aka 951

The point is if you want to go fast you don't have to put a Vette motor in your car. 951s are reliable if done right (mine has 213k now - and yes I do run 19 psi on pump gas with the stock headgasket).

Supercharging a Vette would probably put too much stress on the drivetrain, including the motor over the long haul. Porsche motors are very well built as you know. Besides, a centrifugal supercharger is pretty much a mistake on a street car as the HP it makes is mostly on the top-end. If you want to do it right you need to go roots.

The 951 will also get better gas mileage with the original motor and the stock gearset.

While its tempting to put a Vette motor in - I don't see the point as these cars are very powerful and reliable if modified intelligently (keeping A/Fs correct, etc).

Like Brent, I'm happy with my investment. Yeah for 50k I could have a Vette that may hang in a straight line, but I've got around 10k total in mine and better handling and looks than the Vette.

The whole idea of the 951 for a lot of us is a relatively inexpensive P car that can go just as fast and look just as good as newer machinery that costs much more. To do the Vette conversion would be prohibtively expensive and time consuming, especially with the Supercharger.

Now if you have an old beater - why not.

Erick

cale

I hate to burst your bubble about the LS-1, but I e-mailed Renegade Hybrids a while ago about this issue because I was interested in the weight differences between the LT-1, LS-1, and the standard porsche 4 cyl. , and was told that the weight difference was only about 58lbs all said and done, and that they weren't going to make a kit for the LS-1 because there just wasn't enough benefit to be had from it instead of just staying with the LT-1. Here is a repost from an e-mail with Scott, without his permission, but with mine obviously:

With the weight advantage being only 58 lbs., and the cost - a bunch more, I
never got enough interest from customers in this motor/kit combination. It
would cost me a ton of money to develop an all new bellhousing and motor
mounts for this kit and I didn't see how I would be able to recoup the funds
invested. Sorry.

Sincerely,
Scott >>> Renegade Hybrids!
Toll Free (866) 498-2421

David Gunther

seems they need to update their web page. well LT1 is still a possibility and alot less expensive even though i'm not nearly as excited about it.

J. Hobbs

Dave G says:

"a used LT1 with all components... air, emissions, computer will run you $2200-2500 and the kit runs about the same but requires other pieces that can be bought from them or fabricated but can run another $2k"

That looks like $4200-4,500 total for parts

A couple posts later Dave G. says:

"ok yes it is posible to get vette horse power from a 951 for about $4k in parts if you are a mechanic, but for half of that you can get over 400 horses from the vette engine"

Now the LT1 parts cost half of $4k, or $2k. What am I missing?

I'm not taking sides on this one, but based on the numbers being thrown around here, it seems that on a strictly financial basis, the comparison is a wash.

Jon

[ 06-25-2001: Message edited by: J. Hobbs ]

Dave

OK lets see if we are all up to speed on this.
LT-1 $2200
Kit from Renegade $2200
misc. parts not in kit $2000
Result: 300 hp for $6400

Now tell me again, how much to get 300 hp from a 951? Forget the fact that the trans is geared for the torque curve of the Porsche engine, and that even a modified turbo is a closer match than ANY V8. Next forget the whole supercharged V8 (or any other major mods) the rest of the drivetrain will self distruct in short order without another cash injection. Figure 350 to 400 HP tops on the stock setup. And finally don't forget the afore mentioned PCA issue, which will eliminate one of the best avenues of fun with a 951 if the V8 is the way you choose to get this power.
Again, how much hp can $6000 - $7000 buy for your Porsche engine.


Now that 6-71 thru the hood of a 944 beater idea on the other hand.......

[ 06-25-2001: Message edited by: Dave ]

J. Hobbs

Oops, looks like I missed $2k in my analysis. Good catch Dave!

David Gunther

the 2k number was for a exsisting installation baisically what i'm saying is the maintenance costs will justify the swap.
I've already put $4k in engine maintenance in the last year. and I have a clutch job in the near future. I have no reply to the PCA rules, but I've never raced one of their venues thus I am unqualified to respond. I'm sure you would be welcomed elsewhere.
I'm going to scoot over to Vegas to the Renegade shop and take a look none the less.
I've never been afraid of being an outcast of the PCA, besides they'de have to catch me . I'd like to see a side by side caparison of torque/ horse power curves. I think the added torque and broad HP band would be quite a thrill. now loosing over 500 RPM off the top end might hurt.

