VirginiaF1

Ahhhh...
Sunday morning watching Rolex from Mid-Ohio, eating cinnabons, drinking Starbucks and debating oil viscosities... priceless.

333's decades of drivers without catastophy makes sense to me in that most daily drivers are not 928/944 owners driving 25-yo cars that see redline probly way more often than the millions of daily driver cars here and in OZ.

That said, the inherent high-speed, high-Gforce "air cavitation" phenomenon on our Cyls #2 & #6 that is well-documented in our engine design (944/928) makes me value the 0W, 5W cold-engine flow properties.

And so 23 years of 15w or 20w starts should show considerable bearing wear but we have no 23 year history of 0w, 5w in 944 engines to compare to...

I now believe that 5w-50 has the Zinc, the Phosphorus, the cold flow and the hot viscosity I need all rolled into one "have your cake and eat it too" oil..

Good thread! Thanks to Odu and 333 ( and others) for a great discussion..

odurandina

Vero Beach Walmart has big, 5-quart jugs of 0w40 and 15w50, so i'm all over it. Mobil 1 is the cheapest way to keep really good oil in the car. read the title of the thread.... the factory would never recommend such thick oils if the manuals were written today... it's 25 years later and there are better options offered from the modern, wide viscosity oils.

todays wide viscosity synthetics are considerably thicker than multigrade oils at running temperature, but there is absolutely no compromise in shorter service life...... an oil like a 5w50 synthetic from Mobil 1 or Castrol is even thinner at cold startup as a 5w20 dinosaur oil, but even thicker than 20w50 dino oil at running temp !

i don't race. sounds to me like 333 is talking about starting a car a few times each week and racing it (apples and oranges). but even if he's not, he doesn't have to deal with sub-freezing temperatures... what we're talking about is the kind of abusive stop and go driving in winter and summer.... in all condtions that demand a synthetic oil that won't leave sludge behind in your engines the way dinosaur oils will...

you all can have the debate of Amsoil vs Mobil 1. i see tons of Mobil 1 everywhere in the garage at Daytona for the 24 hours raceweek (15w50 oil) as far as the eye can see. i run my car at 1/2 the rpm that all the Riley and GT cars were running. . if these people trust it for 50 thousand dollar engines, who am i not to trust it for my 3,000 dollar beater. Mobil 1 is now recommending they switch to their new 0w50... as far as Mobil vs other oils is concerned, for me, it's the cost to keep fresh oil in the car, about 20 dollars less per oil change.


in a perfect world i would run 0w40 or a mix of 0w40 and the pricey 0w50 in the winter, and then switch to 15w50 or a mix of 5w50 or 0w50 and 15w50 for the summer. once my LS engine goes in there i'll probably run a mix of 5w30 and 0w40 or a mix of 0w30 Racing and 0w40 year round.




http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/..._Oil_FAQs.aspx


What benefits does Mobil 1 Racing 0W-50 provide compared with using Mobil 1 15W-50?

Mobil 1 Racing oils employ fully synthetic, latest generation, wide viscosity grade racing oil technology designed to help reduce engine friction and protect the engine under high output conditions in high operating temperatures. Mobil 1 Racing 0W-50 motor oil offers boosted levels of anti-wear protection (nominal zinc level of 1850 ppm) for extra engine protection in highly loaded flat tappet engine designs.



How will Mobil 1 Racing 0W-50 hold up in high-heat applications like turbo-charging and supercharging? What is the highest temperature I can run this oil at?

Mobil 1 Racing oils offer high-temperature protection at temperatures over 500°F (260°C) and are suitable for temperature protection where supercharging and turbo-charging is employed.



What is the drain interval with Mobil 1 Racing 0W-50?

Oil drain intervals in racing conditions can vary widely. Depending on specific racing applications and conditions, intervals of 500 miles or more are attainable. When determining the correct interval at these extreme conditions, used oil quality should be monitored as each application and environment can be different.



