Greg Hammond

Running your 951 engine at 6000 RPM all day isn't going to destroy it. Running a LT1 all day at 6000 without considerable attention to the interior of the engine FIRST is going to shorten it's lifespan to a few tens of thousands of miles.

You can wedge a twin turbo 3.8 liter V6 in there too, but why didn't Porsche do it?

If you want a V8, get a 928, or buy a Corvette. Otherwise, stick with a Porsche 951 engine, prep it properly, and spend the money you need to spend to get the performance you want to get.

Greg

87 951, KS 1st over pistons, APE MAF, K27/K26 hybrid turbo, everything completely rebuilt. 6K miles and going strong!

David Gunther

ok so a stock LT1 doesn't come with sodium filled valves, ie it isn't a race engine.
but the idea here is to have as much power as the car will handle without the constant maintenance and expensive parts. I believe I stated that I'm not a purist, and I will gladly take any flames for being as such. But It still remains that the 5.7 liter engine will make more horsepower and torque for less money. why do I say this? well if I keep running my engine ( it's not even sooped up) it will continue to mount up repair costs that will exceed the cost of installing and running a 400 horse LT1. If I spend the money to hot rod the turbo engine then I'll have spent more money, increased the already high wear load on it and rack up even more repair bills.

if i were to hot rod the turbo lets see what it might cost.

new aftermarket turbo $$$ $1600
new after market waste gate $250-$550
new MAF kit $1600
well thats a good start $3450-$3750
This would give me 300-350 horses for sure maybe 400 with race gas and insane boost.
but that $2500 head will be knocking on my door before long either from a timing belt or a wasted water pump, or blown head gasket.
also do you know how pissed off mechanics get when they realize half of the heat shields in a 1986 951 are welded in ? I have never before owned a car that could melt it's own oil pan gasket.

Matt O.

Wow that was pretty fun to read all that.

My 2 cents?

I have been drooling over the Renegade v8 kit for nearly 3 years, shortly after I purchased my 924 S.

I love Porsche as much as the next guy, shoot, I grew up in Germany. Pretty much I don't care how poor I am, I'll always have a Porsche in my front driveway (whether it be on blocks remains to be seen)

Anyway, what I'm saying is hybriding a 944 with a LT1 isn't all that bad of an idea. I mean, it wouldn't be like you're destroying a Porsche, or going sac-relig on the folks back in Zuffenhausen, you'd just be building your own personal rocket ship on wheels.

I think P people can get a little pissed off for no apparent reason. I love the body style of the 944, it's handling, etc, but I don't love the accelleration. My brother has a Firebird Formula 5.7L v8 and if I can take that accelleration and stuff it in my 944 (even more with the lighter chasis) I would in a heartbeat (if I had the $$ to).

Now, if I had a 951, I don't think I would. There is nothing like the sensation of a Porsche Turbo.

But I will definately some day hybrid a NA 944 with Renegade's kit, just a matter of when. I have been talking it over with my dad to try to convince him of picking up a 2500 944 and dropping a LT1 in it, but he's not really up for it. 40-60 hours, for me probably 70 hours... is it REALLY that hard to pull out an engine and put a new one in? My friends neighbor with his '61 Stingray pulled the trans and put in a new one and drove it all in the same night.

Sum it up: I love Porsche. I love horsepower and torque. I would definately do this with a 2nd car, a NA 944...

But I don't think I could pull myself to doing it with a decent shape 951. I'm no Porsche "purist" - shoot, none of us are we drive front engine water cooled Porsches!

Sorry so long,
Matt

Matt O.

One more thing:

The way I look at it, if I didn't already make my point, is that you won't be putting to death a legen in your 944.

I just think it would be cool to take the best look/chasis I can think of, and mesh that with good old American muscle.

You won't so much as be loosing a Porsche, but gaining a Firehawk.

I already decided that's what I'm going to call my 944 when I do the conversion:

944 Firehawk

I'm going to get the rear bumper like Renegade has on their 944 and slap a Firehawk sticker from Pontiac smack dab in the middle.

Just wait till some 911 rolls up next to you at a light...

ooohh....



-Matt, who in all actually is really smart when he drives, never races, and won't kill himself in a car.

aka 951

Useds heads go for anywhere from $300 - 600 without modifications. Turbochargers can run from about $1000 to way too much. Before you guys question the reliability of these motors, you must drive one for yourself and then you would "get it". No flaming intended, but you must experience it first hand.

Erick

new2944

Hoo ya!

If I ever got a Renegade kit. I'd slap on one of those Pontiac "Screaming Chickens" on my hood in a heartbeat!




944's are wonderful, but as they say "There's no replacement for big displacement!"

TurboTim

After seeing all the people who feel that the 951 is no match for a v-8, well......I have to say that this is not the case.These motors are damn torque monsters.You can make about 400 ft/lbs or torque at the crank with very few mods using the stock turbo.Personally.....I have made 420 horsepower and 450 ft/lbs of torque at the flywheel(350 horses and 380 ft/lbs at wheels) for roughly $8K.Now I understand that this is somewhat expensive but so is doing a v-8 conversion.The first thing you need for the conversion is the crate motor.I am not real familiar with crate motors but I do know that a 420 horsepower crate motor is going to run you about $3K easily.Then you need headers,a v-8 mount kit,radiator,plus all the labor of the conversion,etc.....I am sure that this will end up somewhere close to the $8k that I spent to make the same horsepower.However if you skip the v-8 you will still be using the Porsche motor(which has a dry block weight of 50 lbs or so)and you will keep the balance of the car intact.You will also have the option of making more power by raising the boost past the the 18 psi that I was running.Either way, I think you cant go wrong with the 951 motor.Afterall the 951 crank is beefier then a v-8 crank.You get forged pistons and forged rods (in certain years) along with ceramic liners in the head and stainless steel headers.The list goes on and on.

