlist):

" After seeing the almost finished photos of my car on SpeedForce's WEB
site and then seeing the dyno charts, John and Tim kept saying "you HAVE
to drive it to believe", I said why don't I fly down for a couple hours
and do just that! As crazy as it may sound I flew from San Francisco to
San Diego for the afternoon to simply drive my car. When John picked me
up at the airport the perma grin started! The sound this thing makes is
simply music to my ears, very intimidating to say the least. Once I got
behind the wheel and got on the I 5 Freeway North I dropped the
accelerator and literally tore up the on ramp. John looks over and says
"she definitely gets out of her own way doesn't she" Oh man! This car, at
a little over two hundred rear wheel HP feels like a V8. I have driven
Victor Aranda's (formerly Tony Garcia's) 86 951 many many times. This car
produces over 325-rear wheel HP. I called Vic and told him he better by a
bigger turbo because I'll be all over him!

In all seriousness I want to say that I am EXTREMELY impressed so far.
John and Tim have been great to work with and have exceeded my
expectations. The cost is not cheap but this is the best thing I have
done so far. After originally going with a HR stage two MAF (which after
dynoing here up north) makes exactly the advertised HP, and several other
modifications, I wanted to take it further. This was the only choice. I
know the turbo members are saying for what I spent I could have got a
nasty turbo and possibly more, but I like my NA, it is very clean, fun to
drive and now a one of a kind. I am happy with my decisions.

I read Doug Donsbach's earlier post today regarding the strength of the NA
tranny, I feel that with this power and the power we will see when we drop
in the turbo pistons and run 17 PSI that a turbo tranny will be a must.
Definitely I will be replacing the clutch when she comes home. I have a
brand new Sach's spring centered clutch now that is slipping like mad
going between hard, high boost shifts (3rd to 4th). If anyone has a good
condition 951 trans for sale please email me off list at
scottmyl@attbi.com .

Overall I would like to say thanks to John and Tim and Speed Force Racing
for an impressive job. Any NA folks who want to be different and unique
this is the way to go. I know those guys are going to be swamped for a
while so be patient! Please note the usual disclaimers apply. I am just
a happy customer who is not receiving anything for this post. Please feel
free to email me with any questions."

Just another satisfied customer :-)

belz

sorry!!!????
So how many supercharged 944s have you guys done?
My point regarding a stock 951 with chips is only to illustrate that with very little modification you can take a car that Porsche designed and engineered and "crush" ... yes I did say "CRUSH" ... a John Anderson engineered 944 supercharged something-or-other.
I don't doubt you guys have poured your heart and soul into this project, and I commend you for it, ... but I"M SORRY ... I think I'd put my money into a 951 and modify it (using SFR stuff of course ) before I supercharged a 944 NA. ...hey it's my opinion ...
And as for "your" supercharged 944 NA eating "my" lunch all day long ... look on your website under customer cars and that's me, red #44, kicking the crap out of a bunch of "modified" 911s at PIR. Still wanna race!? You know what they say: Put up or shut up!
Guess I took your challenge a little personal
I haven't been on the track since Sept ... I need some therapy!

John Anderson

Belz,

Its no problem, I'm not bent, just wanted to let you know there is another side to peoples desires. The NA owners love their cars as much as we love our Turbos. So to them, bang for the buck...its worth it. I agree, it is worth it. Take for instance the customer car that we just installed the kit on. This car is imaculate, you can eat off the engine, the under carriage has not a speck of dirt or oil. The interior is perfect. How much would a 951 in that kind of shape cost him? A near perfect 951? A **** load LOL, and thats not all, he first has to sell his NA, his perfect NA, which we all know is tough to get a good price on, no one would pay what its worth. Then, after taking a bath in the sale of his NA, he has to look for a 951 in good order, that could take a while....maybe include a flight or two to check the vehicles out. After he finds a 951 as nice as his NA, he spends twice what he sold his NA for to purchase the 951. So, its not as easy as "just sell the NA and get a 951". Besides, his car is very fast. It will hit 250 at the wheels next dyno pull :-) Thats a lot of power for a car that comes in a little lighter on the scale than a 951 :-)As far as his mods cost, its a wash, just about as much as a 951 with the suspension upgrades. He has full coil over, now a very powerfull engine and he gets to keep his car. He wins :-) As for therapy, how about we buy each other a drink and lie about our high school football days LOL .