Do we need to run break-in oil before using Mobil 1 Racing 0W-50?

There is no need to run a special break-in oil if using Mobil 1. Mobil 1 has a robust additive system which helps provides protection during break-in as well as normal operation.



Can I use Mobil 1 Racing 0W-50 for street driving?

Mobil 1 Racing oils are not recommended for everyday general street use where vehicles use catalytic exhaust converters.



How does Mobil 1 Racing 0W-50 react to Ethanol/Methanol based fuels?

Mobil 1 oils are compatible with most fuels; however, excess fuel dilution may require more frequent changes and used oil analysis for quality monitoring.



What are the zinc levels in this oil? And how do they compare to other racing oil competitors?

Mobil 1 Racing oils offer boosted levels of anti-wear protection (nominal zinc level of 1850 ppm) for extra engine protection in highly loaded flat tappet engine designs.



Does Mobil 1 Racing 0W-50 have the same film strength as Mobil 1 15W-50?

Mobil 1 Racing oils offer the most up-to-date wide viscosity grade racing oil technology, designed to help reduce engine friction and protect the engine under high output conditions in high operating temperatures.



Is Mobil 1 Racing 0W-50 good for roller and flat tappet cams?

Mobil 1 Racing oils offer boosted levels of anti-wear protection (nominal zinc level of 1850 ppm) for extra engine protection in highly loaded flat tappet engine designs.



What are the direct benefits of Mobil 1 Racing 0W-50? More horsepower, lower temperatures?

Mobil 1 Racing oils employ fully synthetic, latest generation, wide viscosity grade racing oil technology designed to help reduce engine friction and protect the engine under high output conditions in high operating temperatures. Mobil 1 Racing 0W-50 offers boosted levels of anti-wear protection, nominal zinc level of 1850 ppm, for extra engine protection in highly loaded flat tappet engine designs.



I've been using Mobil 1 15W-50 in my race car. How are these new oils better/different?

Mobil 1 15W-50 is a higher viscosity oil that delivers a thick oil film for protection of high performance engines. While Mobil 1 15W-50 can be used and is recommended for both street and track use, the new Mobil 1 Racing oils are not recommended for general street use where vehicles use catalytic exhaust converters. Mobil 1 Racing 0W-30 and Mobil 1 Racing 0W-50 are lower viscosity oils designed to protect the engine under high output conditions in high operating temperatures. Additionally, Mobil 1 Racing Oils offer boosted levels of anti-wear protection (nominal zinc level of 1850 ppm) for extra engine protection in highly loaded flat tappet engine designs like those used in the NASCAR Sprint Cup series.
Updated July 2010



Are Mobil 1 Racing oils compatible with a wet clutch engine?

These oils are not recommended for wet clutch applications due to their high level of molybdenum.



Are Mobil 1 Racing oils the exact formulation used by the Formula 1, NASCAR, and Le Mans race teams?

Mobil 1 Racing oils are formulated with the same race-proven, fully synthetic technology used in racing applications around the world. However, typically, Mobil 1 tailors its racing oil technology based on the specifications required by specific teams and/or race applications.



You say that Mobil 1 Racing oils are not for street use. Why is that? Does that mean I can't use these oils if my race car is also my daily driver?

Automotive street use oils that meet the latest industry standards are required to have a lower level of Zinc and Phosphorus anti-wear chemistries than oils formulated years ago. The latest automotive street use engine oils are designed to be compatible with emission control equipment. Mobil 1 Racing oils are formulated with anti-wear (Zinc/Phosphorus) chemistries at twice the level of automotive street oils to provide enhanced protection of highly loaded valve train systems found in some race engines. Based on the high level of anti-wear chemistries, Mobil 1 Racing oils are not recommended for street use.



Zero weight oils are thinner. Will using a 0W oil cause excessive engine wear while racing or qualifying?