Tim
86 951 http://www.speedforceracing.com

ribs

When discussing how much a rebuild of my engine would cost, I mentioned to my mechanic that it would probably cost about the same (or a lot less if I wanted to stroke it) to put a new chevy crate motor in there. He told me he drove a renegade hybrid and the weight balance of the car was so bad that it didn't handle like a 944 at all. He said it was an abomination. Anybody ever drive one of these things before?

Matt O.

Hope I made clear I would never do this to a 951, just a project 2 grand 944.

Like I said there isn't anything like a Porsche Turbo.

When I get my 951 (some day soon hopefully), I want to do a few things to it. I want to hopefully get it running like my girlfriends' dad's 930 (50K original miles) and then I will be one happy camper.

But I stand by what I said, I think if I had a extra few thousand dollars, and already had a 944 or 951 in the garage, buying a 944 with a beat up engine and turning it into a project car would be fun.

By the way, Tim, when I get my 951 please expect a call from me!

-Matt

J. Hobbs

I think David G has an anomoly on his hands. $4k worth of engine maintenance in a year's time is the exception, not the rule. I've owned my 951 for 5 years. I spent $1k at purchase time to bring the maintenance up to date. Since then, I have spent a little over $4k in engine "maintenance" during the entire 5 years. And most of that expense has been due to "user error" (one case of an over-rev and one case of improper belt tensioning after routine maintenance). Apart from my 2 boo-boos, I've spent less than $1750 (at a professional shop) on the motor in 5 years.

For reference: stock motor, the car had 115,000 miles on it when I bought it, and had definitly been neglected (the PO had named it "Herbie" just to give you an idea...). The car as seen over 25 days of track time (not a lot, but she's not a garage queen either). It currently has 150,000 miles on it.

Obviously, a hot-rodded version would require more maintenance, but $4k/year is extreme.

Unless you are unduly cursed, your current rate of cash flow shouldn't continue.

Consequently, I don't think it's fair to use that single data point for making a financial comparison of hot-rodding the stock engine vs. swapping to a V-8.

I have a hard time buying the fact that switching to a V-8 will be cheaper in the long run.

Now, switch to a Honda Accord motor, and I think you'll see long-term maintenance costs drop

Jon

[ 06-26-2001: Message edited by: J. Hobbs ]

Matt O.

Ouch don't say "Honda" in here, that hurt my ears. Jk

-Matt

J. Hobbs

Sorry man, that was a little out of line. It won't happen again

Tabor

ribs: There was someone on 924.org who put a LT1 up front and a 951 tranny in the back of their 924. They said it handled fine.

If you use the LT1 (aluminum head) and not an older 350 with a cast iron head, the difference is not noticeable. He said it was something like 50lbs in his 924.

Ken

I just wanted to post some dyno comparisions of the two options spoke of here.

This one is off of Turbo Tim's website, and is his 86 turbo, pretty well modded:

(Tim, if you want me to remove this, just ask. I hope it's ok that i used it.)

This is a dyno posted from a guy's 92 vette with an LT1:



Tim, you say that the 951 engine is a "torque monster" and yes, comparing the two engines, the peak torque(and HP for tht matter)on the 951 is higher. But more closely examining the dynos shows that the LT1 puts out 300+ torque from 1500RPM! That's a torque monster!

I think that the two engines are working on completely different mindsets. The American way of doing things is more displacement, more cylinders, V configuration yields muscle. The European(Porsche/BMW) way is a high revving, turbocharged, inline engine yields screaming high end speed. (I realize i am making a broad generalization, but it is mostly correct.)

So in the end, i think that both engines, tuned correctly, in a 944 will yield a very impressive sports car. And isn't that what we're all looking for in the end?

dan b

as for the price thing goes i would say a creative person could build a 3L turbo cheeper than getting a LT1 and rebuilding it and buying the install kit. i mean i just hwlped a buddy build a 3L turbo . it has carello rods, knife edged crank, its ballnced and blueprinted, a garret hybrid turbo , oversized exhaust valves, all new rings and bearings, new waterpump timing belts and rollers, a wide fire headgasket, APR head studs, lightweight flywheel, lindsey racing wastgate, adj fuel press regulator, mass air flow kit(autothority), new "cup" clutch, and a throttle body from a 993(6mm larger). the cost of all this when it was all said and done(out of pocket) was $6,487.92 . what he did was buy a 91' S2 that was rearended pull the 3L and part out the rest, and use the profit to pay for the new motor. Oh buy the way the setup is pushing 546HP@5400RPM and 537 Ft LBS of torque@4350RPM on pump gas.Now he wants the engine to get alittle age so he can try turning up more boost to it! On another subject i'm currently stationed in germany ,and boy you should see it it is almost a joke all the new "joes" that come here with thier Mustang GT's, LT1 cameros and such. you see the way it works is they bring a nice care here then they try to hang with the real cars on the autobahn and in under 6 months they have a blown engine , bad tranny, and the diff going out. the american made cars can go fast but not for long where there is a German i am frends with that has a dynoed (in 89) 86' 951 that puts 339HP to the ground and he has over 500,000Km on his original engine (to get miles from Km figure 100Km=62Miles). just food for thought. Ps. he wants me to add in that he changes the oil every 15,000Km weather it needs it or not. and boy i just can't imagine working on a Lt1 in a 951 engine bay , i mean with the 4-cyl there is no room! what would it be like wih 4 more cyls? would you realy want to change the plugs in that