Take Care Belz!

Operator

yea and lets not start playa' hatin' the 944S again, its a sweet lil' rare piece of machinery.. yeesh

Michael Stephenson

The stock 951 has much better brakes, a stronger clutch & tranny and a tighter suspension than the stock 944S.

These things become increasingly important when talking about high horsepower.

Longtime76

I thought the 944S had the turbo tranny - I remember someone saying this on the list a week or two ago - maybe Tabor, I could be wrong though.

Longtime76

Correction, it was operatorsx. Here is the quote:

"That said, the compression ratio is higher, the weight is the same, the 0-60 times are almost ~1 second better, it has a few of the little extra's (extra knock sensors, turbo gearbox), and although I have yet to compare the S to the non S by driving both I think that the extra umph that the S gives the 944 is welcomed."

TurboTim

Belz,


I know you are a good driver. However, psi per psi of boost, the supercharged N/A will wins hands down. We have already made 182 horsepower at 5 psi of boost withnoi intercooler! A stock 951 makes about 182 at 10 psi of boost and the use of an intercooler!

About us supercharging cars.......This is our first attempt at using a sueprcharger.However, it is not the first time we have dealt with a boosted application. We have built numerous 350+, 375+, 400+, 420+ (and very soon 450+) horsepower(verified by independant dynos) at the wheels 951's! I only know of one other shop (Powerhaus) that can make claims like that! We also know what it takes to run boost safely. We have approached this whole supercharged deal the same way we went about building monster 951's and that is with great diligence, care and attention to detail. Take care.


Tim
86 951 http://www.speedforceracing.com

Wachuko

If you can, go with the 951. You will have a better car to start with (suspension, brakes, engine, wheels, etc) if you decide to make additional mods.

Nothing against the 944S. The 944S is a good car if the PO took good care of it. But it was the first implementation, on the 944, of the dual cams and, if not looked after, they can cause costly problems to repair. But that is the same with all of our cars...

There was an article in 911 and Porsche World on this.

What ever car you get, I hope you enjoy the heck out of it!!

Ross

Thanks for all of the information. It is exactly what I needed. Since the S puts out more stock hp/tq I was excited about the possibility of the SC upgrade. I like the idea of the SC with the flatter power curve. I can buy the S right now and drive it for a few months until I have the cash to do the upgrades. If I buy an 951 then I'll likely have to wait until summer before the funds are available.

As far as mods go...unless I could find an 951S for under $9K I was planning on going coil overs, S4 brake upgrades, turbo twist 17's or the flat disc's I have from my old 89 S4. Also, exhaust, AFPR, larger injectors, touring seats, maybe port/polish/sleeve later etc...

Is there a consensus on the tranny...whether it is the same as the turbo or not?

Anyone done the N/A to turbo front valence swap? Are there any good websites to see some of the body mods that are available? I've seen Gemballa skirts and they look great and maybe a "GT" front?

Thanks in advance,

Ross

93 928 GTS 5sp "soon to be gone"

belz

Hey Guys (especially John & Tim)...
I really did not intend my post to challenge the merits of supercharging or the ability to do it correctly etc. I think what SFR / Huntley are doing is great and it's guys like you that push the limits and we all benefit .. so Thank You!
Ross's original question was based on the fact he had neither a 944 NA or 951 and what should he do. I still hold to my opinion that the 951 is a better overall car and my recommendation is to start there. I also stated that if you already own a 944NA and want more power... than supercharging is probably a viable way to go. A conservative viewpoint would be to wait a little and let the "innovators" work out the bugs, and I'm sure there will be some, before jumping on the SC bandwagon. (I know you've done extensive testing but "time will tell")
The competition (huntley) made a good point on the 951 forum ... it takes more than HP to go "fast" ... after all were not builing / driving dragsters here. The 951 has already addressed these issues with upgraded suspension / brakes etc. Of course if you're going to replace all the 951 parts anyway than that may be a mute point.
John ... my parents live in S.D. so the next time I'm in town I'll stop by and buy you guys a beer and do a little bench racing!
Remind me to tell you about how the Broncos wanted me to play QB after Elway retired, but ....

remember ... when it comes to racing ... the biggest modification one can make starts with the nut behind the wheel ...