Mobil 1 Racing oils employ fully synthetic, latest generation, wide viscosity grade racing oil technology, designed to help reduce engine friction and protect the engine under high output conditions in high operating temperatures. Both Mobil 1 Racing 0W-30 and Mobil 1 Racing 0W-50 motor oils offer boosted levels of anti-wear protection (nominal zinc level of 1850 ppm) for extra engine protection in highly loaded flat tappet engine designs.
Updated July 2010



Where can I buy the Mobil 1 Racing oils? And in what size containers?

Mobil 1 Racing oils are available to buy online at the Mobil 1 Racing Store. Package sizes include quarts (6 quarts per case) as well as 55-gallon drums and full pallets for race teams and small businesses.



Our race team would like to buy Mobil 1 Racing oil in bulk. Is that possible? How do we go about arranging it?

Mobil 1 Racing oils are available to order online in 55-gallon drums and full pallets at the Mobil 1 Racing Store, which may meet the volume/usage requirements of race teams.



Mobil 1 has launched special racing oils before only to remove them from the market later on. Why are you returning to this area, and can we rest assured these products will remain available?

Mobil 1 Racing oils are being launched primarily to address the needs of today's professional and grass roots racers for fully synthetic, latest generation, low viscosity, racing technology. The online store provides access to the products which was not available several years ago.




/

odurandina

this is why i don't run a cat.

no worries about running high levels of zinc/phosphorus in the oil.


http://www.enginebuildermag.com/Arti...continues.aspx

Race vs. Street Oil and Lubricants: The Great Zinc Debate Continues...

By Brendan Baker

A stock passenger car or light-duty truck engine should purr along for years at relatively low revs without a hiccup. When the owner has finally gotten his or her money’s worth and moves on to a new vehicle or replaces the engine and starts again, the tired motor can finally retire.

In racing applications, it’s not usually so serene. Engines live on the edge. Engine builders and racers are always fighting and scratching for more power, more torque, just that little something extra, even 100 rpm off the corner more than the next guy – but it comes with a price. About the only protection these fire-breathers have from grinding to a halt and destroying your customer’s chance for glory is the quality you’ve built and the thin layer of lubricant that rides in between the metal parts.

While some engine builders may moan that changes to passenger car oils are old news, many camshaft companies tell us that there are still people who don’t know about the lowered levels of zinc and phosphorous. The American Petroleum Institute (API) sets minimum requirements for oil performance parameters such as oxidation resistance, rust and corrosion protection, wear protection, viscosity, and many more. Recent API ratings have reduced the maximum-allowable content of some elements usually found in anti-wear additives, which has caused something of a zinc dialkyl-dithio-phosphate (ZDDP) panic among engine builders and car enthusiasts.

Other than the reduction in anti-wear additive, each new API classification usually requires a higher minimum performance level. Experts say this creates an improvement in lower quality engine oils, but usually does not in premium oils because they routinely exceed the minimum performance requirements anyway. We talked to several top racing oil and lubricant companies to get the latest on the great oil debate.


APIs and Race Oil

“Because oil formulated for racing applications does not generally carry an API rating, the oil manufacturer is freed from API restrictions on formulation, and ingredients and additives,” says Chris Barker, Royal Purple. “In general, racing engine oil will be a more robust formulation than engine oil intended for street use in a modern engine. The racing oil can be formulated to whatever performance and protection level desired or attainable by the oil manufacturer.”

API oils are designed to protect catalytic converters and to lubricate stock engines. Race cars typically don’t have catalytic converters, and race engines see more rpms than stock engines. “The higher rpms of race conditions increase the sliding friction in the valvetrain, and this requires higher levels of anti-wear protection than API oils offer,” says Lake Speed Jr., Joe Gibbs Driven Racing Oil.

“While some API licensed oils may provide adequate protection in a race engine, no API licensed oil can provide the higher levels of anti-wear protection true racing formulations offer. The amount of anti-wear protection in API oils has been reduced to extend the life of three way catalytic converters. The phosphorus in ZDDP (aka Zinc) creates a protective film inside your engine. This film prevents metal to metal contact, but the phosphorus also degrades the effectiveness of three way catalytic converters. As a result, the API has reduced the amount of ZDDP in API licensed oil (specifically, 10W-30 and lower grades).”