David Gunther

well after further research (I looked at my Tach and looked up LT1s on the web I found the redline for both engines is in the 6300 range. so you should still get the 150 mph figure out of a 86 951 w an LT1. I don't see any major difference in top speed I personally found myself at redline in 5th at 155 mph, but you will leave the line with immediate power, have power even when in the wrong gear, and the weight difference is only about the equivilant of having an additional passenger. So I don't see the problem with the gearing.

David Gunther

also about PCA. judging from other posts it seems some of the water coolers are tired of being treated as red headed stepchildren anyway. (whatcha got there? a 944? isn't that made by Audi?)

Dave

Don't get me wrong, I would never want to discourage anyone from exploring their options. I have considered a conversion myself. To my own eye it seemed that some of their numbers didn't add up (eg weight and balance) and their marketing seemed to be marketing guy mumbo jumbo, without much to back it up. I don't claim to have all of life's answers, and thus could be way off base. If you do decide to go ahead with this swap, I would hope that you would post your thoughts along the way, including cost issues, any engineering difficulties, and the final results.

David Gunther

well like i said I'm going to go see them (renegade). i'll check them out and post what I find. I personally don't have the $7k to do it right now. and they already said that to have them do it would be 40-60 hours worth of work $$$. you get the idea. I like the idea though. I liked the Idea of an LS1 even more.

new2944

Putting aside the obvious "impurity" of sticking a small-block Chevy into their 951, I cannot believe that anyone on this list is daft enough to think that a 2.5L 4-banger pushing 350-400 ft.lb is going to last any comparable length of time.

Direct comparisons to a 5.7L pushrod engine are ridiculous! These small-block Chevy's have been around since the early 50's! Most taxi's, police cars etc. are known to go 250,000+ miles before any significant maintenance! (yes, they are lower output, but not that much)

If it was possible to get a newer aluminum-block Corvette motor, I'd hazard a guess that the weight difference would be minimal when you add all the turbo paraphernalia to the 944 block weight.


Bottom line, if you are looking at forking over many thousands simply in the pursuit of horsepower, give up the "tweaked" turbo route and go for one of these kits, your wallet will thank you!

aka 951

Like I said my car's fine. I'm now running 19 psi with a larger turbo, MAF, etc. and the car has 213k. I happen to enjoy the car like it is...I don't think there is much argument to the fact that the Porsche motor is the better engineered of the two.

Erick

Tabor

Taxi Small block 350:
250hp/5.7l = 44HP/l.

Corvette Small Block:
300HP/5.7l = 53HP/l

944 NA:
150HP/2.5l = 60HP/l

944 S2:
208/3 = 70 HP/l

968:
236/3l = 79HP/l

944 Trubo S
250/2.5l = 100HP/l

aka 951's car I don't know, how about:
350/2.5l = 140HP/l

I am just trying to make a point that they get a lot less out of that displacement.

new2944

Thank you for proving my point!

Even at 350 HP, the 5.7L engine is under-stressed by a large margin, whereas the 2.5L will be exceeding typical Daytona 500/Le Mans, output per liter. Guess which one is going to explode sooner??


Also the comment; "I don't think there is much argument to the fact that the Porsche motor is the better engineered of the two"

What a crock! You must be joking! The 8-valve 944 block is about as basic as they come, they were never designed to output the kind of power that hot rodders are attempting to make.

The 944 engine was -not- a result of decades of race-winning performances as the case in the boxer-6 design (that had 30+ years of continual development) The 944 engine was a typical "parts-bin" engine, motivated by the fiscal impossibility for a completely new powerplant design. It's 928 heritage offered no racing programme to test the design over the long term. Also, the "Cup" cars were far too late to have any significant effect on further redesign.


In contrast, the small-block Chevy has a huge racing heritage, 'ya ever heard of NASCAR?? To imply that this engine is any less "better engineered" is ludicrous, and typical knee-jerk reaction by the uninformed Porschephile.