Can you ever use an API oil for racing? Most experts say API-rated oils CAN work for racing but it depends on the specific application. “API oil can be used in some sportsman racing, but typically most racing utilizes a purpose specific race oil. Generally speaking racing oils have higher amounts of zinc and phosphorus and a lower viscosity,” says Brian Reese, Comp Cams.

Richard Glady, Brad Penn Oil agrees, “In some cases you can use a street oil that meets an API classification. The older API specification oils, such as an SJ oil typically contained higher levels of zinc than the new API specification oils. The most important part of the oil is its viscosity and a select balance of additives required to protect critical engine parts. Our high performance oils incorporate a unique cut from Pennsylvania Grade Crude Oil that has tremendous ability to cling to critical engine parts and provides outstanding shock load characteristics.”

Royal Purple’s Barker also agrees that an API oil can be used in racing applications, but the engine build, fuel type, and level of competition should dictate what you use. He says a premium oil should be used and you should tell your customer to expect frequent oil changes.

Racing oil formulations must meet the requirements of the racing market which, as we all know, is not a static target. Racers and engine builders are always looking to make more horsepower, turn more rpm. But with each increase in power and rpm, the loads increase, and the oil must be formulated to handle these increasing loads. “As a race team and engine builder ourselves, we are developing oils that can carry higher loads so that we can use thinner, more powerful oils that can handle the higher loads without increasing wear, says Joe Gibbs Racing’s Speed.

Shell Lubricants’ Mark Ferner says that API standards guarantee that the oil meets the demands of modern engines and will also work in stock flat tappet applications as long as there are no modifications to cams, heads, etc. He agrees that for some racing applications, API is okay but the lowered anti-wear protection will create problems for high-powered race engines and street performance engines and a specialty race oil is then recommended. “I used to own a ’69 Firebird,” says Ferner. “If I still had that vehicle and it had the original engine in it in stock condition with flat tappets, then using today’s GF-4 API/ILSAC oil would not be a problem and offer enough wear protection. However, as soon as you make any modification such as an aggressive cam and stiffer springs to reduce valve float, and it’s still a flat tappet, then you’ve probably started to cross over that line where you should be looking at an oil with higher levels of wear protection.”

Ferner says some engine builders turn to a diesel oil. “Because it’s a diesel oil it has higher levels of wear protection, about equal to what it was before we started reducing the phosphorous levels several years ago at the car manufacturers’ request. For street oils at the lower viscosity grades with the API starburst, the phosphorous has to be between 600-800 ppm. Before we started drilling these down it was in the 1,200-1,400 range – no one knows for sure because no one talked about it then; it’s not an industry-recognized number. But to put it in perspective, today’s diesel engine oils are capped at 1,200 ppm.”

Ferner continues: “We’ve had enough experience over the last several years to provide enough protection for most modified performance engines except for those at the very highest levels of professional racing such as a NASCAR engine. The diesel oils probably come in at just under that 1,200 ppm number, and the purpose built racing oils could be all over the place: some could be as high as 1,900 ppm of phosphorous.”

Ferner admits that 1,200 ppm may be on the edge of an engine builder’s needs, depending on who you talk to and what you are running. But for most of the grassroots racers and even World of Outlaws and others, he says research has shown that diesel oil will suffice for most of these applications. He says the only concern with the diesel engine oils may be when you are truly trying to squeeze out every last horsepower. “Some of the additives that go into diesel oil so it can do its job and keep the soot in suspension may actually cause you to leave some power on the table vs. a racing oil. If you are really trying to get everything from the engine you may be a candidate for a true racing oil: you’ll get the wear protection and a formulation optimized to reduce internal drag.”


Role of Synthetic and Mineral Based Oil

The majority of each bottle of motor oil is made up of a base-stock taken from five groups of base-oil classifications. Group I base stock is the least refined base oil from crude oil. These are typically straight-weight, conventional motor oils. Group II base stock is more refined with fewer impurities, often used to create multigrade conventional motor oils. Group III base stock is even more refined to perform at the level of other synthetic base stocks and therefore is categorized as synthetic. Group IV base stocks are PAOs (Polyalphaolefin) synthetics and Group V is essentially anything that will not fit into the previous four categories such as esters and polyolesters.

Racing oil experts say that racing itself hasn’t necessarily changed in a substantive way because of synthetic oils. Royal Purple’s Barker says, however, that the performance and protection offered by superior quality synthetics have allowed a shift to lighter viscosity oils that reduce parasitic power losses (oil pumping, friction, etc.) while maintaining long-term protection of the engine.

“There are very good conventional oils available and there are some over-priced, sub-par synthetics available,” says Barker. “Additive chemistry and over-all formulation are more important than base oil type alone. Though Royal Purple oils are built on synthetic base stocks, our additive chemistry, especially our proprietary ‘Synerlec’ additive technology, is really what provides the performance and protection. No oil should be judged by one or two components. The performance of the resulting formulation is what is important. With that said, we believe the best synthetic motor oil is better than the best conventional.”

Synthetics may allow for higher temperature operation and longer drain intervals but mineral oils have a place at the table, too, according to David Willis, Spectro Oils. “Mineral oils have made significant gains in the past several years and in some applications provide adequate lubrication at a more reasonable cost. Synthetics will outperform mineral oils in extreme heat and cold, but are not always the best choice.

Brad Penn’s Glady agrees: “Mineral-based oils, especially oils blended with Pennsylvania Grade Crude Oil provide tremendous ‘wetability,’ sticks to engine parts and offers better shock load characteristics than synthetics. On the other hand, synthetics provide better heat dissipation characteristics than mineral-based oils, especially with industrial applications.”

Just as in nearly every other aspect of the engine builder’s world, there’s no single answer. While synthetic oil has many benefits over conventional oil, Joe Gibbs Racing’s Speed says in applications where contamination levels are very high (i.e., dirt or heavy fuel dilution), a conventional oil may be a better choice. “Synthetic oils cost more, so there is always a temptation to go longer between oil changes. In most cases synthetic oils can provide extended drain intervals over conventional oils, but in the case of high contamination, the drain intervals need to be shortened – regardless of using synthetic or conventional oil. In these cases of high contamination, conventional oils can provide adequate protection at a lower cost.”


Break-In Oils

Break-in oil has two primary jobs: 1) protect the camshaft and lifters; and 2) allow the piston rings to seat to the cylinder walls quickly. “Current API oils may not have sufficient anti-wear protection and a superior quality synthetic can extend the time needed for the rings to seat, says Royal Purple’s Barker. “Break-in oil should fill this requirement. They are generally high–quality conventional oils with a high anti-wear additive content. Until API CJ-4, conventional diesel oil was a fine break-in oil.”

“We have race teams that break in their engines on synthetic oils,” says Shell’s Mark Ferner. “I don’t see any benefit or disadvantage to it. Whether conventional or synthetic, the way the other parts of the formulations are built, in our opinion, if you want to break in with synthetic or conventional it’s not going to cause a problem, as long as you have the the wear protection you need.»

Ferner points to the OEMs as support. “Corvettes come straight off the line with synthetic oil and so does the Viper. It can be done and doesn’t take any special procedure. Decades ago there were compatibility issues between synthetic and conventional oils. Today, some pure scientists may suggest you shouldn’t mix the two because each was optimized individually, but I’ve been in the business since 1988 and since that time if you want to mix synthetic and a conventional oil there’s not a chemical compatibility problem between the two.

Brad Penn’s Glady says that the purpose of break-in oil is really to control the wear process. “A well-balanced break-in oil with unique base oils and a select balance of additive concentrate helps to seat the rings quickly and completely; too much zinc in a break-in oil is not a good thing and may deter the rings from seating properly. The benefit of a specially formulated break-in oil will help to ensure the long and useful life of the engine.”


Assembly Lubes and Additives

Most oil experts say that for true racing applications, anti-wear additive products are a compromise. Ideally, a racing oil is designed specifically with the correct amount of anti-wear and other friction modifiers and things so you don’t need to use an additive in those situations. However, in street performance and break-in where you aren’t as concerned with optimizing the formulation, an anti-wear additive product can be good insurance.

Any time there isn’t a catalytic converter involved, you will benefit from a proper level of zinc, says Comp’s Reese, emphasizing the word proper. “Keep in mind, TOO MUCH zinc causes additive blocking – in other words, too much zinc will get in the way of the other additives from doing their respective jobs. The market has gone overboard with the zinc fixation. Don’t OD on zinc.”

Engine Pro’s Don Weber says his group offers a variety of additives and assembly lubes that fit most engine builder’s needs. One of these is a traditional zinc additive, which contains some of the highest concentrations of zinc and phosphorous of any brand of additive. It is compatible with any oil, whether it is synthetic or mineral based so that engine builders and their customers can choose their favorite brand of oil to use with the additive.

Another option is an assembly lube that contains moly. It adheres well to metal surfaces and has a compound in it that makes it sticky and comes in a squirt bottle to make it convenient to lubricate the parts thoroughly. One product Engine Pro offers contains no zinc and is safe to use in vehicles with catalytic converters. “There are many vehicles from 1975 until the 1990s that had both a catalytic converter and flat tappet cams. With its re-engineered calcium petroleum sulfonate complex, this is an alternative to zinc and phosphorous. It’s more for the weekend racer with a car or truck that has a converter.”

Steve Mugerauer from Howards Cams says, “We, like many others, offer a few different brands of racing and break-in oils, and they do a really good job, depending on your brand preference. The reason we decided to offer our own lube is because it got to be really confusing with the various bottle sizes. We found out that the majority of the big guy’s break-in formula was mostly mineral oil. So we have several reasons why ours is a good choice for engine builders. One, is the concentration of ZDDP and Phosphates. Max Z has 60,000 ppm of ZDDP and 42,000 ppm of phosphates. It comes in a four oz. bottle, which will treat six quarts, so it’s the additive and not the mineral oil you are paying for. It’s one of the highest amount of those additives that you can put in an engine. The second reason is we are the only ones who put 10,000 ppm of moly in our formula. It’s a real fine molybdenum disulfide. The third reason we think engine builders will choose Max Z is the price. It’s very affordable and you get the maximum amount of protection.”

Royal Purple offers Max-Tuff, an ultra-tough, synthetic lubricant designed for use in reassembling repaired equipment. Barker says Max-Tuff utilizes durable synthetic molecules that adhere to metal surfaces and create an extremely strong barrier between surfaces. This minimizes the possibility of metal-to-metal contact while providing excellent protection against rust and corrosion to both ferrous and nonferrous metals.


New GF-5 Oil Standards

In the Fall of 2010, a new oil spec called GF-5 is being introduced. The new standards will increase fuel economy and emissions as well as make it more compatible with E85 ethanol. Because experts say it will not have been tested in race applications, however, it’s critical that the engine building community is aware of the changes. The wear protection has not been lowered but the types of zinc and phosphorous may be altered to meet the new requirements.

“The current oil classifications are API SM/ILSAC GF-4 for spark ignited gasoline engines,” says Joe Gibbs’ Speed. “For the 2011 model year, GM is introducing dexos 1, a global engine oil specification for all GM cars and trucks. The new dexos 1 oil standard will require the use of synthetic base stocks, and it requires increased protection for catalytic converters compared to API SM. As a result, API is introducing a new oil standard – API SN / ILSAC GF-5. These new standards require improved engine cleanliness (more detergents and dispersants), improved fuel economy (lower viscosity base oils) and increased protection for three way catalytic converters (restriction on the type of ZDDP used).”

If your engines aren’t ready for retirement yet, it pays to pay attention to what keeps them running smoothly and efficiently.

odurandina

why all the crazy love for Mobil 1 ??

because i can get 0w40, 10w40 and 15w50 for $5.26/quart in the 5 litre jug size, at the Walmart superstores in Vero Beach, Florida and Marlboro, Massachusetts.





the reasons for reducing zinc/phosphorus in the oils was due to pressure from the auto industry and EPA. if you're running any euro 0w40, 0w50, 5w50, or 15w50, M1 oils, there's plenty of zinc and phosphorus inside.



oil/SAE grade ................... visc @ 104° F............................. visc @ running temp / 212°F


Redline 15w50 ....................... 138 ............................................... 19.6

Mobil 1 15w50 ....................... 125 ............................................... 18

Mobil 1 5w50 Rally Oil ............. 108 ............................................... 17.5

Mobil 1 0w50 Racing Oil .......... 100 ............................................... 17.2

Mobil 1 10w40 ........................ 96 ................................................ 14.7

Mobil 1 0w40 .......................... 75 ................................................ 13.5


oils for our current, American cars (with levels of zinc/phosphorus for increasing the longevity of the catalystic converters).....

0W-20, 0W-30, 5W-20, 5W-30, 10W-30, 5W-20 Extended Performance, 5W-30 Extended Performance, 10W-30 Extended Performance all have 800 ppm Phosphorus, 900 ppm Zinc:

5W-30 High Mileage, 10W-30 High Mileage, 10W-40 High Mileage - 900 ppm P, 1000 ppm Zn.



oils for our Euro engines (all have plenty of zinc and phosphorus);


0W-40, 5W-50 1000 ppm P, 1100 ppm Zn.

15W-50 - 1200 ppm P, 1300 ppm Zn.

0W-30 Racing, 0W-50 Racing - 1750 ppm P, 1850 ppm Zn


i'm incredulous about anyone talking about M1 and low levels of zddp.


.

333pg333

You are indeed the 'Cut n Paste' king OD. lol.

I repeat, why if all these terrible dino 20w/50 oils that have been used for decades are so bad, why aren't we seeing major catastrophic failures from them over the last 25+ years on our cars???

Conversely, why have we seen premature wear and failure from people using the M1 product??

Just a damn crazy conspiracy I guess....

odurandina

because, when used in North America, the thick, crappy conventional oils with their viscosity conditioners quickly wear out and die... this doesn't bode well in our cold fall, winter and spring climates.. the result is increased wear, oil deposits which leads to sludge.....

M1 oils can be found in race cars all over the place. i've seen cases of the stuff in the garage at Daytona as well as some of the other oils mentioned here.... as i have mentioned, if i was going to start my car and just drive it from Boston to L.A. in the dead of winter without ever shutting the car off, i'd just as soon drop a case of Amsoil 15w50 oil in the crankcase and be off.... but there's absolutely nothing wrong with Mobil 1 oil for our old beaters....


in any event, i'm off to start a new thread (after the Fema Camps and the Od/JFK files threads).... the final installment will tie American Political intrigue of the 1930s, the new, national security state of the '40s and 50s, Big Oil, the JFK hit, Watergate... the Bush presidencies, and finally the advancing Fema project — together...

have fun with the race cars.

od.

odurandina

and you should also put conventional oil in your Ferrari's, Lamborghini's, etc....


but seriousy,

this isn't Australia. this is North America. it gets cold here.

there are oil conditioners in conventional (multi-grade) oils that allow it to flow at cold temperatures.

in an engine such as ours, the thinner part of the oil burns off rather quickly and what you're left with is even thicker oil at startup than what you started with.... let me repeat for the 400th time. this isn't Australia. this is North America. it gets cold here. so with oil that rapidly gets thicker in our crankcase, this problem will lead to increased wear even sooner at startup.

i like to keep my oil in for up to 12 k miles. i do that by changing the filter halfway through the service interval of the oil.

my engine has 154 k miles on it and it's had Mobil 1 all it's life and still barely burns a drop of oil.

odurandina

some of the guys that post here live in the Great White North. if i lived in Alaska i'd run even thinner oil like Mobil 1 0w30 Racing Oil in the winter. i probably wouldn't beat on the engine running so thin an oil, but i'd run it normally with zero worries knowing that it would flow to the bearings sooner than the thicker, 0w40, but still protect the engine at running temp.


oil/SAE grade ................... visc @ 104° F............................. visc @ running temp / 212°F


Redline 15w50 ....................... 138 ............................................... 19.6

Mobil 1 15w50 ....................... 125 ............................................... 18

Mobil 1 5w50 Rally Oil ............. 108 ............................................... 17.5

Mobil 1 0w50 Racing Oil .......... 100 ............................................... 17.2

Mobil 1 10w40 ........................ 96 ................................................ 14.7

Mobil 1 0w40 .......................... 75 ................................................ 13.5


Mobil 1 0w30 .......................... 63................................................ 10.9 (still thick enough for normal driving)


we should be wary about running any oil lower than 10 weight at running temp. so i would draw the line here.


Mobil 1 0w20 .......................... 45................................................ 8.7



here's a comparison of 0w20 synthetic vs 0w40 at -58° F.






would be pretty scary to have conventional oils in these bottles, and even worse in your engine.

Darwantae951

333pg333

Nice pic Darwin!

Od, I realise it gets cold in the US...it actually also gets cold in parts of Australia too btw. I'm not saying that in very cold conditions you should be using 20w/50 year round either. However you are suggesting that we never use these oils like VR1 and I am inclined to disagree.

ernie9468

Lol why but why was I so stupid using dino 20w50 in my ex 944 for 26 years without any problems & why do I still do it in my beloved 968.How stupid can you get?Someone please tell me.

odurandina

yes, Ernie, my oil kicks yours oils butt.

running 0w50 is better than 20w50 in cold weather. ask 500 automobile and lubrication engineers.

you're a nice guy, but you lose. and yes i run 15w50 in the summer. but 20w50 is too thick for street cars.

it's goofy to run an oil that pours like molasses at 70° F.

and there's not an auto or lubrication engineer on the planet that would reccommend running an oil that thick for the street.

and they woudl be correct. it's too thick at startup. even on a 70° F morning.


however, for an old P-car beater that burns oil,

i would probably run 20w50 in the summer and maybe, like 5w50 in the winter.

odurandina

btw, i'm not aware that Mobil 1 even makes 20w50 for automobiles.

but, from Redline's own website this is what they say about running 20w50;


from Amsoil's website;



so to put this one to bed once and for all, would i run 20w50 in a healthy engine ?NO.

and in the Great White North, TRIPPLE NO with sugar on top.


would i run it in a heavily worn engine ? in the summer, sure.

ernie9468

Cool down young man ,& no you haven't got me beat because I don't drive my car in the winter.It's in storage from December to April.And like you say let's put this to bed once and for all, I will not use your sewing machine oil in my healthy 968.And also wonder how many of those so call oil engineers drive old 944s & 968s.And just to prove my point here a pic after a hard run.I do consider my motor very healthy and I dare you to show me your 968 instrument cluster with the exact same figures ,temp a hair over the 1/4 mark---idling at 925 RPM--- oil pressure at 3 3/4 bars Oil Dino Valvoline VR1 racing oil 20W50.And if it's not a sign of an healthy motor than what is?And please don't put your foot on the gas pedal to bring all those figures up to par I didn't.Btw thank's OD for calling me a nice guy I do appreciate.

odurandina

your engine is just past break in.' as far as cooling down,

i'm sipping a piña colada with only 1/2 a shot of rum here in the Sunshine State watchin' sportscenter.